Rhaegar and Lyanna: what do we even really know?

[Wmarshal]

^ Yea that's the exact point, your talking about Ned's (and Rhaegars) character, which have nothing to do with analyzing what we know. And its pretty obvious that there's no point in a discussion with a person who thinks Ned wasn't a good person, your clearly just trying to be different at that point an arguing for arguments sake.

Hey everybody come have an intelligent debate with AegonsBannerman, a kid who says the fact that Ned never specifically displayed animosity towards Aerys during the specific moments we're in his POV shows a lack of character

I am not trying to argue that was Ned was terrible person but that your argument that his comment showed any form of good character to Rhaegar. Do you actually read posts or just pick and choice what to argue? I explained myself twice to you, Ned is awesome but him not hating someone isn't a boost character wise for said character, but continue stating how I think old Ned is bad.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Which would make no sense seeing as Rickard betrothed Lyanna to Bobby.

He could have sent Lyanna to some place with Rhaegar as an escort. What better escort than the Prince and two of his KG? Maybe Lyanna was meant to take a message somewhere, if neither Bran or Ned were around.

IF Rickard indeed was plotting something, sending Lyanna would raise not suspects: she was traveling South to visit Rhaegar's cousin.

[Wmarshal]

He could have sent Lyanna to some place with Rhaegar as an escort. What better escort than the Prince and two of his KG? Maybe Lyanna was meant to take a message somewhere, if neither Bran or Ned were around.

IF Rickard indeed was plotting something, sending Lyanna would raise not suspects: she was traveling South to visit Rhaegar's cousin.

Who? They disappeared from the face of the Earth. No one disappears for a year quietly.

[E-Ro]

There were days between Riverrun and KL, so yea, time to cool off about the initial shock (no matter what version of the story he heard), which is part of why I think he had the notion that there was something very urgent about the situation-- like, he believed he had to act at once, without communicating with the rest of his family, gathering more men, or seeing an alternative to this.

Interesting.

btw, brah-- I think it's understandable and reasonable that no matter what Brandon heard, he'd be angry about this. My contention is how egregious the entire reaction is, including showing up in the enemy's castle trapping himself, without men, without confirmation of Rhaegar's whereabouts, demanding Rhaegar's death, and not inquiring about Lyanna. That to me suggests he was under the impression he needed extreme urgency and something pretty salacious.

I agree on this definitely. What sort of set me off in the other thread, was the Brandon and Robert bashing. These guys are great, and they get way too much hate.

If anything, there is not enough hate on Rhaegar the dumb Targaryen and Lyanna the dishonorable Stark. Because of 78 threads of R+L=J equation threads.....

lol, I like this post. Both of them fucked up royally.

[Lummel]

This has to be a key topic in discussing ASOIAF because it provides the starting point and the energy for the whole story (with the exception of Melisandre and the Ironborn) so far. Everything that we see is a consequence directly or indirectly of what happened between Lyanna and Rhaegar. Unsurprisingly, GRRM is therefore coy about revealing too much information.

The first view we get is in AGOT and comes from King Bob and that is the sexual passion angle, Rhaegar the rapist. That is persistently undercut, subtly, by The Ned who doesn't think of Rhaegar in those terms even though he never disagrees with Bob directly.

The second major theme is the prophecy angle which comes from Daenerys' vision at the House of the Undying, but since we don't know the full prophecy we can only assume that it was a factor in Rhaegar's motivation. Prophecy is also undercut in the narrative. We are told that it is dangerous, untrustworthy, completely open to interpretation and misleading!

Then we get the political angle, very strongly developed in ADWD, that there was a conspiracy or an alliance between Arryns, Tullys, Baratheons and Starks. At the same time, there were tensions between Rhaegar and Aerys II, so clearly there are all kind of political repercussions following on from Lyanna and Rhaegar's actions. Are Lyanna and Rhaegar trying to break up or prevent that alliance or are they (or one of them) trying to break into it? ie was Rhaegar thinking of, or trying to declare himself the chief rebel and was that the reason why Aerys II could be persuaded to travel to Harrenhall? ETA in line with a political reading the man seizing politically significant woman pattern is reversed in AGOT when Catelyn seizes Tyrion. Tyrion is at the centre of Catelyn's allegations even as Lyanna was at the centre of the proposed system of political marriage alliances.

Was Lyanna a willing or unwilling partner in any of this? She knows her own mind as far as we can tell and seems uncommonly sensible out of her generation, but I can only base that on one conversation between her and The Ned. She was a renowned horsewoman, so somebody who possibly was more able than most to escape or evade trouble.

Nothing seems to be a perfect fit.

Even if we take the Tourney at Harrenhall we can look at it from multiple angles. Crowning Lyanna as an act of romantic feeling, as a sign that he know who she was, as a political signal. The Knight of the Laughing Tree is an enemy, apparently to Aerys II, but what does the laughing tree represent? A mystery knight but a mystery knight aligned with the old gods - is there a prophetic angle to that, particularly considering the influence of the woodswitch and prophecy to earlier Targaryens? Or a political angle, the knight commands that the squires be taught to behave correctly - who else present at the tourney of Harrenhall was not behaving correctly in their role if not King Aerys II? The Mystery Knight is a socially critical figure, holding up the established order to a higher standard of behaviour.

Equally of course the crowning and the disappearance of the two has a social meaning - it is a blow to the patriarchal order where the father decides who his children will marry and the father restricts the sexual or romantic activities of his children. In this light the actions of Lyanna and Rhaegar are profoundly rebellious.

Most mysterious of all is the absence of comment from Rhaegar upon his return. What ever he did and why he did it doesn't seem to have been something that he chose to comment upon. Is this because the likes of Jaime and Barristan were not close enough to Rhaegar? Or will something come out in their POVs or conversation in future books?

[butterbumps!]

I have to say, thank you for this thread, Butterbumps!. The reason why I am rather weary of participating in R+L threads are because people are so quick to assign blame to one party or the other when there is so much pertinent information to the story that's obviously missing.

As for Benjen joining the NW, I'm quoting this from the "World of Ice and Fire" app:

"Lord Rickard Stark's youngest son is present with his siblings at the great tourney at Harrenhal when a brother of the Night's Watch appears to beg the gathered chivalry to take the black. It is a plea Benjen takes to heart. He remains at Winterfell throughout Robert's Rebellion, but once Eddard is back ruling Winterfell, with his sons Robb and Jon ensuring the continuation of the Stark lineage, Benjen joins the Watch."

It seems as if he was genuinely interested in the NW, but I can also see how it would also serve as a means to remove himself from the past (aka Lyanna and RR).

I agree that this is set up such that Benjen's taking the black doesn't have to be a huge mystery; there's nothing strange about a Northman's choosing this, and the presence of a brother recruiting at Harrenhal establishes something that could stand as a direct inspiration for that choice.

But the way you point out that it could go either way is what I think is really important about this. I think Martin crafted this as a mystery really well-- he establishes just enough reason to accept one version of events (Lyanna is wild, Rhaegar is obsessed with prophesy, Brandon is a hothead, Aerys is mad, Benjen has independent reason to take the black). But he then seems to make a point of establishing other accounts that offer additional dimension to these characters' actions that invite reason to doubt whether that explanation is truly sufficient (Lyanna's KotLT story and her feelings about her arranged marriage, Rhaegar's nearly universal respect and accounts of his accepting responsibility, Brandon behaving not as a hothead and "knowing what to do," rumors of Varys whispering to Aerys, Benjen's words to Jon about joining the Watch at such a young age and his closeness to Lyanna).

I can see where you are coming from.

Either way, whether Elia agreed to it or not Rhaegar would have gone ahead with it so this is not a very important in the context of this discussion.

After the heat of some of the previous R+L threads, I want to thank you for the way you're responding here-- I'm in agreement with a lot of your points.

On the Elia question, I do agree with those who say we can't know that she approved-- that is, I don't think this can be established as one of our few knowns. (On the flipside, I don't think we can accept that she wouldn't have approved of this as a known either-- for all we know Rhaegar might have actually had a succession plan that he proposed or something).

Either way, you're right-- it's not a critical question in this context.

I wonder what the "official" version of Rhaegar's and Lyanna's story is - do Westerosi believe Lyanna was abducted or eloped? I'm leaning towards the former, with only a select few (Ned, Howland & co) knowing the truth.

Actions and characters of Rhaegar, Lyanna and Brandon also provide lots of food for thought. What's the nature of Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna - prophecy or love? Did Lyanna really elope without contacting her family? Did Rhaegar? Was Brandon's hotheadedness really a reason enough for doing something so horribly stupid? are all questions worthy of plenty of speculation. And speculate is all we can do, since there's no proof either way.

If we accept the premise that R's, L's and B's actions are too much out of character and some conspiracy took place, then the logical question appear - who would stage such an operation? Why would anyone want to stop communication between R and L and their families, therefore escalating the tension? Who spread out false stories that eventually reached Brandon's ears? Who would have both the means and the motive to execute this plan? Obvious answer, of course, is Varys - but it seems inconsistent with his other actions (warning Aerys about Rhaegar's plot or telling him to to let Tywin in KL). Who else could it be?

I'm also curious whether e.g. Rhaegar really isolated himself with Lyanna for several months while realm went to shit? Did he try to contact his family or the Starks? For all his obsessions about prophecies, he's described as dutiful and intelligent man who would not neglect realm-wide rebellion for months. If he suspected someone was tampering with his mail, couldn't he have send Arthur or Oswell with a message?

I'm not sure what the "official" version is, but it seems like "abduction" is consistent. Robert's version seems to have a predatory cast; other versions, such as Cersei's, Barristan's and the Targs, cast it in a more romantic light where Rhaegar absconded out of love.

But the bolded is what I'm really interested in personally-- what Varys' role in this could have been. My view is that Varys is not "pro-Targ" necessarily, and that he was looking for a weak king to sit the throne for some unrevealed end, at least for a little while.

Aerys was "weak king," while Rhaegar would have been a strong one-- he had much support from many angles (There's an anecdote about how twice as many cheers for Tywin than Aerys, and twice as many cheers as that for Rhaegar).

There's been threads about the Southron ambitions of Rickard, and indeed, there was a major power bloc forming between Baratheon-Stark-Arryn-Tully. Whether those involved intended this bloc to present a challenge to the throne or not, the mere existence of such a thing is a challenge, and one Varys would have surely noticed. While I don't think Varys is "pro-Targ," I don't think he's "pro-Baratheon-Stark-Arryn-Tully-bloc" either-- unchecked, this bloc could disrupt the system.

Varys did tell Aerys to keep the gates closed. But prior to this, he convinced Aerys to go to the Harrenhal tourney to thwart a possible coup by Rhaegar and the other lords. That is, Varys told Aerys that the tourney was a pretext for political action. It's not established whether this is true-- we don't know whether Rhaegar and the other lords were actually planning to remove Aerys from the throne at this event. But the fact that Varys intervened in this way would suggest he's against the idea of Rhaegar's sitting the throne for some reason. Varys' actions, to me, seem as though he wanted Aerys to stay on the throne specifically (for some reason), but in order for this to occur, he'd need to defuse this power bloc, as this bloc would be that much more of a threat to a weak king.

Taking a step back from this, a lot of what occurred could look a bit orchestrated. If someone wanted to keep Aerys on the throne, a good way to do this would be for the power bloc to turn against itself and Rhaegar to neutralize them. The events up to the sack are pretty consistent with that end.

Alternatively, Varys might not have been against Rhaegar's taking throne from Aerys-- that is, maybe a weak king wasn't his goal. Varys claims to work "for the realm," and undoubtedly, if that's true, he'd have wanted Rhaegar to sit the throne at the end of this. What if he thwarted any chance of a council at Harrenhal simply because he wanted a more permanent solution to the great power bloc, and anticipated that even if Rhaegar could form consensus amongst the lords then, that the residual bloc would always provide a challenge?

Looked at this way, I can see these events up to the Trident as orchestrated toward neutralizing the power bloc against Aerys, keeping Rhaegar out of the picture for a while, and when both sides are weakened, having Rhaegar swoop in to set the realm back in order (this would be pretty much Varys' plan for Aegon).

There really shouldn't be that much to say in the OP if were going off what we actually know of the situation.

We know what Rhaegars motivations were (there must be three)

We know Eddard had the best understanding out of anybody about what really happened considering he talked to Lyanna before she died, and he certaintly didn't have the sort of animosity for Rhaegar that he would have if he'd actually kidnapped and raped her as was reported.

Is this a criticism of the thread?

I'm not certain that we can say for a fact Rhaegar's initial motivation in this was the prophesy.

I agree on this definitely. What sort of set me off in the other thread, was the Brandon and Robert bashing. These guys are great, and they get way too much hate.

I think some of that "bashing" was in response to comments like the one you agreed with in this post. As in, if we're going to take everything at face value (Lyanna is "dishonorable" and Rhaegar's an idiot, with no other explanation), then the face value of Brandon's actions are also pretty ludicrous. I think we should keep an open mind about all the actors involved.

[SeanF]

Alternatively, Varys might not have been against Rhaegar's taking throne from Aerys-- that is, maybe a weak king wasn't his goal. Varys claims to work "for the realm," and undoubtedly, if that's true, he'd have wanted Rhaegar to sit the throne at the end of this. What if he thwarted any chance of a council at Harrenhal simply because he wanted a more permanent solution to the great power bloc, and anticipated that even if Rhaegar could form consensus amongst the lords then, that the residual bloc would always provide a challenge?

Looked at this way, I can see these events up to the Trident as orchestrated toward neutralizing the power bloc against Aerys, keeping Rhaegar out of the picture for a while, and when both sides are weakened, having Rhaegar swoop in to set the realm back in order (this would be pretty much Varys' plan for Aegon).

I like that idea. If correct, Varys must have reasoned that a warrior as distinguished as Rhaegar would have no difficulty winning at the Trident, given that he had the larger army.

Of course, that plan (if it was the plan) backfired disastrously.

That gets me thinking further. Why was Rhaegar put in command? He had a fine record as a tournament fighter, but had not, as far as I know, ever commanded an army. Lord Tarly, and Ser Barristan (and presumably others) had commanded armies successfully in the past. Being a knight and being a commander, are different skillsets. Placing a novice in command was a hideous gamble.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

That gets me thinking further. Why was Rhaegar put in command? He had a fine record as a tournament fighter, but had not, as far as I know, ever commanded an army. Lord Tarly, and Ser Barristan (and presumably others) had commanded armies successfully in the past. Being a knight and being a commander, are different skillsets. Placing a novice in command was a hideous gamble.

That's what the highborn kids get just for being born. Did Jaime have any command experience, when Tywin gave him an army? I know for certain that Robb had none, when he personally assumed command of his forces. Neither Loras, nevertheless he was assigned to lead the van at the battle that never happened, and later got an independent command of the royal forces besieging Dragonstone. Back to the Robert's Rebellion - Robert Baratheon himself, I think, didn't have any real experience as commander, neither did Ned. So, really, the two opposing armies were led by n00bs with good names, nothing exceptional about Rhaegar.

[Chebyshov]

That gets me thinking further. Why was Rhaegar put in command? He had a fine record as a tournament fighter, but had not, as far as I know, ever commanded an army. Lord Tarly, and Ser Barristan (and presumably others) had commanded armies successfully in the past. Being a knight and being a commander, are different skillsets. Placing a novice in command was a hideous gamble.

Well Rhaegar was bookish at least, and probably well versed in some military history from that. Bobby leading the army is what confuses me...guy didn't seem fit to do anything but swing a hammer.

[E-Ro]

Quoting on a phone is difficult, so bear with me here. I'm sorry for the format of this post.

Most mysterious of all is the absence of comment from Rhaegar upon his return. What ever he did and why he did it doesn't seem to have been something that he chose to comment upon. Is this because the likes of Jaime and Barristan were not close enough to Rhaegar? Or will something come out in their POVs or conversation in future books?

Solid post. But I think this last part is easily explained by the author not wanting to reveal too much. Chances are Jaime and barristan know a bit more then let on. How awkward would it be for rhaegar to not address the elephant in the room with these people. Like even a simple "yeah, I didn't rape her" would have gone a long way.

I think some of that "bashing" was in response to comments like the one you agreed with in this post. As in, if we're going to take everything at face value (Lyanna is "dishonorable" and Rhaegar's an idiot, with no other explanation), then the face value of Brandon's actions are also pretty ludicrous. I think we should keep an open mind about all the actors involved.

Sorry about that. I will make every attempt to improve my conduct and behave from here on out.

I like that idea. If correct, Varys must have reasoned that a warrior as distinguished as Rhaegar would have no difficulty winning at the Trident, given that he had the larger army.

Of course, that plan (if it was the plan) backfired disastrously.

That gets me thinking further. Why was Rhaegar put in command? He had a fine record as a tournament fighter, but had not, as far as I know, ever commanded an army. Lord Tarly, and Ser Barristan (and presumably others) had commanded armies successfully in the past. Being a knight and being a commander, are different skillsets. Placing a novice in command was a hideous gamble.

I think he was put in charge simple by virtue of being prince. He had never fought in a battle before the trident, or killed anyone. While he was in the toj fooling around with lyanna Robert was storming the walls of gulltown and killing Marc grafton. Rhaegar was not qualified to lead that army compared to Robert. Especially with men like barristan around.

[Wmarshal]

That's what the highborn kids get just for being born. Did Jaime have any command experience, when Tywin gave him an army? I know for certain that Robb had none, when he personally assumed command of his forces. Neither Loras, nevertheless he was assigned to lead the van at the battle that never happened, and later got an independent command of the royal forces besieging Dragonstone. Back to the Robert's Rebellion - Robert Baratheon himself, I think, didn't have any real experience as commander, neither did Ned. So, really, the two opposing armies were led by n00bs with good names, nothing exceptional about Rhaegar.

This is not true, Robert fought in every battle in that war, save the raids Hoster did.

[E-Ro]

That's what the highborn kids get just for being born. Did Jaime have any command experience, when Tywin gave him an army? I know for certain that Robb had none, when he personally assumed command of his forces. Neither Loras, nevertheless he was assigned to lead the van at the battle that never happened, and later got an independent command of the royal forces besieging Dragonstone. Back to the Robert's Rebellion - Robert Baratheon himself, I think, didn't have any real experience as commander, neither did Ned. So, really, the two opposing armies were led by n00bs with good names, nothing exceptional about Rhaegar.

Umm, no. Robert led the storming of gulltown, completely fucked three armies in one day(the logistics and timing of this, it's one of the most impressive feats in the series) and he had command when he fought randyle tarly. Last one was a loss admittedly but he managed to escape with no consequences at all. An indecisive loss.

[Wmarshal]

Quoting on a phone is difficult, so bear with me here. I'm sorry for the format of this post.

Solid post. But I think this last part is easily explained by the author not wanting to reveal too much. Chances are Jaime and barristan know a bit more then let on. How awkward would it be for rhaegar to not address the elephant in the room with these people. Like even a simple "yeah, I didn't rape her" would have gone a long way.

Sorry about that. I will make every attempt to improve my conduct and behave from here on out.

I think he was put in charge simple by virtue of being prince. He had never fought in a battle before the trident, or killed anyone. While he was in the toj fooling around with lyanna Robert was storming the walls of gulltown and killing Marc grafton. Rhaegar was not qualified to lead that army. Especially with men like barristan around.

I find his lack of experience his own making, he could easily taken command of the loyalties forces during the minor conflicts, like the KWB or DD.

[roxWolfox]

If anything, there is not enough hate on Rhaegar the dumb Targaryen and Lyanna the dishonorable Stark. Because of 78 threads of R+L=J equation threads.....

The whole point of this thread is rational discussion about the events leading up to Robert's Rebellion. There are enough hate threads on this site, and those of us who have no emotional investment in fictional characters, but who just want to piece together the puzzle, are grateful for having the opportunity to share our thoughts in a war-free/hate-free zone. :)

We also know he shamed his wife for Lyanna.

And that he fromed a pretty silly plan which left his wife and kids in Aerys mad hands.

And changed his mind on who was the PTWP showing he had no hard core evidence or reason to do what he did.

Also that he did not aid in the war he started till the very end.

As to Ned, he has no animosity to Aerys either, not showing good character.

We know that he passed by his wife to present Lyanna the QoLaB crown of flowers. Shame? Or Snub? Or political statement?

What plan did he form which left his wife and kids in Aerys mad hands? Aerys had demanded the KotLT to be found ... if the mystery knight was Lyanna, and if someone else who had little to lose and much to gain by causing discord found out (or had proof), and threatened to make that proof public knowledge, it's not much of a stretch to think Rhaegar was on a rescue mission when he abducted Lyanna. Perhaps Rickard knew his daughter was in danger from the mad king but didn't relate the info to Brandon. See what I did there? I read between the lines, and that is just one of the interpretations of all the second-hand and hearsay stories I came up with. :D

Prophecies are fickle things, from what we've read. Maggy the Frog's prophecy has yet to completely unfold, but much of it seems to be in the works. Cersei negated the validity of the prophecy, and look where it got her. Rhaegar took the PtwP prophecy seriously, to his immediate family's detriment. What do we learn from either action/reaction? Prophecies suck! :P

He started the war? Are you 100% positive in that? Is it written in the text somewhere? His father called for him to return to King's Landing ... that's all we know for a certainty.

Ned lost his family when he was 19? 20? I don't know what age you are, but I'm in my 50s. I had a lot of rage/bitterness concerning events in my life when in my youth, but the remarkable thing about the passage of time is the healing effect (if one chooses to live life in the moment rather than continuously live in the past). Ned chose to live in the moment (and represses memories of the past). Robert B. lived in the past to the point that he couldn't function in the present, until someone mentioned a Targaryen in his presence. Then and only then he lived completely in the present, raging and fighting mad. If you reread Ned's PoVs carefully, mark down how many times the words bitter or bitterness comes up when he recalls past events. He is of the north, and as Manderly states, The North Remembers.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

This is not true, Robert fought in every battle in that war, save the raids Hoster did.

Sure, he was a veteran at the Trident, but at the start of the war he was a complete greenhorn... and a general already.

That's how it works:

“I will be sixteen soon enough,” Robb said.

“And you are fifteen now. Fifteen, and leading a host to battle. Can you understand why I might fear, Robb?”

His look grew stubborn. “There was no one else.”

“No one?” she said. “Pray, who were those men I saw here a moment ago? Roose Bolton, Rickard Karstark, Galbart and Robett Glover, the Greatjon, Helman Tallhart … you might have given the command to any of them. Gods be good, you might even have sent Theon, though he would not be my choice.”

“They are not Starks,” he said.

Apparently, last name trumps all other concerns.

[E-Ro]

Sure, he was a veteran at the Trident, but at the start of the war he was a complete greenhorn... and a general already.

That's how it works:

I will be sixteen soon enough, Robb said.

And you are fifteen now. Fifteen, and leading a host to battle. Can you understand why I might fear, Robb?

His look grew stubborn. There was no one else.

No one? she said. Pray, who were those men I saw here a moment ago? Roose Bolton, Rickard Karstark, Galbart and Robett Glover, the Greatjon, Helman Tallhart you might have given the command to any of them. Gods be good, you might even have sent Theon, though he would not be my choice.

They are not Starks, he said.

Apparently, last name trumps all other concerns.

Napoleon, caesar, Genghis khan, sun tzu, Edward of Woodstock, all were rookies at one point. For the most part in westeros lords are the best educated and well taught giving them a strong advantage even without prior command. The problem is, when you have a really effective staff to help out you should probably take a backseat and just observe the first time rather then taking a hands on approach. So yeah, name is important but the reason for that is because name = training. To be fair to rhaegar though we don't know to what extent he micromanaged things. For all we know barristan DID have overall command and rhaegar was simply oking his commands.

[Wmarshal]

We know that he passed by his wife to present Lyanna the QoLaB crown of flowers. Shame? Or Snub? Or political statement?

What plan did he form which left his wife and kids in Aerys mad hands? Aerys had demanded the KotLT to be found ... if the mystery knight was Lyanna, and if someone else who had little to lose and much to gain by causing discord found out (or had proof), and threatened to make that proof public knowledge, it's not much of a stretch to think Rhaegar was on a rescue mission when he abducted Lyanna. Perhaps Rickard knew his daughter was in danger from the mad king but didn't relate the info to Brandon. See what I did there? I read between the lines, and that is just one of the interpretations of all the second-hand and hearsay stories I came up with. :D

Prophecies are fickle things, from what we've read. Maggy the Frog's prophecy has yet to completely unfold, but much of it seems to be in the works. Cersei negated the validity of the prophecy, and look where it got her. Rhaegar took the PtwP prophecy seriously, to his immediate family's detriment. What do we learn from either action/reaction? Prophecies suck! :P

He started the war? Are you 100% positive in that? Is it written in the text somewhere? His father called for him to return to King's Landing ... that's all we know for a certainty.

Ned lost his family when he was 19? 20? I don't know what age you are, but I'm in my 50s. I had a lot of rage/bitterness concerning events in my life when in my youth, but the remarkable thing about the passage of time is the healing effect (if one chooses to live life in the moment rather than continuously live in the past). Ned chose to live in the moment (and represses memories of the past). Robert B. lived in the past to the point that he couldn't function in the present, until someone mentioned a Targaryen in his presence. Then and only then he lived completely in the present, raging and fighting mad. If you reread Ned's PoVs carefully, mark down how many times the words bitter or bitterness comes up when he recalls past events. He is of the north, and as Manderly states, The North Remembers.

Shame, he told the world Lyanna was hotter then his wife. Why do think the dragonknight beat snot out The Unworthy's champions during tourneys? Because crowning one of the unworthy's lovers would have shamed the Unworthy's wife and Aemon's sister. That is a stretch, the kidnapping happened a whole six months after the tourney and no evidence Lyanna was the knight. He had no idea if he was right or not, if prophecies are true it would come true on it's own. Yeah we do. Rhaegar takes Lyanna, Brandon search for them to axe murder him, Aerys capture him and dad, they die. War starts. And who started the whole thing? Rhaegar. Ned doesn't hold grudges ,him holding no grudge to Rhaegar should not be used to show good character for Rhaegar, that is my point, and my point the whole time.

[The Wolves]

Rhaegar took a girl rather you are lowborn or highborn or a King or heir to a throne that is not a big enough crime/act for a civil war to erupt from that mere action.

Aerys, Robert, Ned, Hoster, Jon, are more responsible for Robert's Rebellion. Rhaegar was away from it all with probably a handful of men and the ones that I mentioned had thousands of men at their command they should have acted more responsible.

Lyanna and Rhaegar still acted irresponsibly and should have gotten consequences but their consequences did not fit their crime if anyone can all it that.

[The Sleeper]

@ Butterbumps

It is my understanidng that Brandon challenged Rhaegar to a duell and that the "come out and die" part was the colorfull summary by Jaime, conveying perhaps the tone in which the challenge was issued. The fact that he had heirs with him (the heir to the Vale no less), suggests that this was much more formal than the supposed mad one-man invasion it is made out to be.

Also, where does the assumption of Benjen's involvement stem from?

I'm afraid we know much less. We know that Lyanna disappeared from somewhere in the Riverlands, she turned up a year later in the custody of three Kingsguard knights in the ToJ, that she was believed to be abducted by Rhaegar and that Rhaegar himself was absent during most of the rebellion and the events preceding it.

[Lee-Sensei]

Rhaegar took a girl rather you are lowborn or highborn or a King or heir to a throne that is not a big enough crime/act for a civil war to erupt from that mere action.

Aerys, Robert, Ned, Hoster, Jon, are more responsible for Robert's Rebellion. Rhaegar was away from it all with probably a handful of men and the ones that I mentioned had thousands of men at their command they should have acted more responsible.

Lyanna and Rhaegar still acted irresponsibly and should have gotten consequences but their consequences did not fit their crime if anyone can all it that.

Rhaegar and Lyanna set everything in motion. They're more responsible than anyone with the possible exception of Aerys.