Rhaegar and Lyanna: what do we even really know?

[roxWolfox]

Shame, he told the world Lyanna was hotter then his wife. Why do think the dragonknight beat snot out The Unworthy's champions during tourneys? Because crowning one of the unworthy's lovers would have shamed the Unworthy's wife and Aemon's sister. That is a stretch, the kidnapping happened a whole six months after the tourney and no evidence Lyanna was the knight. He had no idea if he was right or not, if prophecies are true it would come true on it's own. Yeah we do. Rhaegar takes Lyanna, Brandon search for them to axe murder him, Aerys capture him and dad, they die. War starts. And who started the whole thing? Rhaegar. Ned doesn't hold grudges ,him holding no grudge to Rhaegar should not be used to show good character for Rhaegar, that is my point, and my point the whole time.

Is the first bolded part about characters in another set of books (i.e. the Dunk and Egg series)? If so, I haven't read anything other than ASoIaF, so I can't respond to that as I'm not sure who Aemon's sister is. Sorry. :P

Ned does hold grudges. Reread the parts where he thinks of the Lannisters, Jaime especially, and the Mountain.

Rhaegar took a girl rather you are lowborn or highborn or a King or heir to a throne that is not a big enough crime/act for a civil war to erupt from that mere action.

Aerys, Robert, Ned, Hoster, Jon, are more responsible for Robert's Rebellion. Rhaegar was away from it all with probably a handful of men and the ones that I mentioned had thousands of men at their command they should have acted more responsible.

Lyanna and Rhaegar still acted irresponsibly and should have gotten consequences but their consequences did not fit their crime if anyone can all it that.

I agree in that they were better educated politically-speaking, so should have known of the possible ramifications. And the way Rickard and Brandon died just underlines that.

[Chebyshov]

Rhaegar and Lyanna set everything in motion. They're more responsible than anyone with the possible exception of Aerys.

The last thread on this got locked...let's not go there again. We're missing so many details that I'd be hesitant to rush to any judgement calls.

[WhiteOwl18]

Let's please not play the blame game again. It's not the purpose of this thread and the last two threads where that happened got locked, as Chebyshov mentioned. Let's not do that.

[Lee-Sensei]

The last thread on this got locked...let's not go there again. We're missing so many details that I'd be hesitant to rush to any judgement calls.

Don't tell me. Tell The Wolves.

[E-Ro]

Rhaegar took a girl rather you are lowborn or highborn or a King or heir to a throne that is not a big enough crime/act for a civil war to erupt from that mere action.

Aerys, Robert, Ned, Hoster, Jon, are more responsible for Robert's Rebellion. Rhaegar was away from it all with probably a handful of men and the ones that I mentioned had thousands of men at their command they should have acted more responsible.

Lyanna and Rhaegar still acted irresponsibly and should have gotten consequences but their consequences did not fit their crime if anyone can all it that.

Oversimplification If ever I saw one. Rhaegar did not just "take a girl" he took The Lord paramount of the norths daughter. Who also happened to be betrothed to another lord paramount. Not only that, but he pissed on the honor of his wife's family, and made a dynastic civil war between heirs a very real possibility even without Roberts rebellion. What rhaegar did was far more serious then just having sex with a random woman, I mean FFs he disappeared for almost a year.

ETA: sorry, no blame game. I'm contrite.

[The Wolves]

Oversimplification If ever I saw one. Rhaegar did not just "take a girl" he took The Lord paramount of the norths daughter. Who also happened to be betrothed to another lord paramount. Not only that, but he pissed on the honor of his wife's family, and made a dynastic civil war between heirs a very real possibility even without Roberts rebellion. What rhaegar did was far more serious then just having sex with a random woman, I mean FFs he disappeared for almost a year.

Yeah I will try and not do the blame game in this thread because posters have asked me too, but I will try to reply back to you without going there. But we should talk about this in another thread

[butterbumps!]

@ Butterbumps

It is my understanidng that Brandon challenged Rhaegar to a duell and that the "come out and die" part was the colorfull summary by Jaime, conveying perhaps the tone in which the challenge was issued. The fact that he had heirs with him (the heir to the Vale no less), suggests that this was much more formal than the supposed mad one-man invasion it is made out to be.

Also, where does the assumption of Benjen's involvement stem from?

I'm afraid we know much less. We know that Lyanna disappeared from somewhere in the Riverlands, she turned up a year later in the custody of three Kingsguard knights in the ToJ, that she was believed to be abducted by Rhaegar and that Rhaegar himself was absent during most of the rebellion and the events preceding it.

Yes, it's possible that Jaime's version is a colorful summation, and that Brandon had attempted to conduct the affair more diplomatically. But the thing that rubs me the wrong way about that interpretation is the story Jaime is telling about Aerys-- he's revealing Aerys' monstrosity, such that if Brandon truly hadn't charged in that way, portraying it in this light would seem to render Aerys' response slightly less disproportionate. I mean, if Brandon had gone in reasonably, it would make Jaime's story about Aerys that much more egregious and impactful, I'd think. I'm not discarding this possibility, only that I'm a bit skeptical.

I'm not assuming Benjen was complicit in the abduction, though. It sounds like he was complicit in the KotLT incident, though, based on how he offered "the little crannogman" help in finding equipment: "The wolf maid saw them too, and pointed them out to her brothers. ‘I could find you a horse, and some armor that might fit,’ the pup offered. The little crannogman thanked him, but gave no answer." I brought up Benjen's role as an unknown-- we have some indication that he and Lyanna were partners in crime about other things, so it might come to pass that he knew of her plans to leave, or was meant to be a message-bearer, or perhaps played some role in this in some way.

[roxWolfox]

Oversimplification If ever I saw one. Rhaegar did not just "take a girl" he took The Lord paramount of the norths daughter. Who also happened to be betrothed to another lord paramount. Not only that, but he pissed on the honor of his wife's family, and made a dynastic civil war between heirs a very real possibility even without Roberts rebellion. What rhaegar did was far more serious then just having sex with a random woman, I mean FFs he disappeared for almost a year.

ETA: sorry, no blame game. I'm contrite.

Again, we only have mostly hearsay as evidence, which adds fuel to the 'rumour mills bonfires', but nothing else. Did Rhaegar 'kidnap' Lyanna? Did she run away with him willingly? Did they elope? We don't know for certain. Those of us with naturally doubting minds would rather have conclusive evidence rather than second-hand tales.

[E-Ro]

Again, we only have mostly hearsay as evidence, which adds fuel to the 'rumour mills bonfires', but nothing else. Did Rhaegar 'kidnap' Lyanna? Did she run away with him willingly? Did they elope? We don't know for certain. Those of us with naturally doubting minds would rather have conclusive evidence rather than second-hand tales.

Your making me being contrite sooooooo much more difficult.

My point was that no matter what, whether it was kidnapping or consensual rhaegar could have not done it. Even if lyanna was throwing herself at him, he could have said no. I'm not blaming anyone, this is fact. Rhaegar could have avoided this.

[roxWolfox]

Your making me being contrite sooooooo much more difficult.

My point was that no matter what, whether it was kidnapping or consensual rhaegar could have not done it. Even if lyanna was throwing herself at him, he could have said no. I'm not blaming anyone, this is fact. Rhaegar could have avoided this.

^_^

E-Ro, your passion is so legendary on this site that I've seen mention of your Baratheon love on other sites.

In no way am I trying to demean your passion ... in fact, I can't help but admire/respect and find most of your posts highly entertaining. Fight the good fight on behalf of Stannis, I say.

Though I can't help but :bowdown: to your devotion, this thread is for discovery/interpretation without prejudice.

I humbly apologise for insulting you in my previous post.

Looking at the events from a different angle, what if Rhaegar was trying to save Lyanna's life?

[Anath]

Looking at the events from a different angle, what if Rhaegar was trying to save Lyanna's life?

Save her life from who? He was supposed to be the only one who could have told Aerys who the KotLT was.

Or are you implying that Lyanna's life was in danger from her father, brother, and betrothed?

[Chebyshov]

Looking at the events from a different angle, what if Rhaegar was trying to save Lyanna's life?

He saved her from the life of a trophy wife to a rather lecherous lush, but there's really no evidence she was in any danger. And pretty sure she could handle Bobby herself.

[butterbumps!]

Save her life from who? He was supposed to be the only one who could have told Aerys who the KotLT was.

Or are you implying that Lyanna's life was in danger from her father, brother, and betrothed?

He saved her from the life of a trophy wife to a rather lecherous lush, but there's really no evidence she was in any danger. And pretty sure she could handle Bobby herself.

Aerys challenged the other lords to unmask the knight that evening, so he was already drumming up interest in the scandal. After the KoLT seemed to disappear, Aerys ordered Rhaegar to find him as a formal mission, but it seems that Rhaegar wasn't the only one looking out for him (Aerys was furious, and I'd assume many lords would see this as an opportunity to curry favor).

I'm not sure how I feel about this possibility-- that the abduction was really a rescue mission of the KotLT, who'd be caught-- but that's the basic idea.

[Chebyshov]

Aerys challenged the other lords to unmask the knight that evening, so he was already drumming up interest in the scandal. After the KoLT seemed to disappear, Aerys ordered Rhaegar to find him as a formal mission, but it seems that Rhaegar wasn't the only one looking out for him (Aerys was furious, and I'd assume many lords would see this as an opportunity to curry favor).

I'm not sure how I feel about this possibility-- that the abduction was really a rescue mission of the KotLT, who'd be caught-- but that's the basic idea.

I guess it's possible, but then the whole "then they disappeared for a year" part doesn't really follow. But I also like to give Lyanna more agency in this scenario.

[roxWolfox]

Save her life from who? He was supposed to be the only one who could have told Aerys who the KotLT was.

Or are you implying that Lyanna's life was in danger from her father, brother, and betrothed?

We already know Varys was whispering into Aerys' ear about conspiracies (Rickard's southron ambitions). It is simply conjecture, I know, but if Varys whispered of conspiracy, would he keep quiet about something as volatile as the KotLT being a Lyanna when Aerys had already made it clear that the mystery knight was an enemy? How would Varys find out? Traveling through the secret passages and overhearing private conversations would be a guess.

We just don't know enough at this point.

1. Mystery knight shows up at the Harrenhal tourney and ticks off a paranoid Aerys, who was in attendance because of Varys' 'whispers'.

2. Mystery knight disappears, and Aerys orders a hunt/search for said knight, Rhaegar reports back having found a shield and nothing else

3. Rhaegar chooses Lyanna Stark as his QoLaB

4. Rhaegar and two KG find Lyanna (somewhere) and then all four disappear

5. Brandon travels to KL and commands the prince to fight and die (why not travel to Dragonstone, where the Crown Prince resides?)

6. Aerys kills Brandon and Rickard and demands Robert, Jon, and Ned's presence in KL

7. Robert and Jon and Ned call their banners and gain Tully support through marriage

8. Robert kills Rhaegar

9. Ned finds Lyanna guarded by three KG at the tower of joy

These are the facts, what we know for a certainty.

[butterbumps!]

I guess it's possible, but then the whole "then they disappeared for a year" part doesn't really follow. But I also like to give Lyanna more agency in this scenario.

Well, my suspicion had been that this all started because Lyanna was trying to escape the marriage. I'd skewed toward the idea that Lyanna and Rhaegar initially had platonic interest-- that is, she was appealing to him, as the Crown Prince, about her betrothal, with the hope that as the Crown Prince he might be able to effect a different outcome or something. However, I think at some point in this, they did "fall in love" and choose to stay together for something more than platonic.

The same progression could be read of the "rescue" scenario-- that is, it may have begun as a way of simply hiding her so that she wasn't found out or something, and that at some later point, they'd fallen in love/ worked on prophesy fulfillment.

[Ser Eric]

Do we even know if Varys was at Harrenhall?

[Chebyshov]

Do we even know if Varys was at Harrenhall?

I don't think he was. We just know Varys encouraged Aerys to go:

"The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit

from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys

became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to

give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not

set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany

Prince Rhaegar to Har renhal, and everything had gone awry from there."

[Anath]

Another thing we know: Rhaegar thought he needed a new womb to give him a third child and the number of R+L = J threads indicates that he found one in Lyanna.

Doesn't fit with nobly saving her just for the sake of saving her, no dragons or wombs attached.

[Chebyshov]

Another thing we know: Rhaegar thought he needed a new womb to give him a third child and the number of R+L = J threads indicates that he found one in Lyanna.

Doesn't fit with nobly saving her just for the sake of saving her, no dragons or wombs attached.

There's other readings of that "the dragon must have 3 heads" thing, because he's talking directly to Dany. If Aegon is real, then he could be saying to Dany "you need to find the 3rd head," implying she and Aegon are heads #1 and #2. And Jon is probably #3. But that's just one option.