Many Asses on the Throne

[Leonardo]

The suggestion that Stannis is the one that will lead the war for the Dawn implies that.

He is not part of any real prophecy. Just of a misinterpreted prophecy by a confused priestess. He is a false king and a false Azor Ahai. A false hero.

Jon and Dany. They are the ones who have to take the leading roles. There is no place for a leading role for Stannis in that equation.

Neither are even close to as capable of ruling the seven kingdoms as Stannis is, is why.

It's not about prophecies and bullcrap about destiny, it's about who is best for the realm, and right now Dany and Jon have made some critical mistakes and overstepped their stations.

[Needs More Salt]

Given the poo-fest that both Queens have found themselves in, I can see the High Septon using his newfound army and position of power to crown himself or in some way take control. Other than having a reputation for piety we don't know much about the man, so this assumption has little ground to stand on. Still, he doesn't seem to flinch nor shy away from threats and has already put some swords to use.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Neither are even close to as capable of ruling the seven kingdoms as Stannis is, is why.

It's not about prophecies and bullcrap about destiny, it's about who is best for the realm, and right now Dany and Jon have made some critical mistakes and overstepped their stations.

Have you not been paying attention? The prophecies in this story tend to come true, so yes they are a factor. However, there doesn't seem to be a prophecy about whose butt will sit on the most uncomfortable chair in the seven kingdoms. No problem with Stannis getting it.

Of course Jon and Dany have made more mistakes recently than Stannis has. He's twice their age! They need to get the learning part out of the way before either would be able to rule Westeros (assuming either one survives and even wants the throne by the time it's done).

[Leonardo]

Have you not been paying attention? The prophecies in this story tend to come true, so yes they are a factor. However, there doesn't seem to be a prophecy about whose butt will sit on the most uncomfortable chair in the seven kingdoms. No problem with Stannis getting it.

Of course Jon and Dany have made more mistakes recently than Stannis has. He's twice their age! They need to get the learning part out of the way before either would be able to rule Westeros (assuming either one survives and even wants the throne by the time it's done).

Which prophecies, because most of them have not come close to coming true.

The only ones that have were the Starks which as we know now was weirnet, and the dragon dreams that very few Targs had that turned out to be true, and most of them are in the D and E's

For the most part, no most of the things that have been said have not come to pass, and based on Dany's latest chapter it looks like something is happening with her ladyparts and may not be as barren as was thought, so boom one 'prophecy' cast aside right there. The Ghost of High heart is one of the few whose words have truly come to pass, and not all of them have yet.

This isn't a kiddie movie where we watch the kids fumble and learn to rule though, this is life and death, now, and though Jon is actually doing his best to save the realm and trying, Dany is really just doing the equivalent of an Essosi Age of Empires game. She should have been in Westeros as soon as the dragons were bigger than a car and able to fly around and create a scene. Quentyn was a huge deal, even if she wasn't going to marry him, which I don't really have a problem with as she's quite young still and can do what she wants for all I care since she thought she was barren anyways and her dynasty was still going to die with her until she started working on that problem.

Then there was Xaro's offer when the dragons were already REAL big, which was exactly what she would have done, instead of following the words of a woman in a wooden mask. WHY would you ever trust the words of a stranger implicitly just because SOME of them happen to be right?

[Skoboe]

Did you miss all the chapters of Joffrey holding court? :cool4:

I would HATE it if Myrcella sits the Iron Throne. It's like, did the Lannisters unlock some kind of Infinite Lives option? Every time one of their own drops dead another comes?

And Myrcella already was (at least symbolically) crowned in Dorne. Talk about repetitive!

And this last point brings me to a question: Arianne had a crown made for Myrcella, right? If it was gold, as Maggy said, then does it still count for the prophecy even if Myrcella didn't get to wear it?

In any case, I could only see Myrcella in the IT if Aegon marries her to unite the two bloodlines, but even that's very unlikely, I think

So I think: Tommen - maybe a short time of the Faith holding the IT - then Aegon - then Dany - then the final winner (Shireen?)

I think you missed the sarcasm :eek:

A donkey is an ass....whereas Joffery was an arse.

[Veltigar]

1) Tommen & Margaery

2) After Tommen's death and the breaking of the Lannister-Tyrell alliance Cersei crowns Myrcella on the IT before she takes a hike to CR

3) Faegon & Arianne

4) Daenerys (if the IT survives that long as a physical item)

5) Jon and Daenerys

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Which prophecies, because most of them have not come close to coming true.

The only ones that have were the Starks which as we know now was weirnet, and the dragon dreams that very few Targs had that turned out to be true, and most of them are in the D and E's

For the most part, no most of the things that have been said have not come to pass, and based on Dany's latest chapter it looks like something is happening with her ladyparts and may not be as barren as was thought, so boom one 'prophecy' cast aside right there. The Ghost of High heart is one of the few whose words have truly come to pass, and not all of them have yet.

This isn't a kiddie movie where we watch the kids fumble and learn to rule though, this is life and death, now, and though Jon is actually doing his best to save the realm and trying, Dany is really just doing the equivalent of an Essosi Age of Empires game. She should have been in Westeros as soon as the dragons were bigger than a car and able to fly around and create a scene. Quentyn was a huge deal, even if she wasn't going to marry him, which I don't really have a problem with as she's quite young still and can do what she wants for all I care since she thought she was barren anyways and her dynasty was still going to die with her until she started working on that problem.

Then there was Xaro's offer when the dragons were already REAL big, which was exactly what she would have done, instead of following the words of a woman in a wooden mask. WHY would you ever trust the words of a stranger implicitly just because SOME of them happen to be right?

How about all the ones in the House of the Undying? Maggy the Frog? You mentioned GoHH so I don't have to get into that. The whole thing about the Others coming back is happening. Dragons returning. Everything Daenys the Dreamer foretold. It kind of adds up. No not everything has come to pass yet, if it had the series would be over.

Mirri Maz Duur's prophecy actually is coming true. She wasn't saying never. She was indicating things that seemed to be impossible but have now happened. See this website's prophecy section for an analysis of how almost everything MMD said would have to happen has actually happened. The only difference is that Drogo as Drogo will not be coming back, but this isn't the first time the recipient of a prophecy got one of the details wrong.

This is fiction, and without character growth fiction doesn't get anywhere (unless it's entirely plot driven, in which case we should be getting way more explosions and a lot less of the characters' thoughts). Dany should be in Westeros when the author says she should be in Westeros, not before. The story is going exactly as it's supposed to. It would be very different if Dany had gone to Westeros to make all of her mistakes. Neither she nor Jon were raised to be rulers, as opposed to Stannis and others. Very few people even in fiction are born knowing how to rule. It's something you learn as you grow.

Oh please! You would have trusted Xaro? Quaithe has been right on the money about everything she said. Even the cryptic messages about who/what was coming to Dany is Essos was right at the time she said it. And it's still possible that the Griffin and the Mummer's Dragon will go to Dany for help, be that while she's in Essos or when she gets to Westeros.

[Lady Woodland]

Neither are even close to as capable of ruling the seven kingdoms as Stannis is, is why.

It's not about prophecies and bullcrap about destiny, it's about who is best for the realm, and right now Dany and Jon have made some critical mistakes and overstepped their stations.

The way I see it - IF we can hope for a reasonably happy ending & that the 7 Kingdoms can be united/peaceful & saved, the IT itself is an ugly, brutal symbol & may not really matter in the end I hope it gets melted down into something useful. - The end game ruler will not be there for reasons of Birth right or claims of descent, it will be a true leader with believable, just qualities.

While I can see why you think Stannis may be more suited due to his age, leadership ability etc. his claim comes from being the older brother of the Robert (who was a usurper) IMHO Stannis feels entitled especially after being stuck at Dragonstone for years on Robert's behalf, so he is (maybe rightly so) bitter, angry, moody & vengeful.

Toward the end of aDwD, Stannis is only just getting around to coming to Jon's aid, presumably committing to the Night's Watch & understanding the true threat to the North while Jon is doing all the right things already. Stannis is IMHO only just undertaking (hopefully) the transition that Dany, Jon & other characters have already/will undergo, he needs to abandon his more entitled reasons for wanting to sit the IT, & really want's what's best for the realm. I'm not 100% convinced his motives are not still from self interest.

I can also see how it may appear to the others characters in the books that are interacting with Jon & Dany that they are making mistakes, but their POV characters are very strong, & readers should be able to see the difference.

Dany "If I look back I am lost" - her character 'knows' her decisions & actions are being critiqued & may be unpopular but she does them anyway because she believes it's the right thing to do - she has made mistakes but she has learned from them.

Jon "Kill the boy & let the man be born" - Words said to him by Maester Aemon, he remembers with every tough decision he makes.

Both these characters are very young but I don't feel as if either is acting from their own ambitions or desires, (at least not currently) their actions are for the common good even though they might go against strongly held beliefs by those around them they are standing true to their own convictions & choosing the right.

A common thread with the characters is what happens to real people -

Flawed childhoods, lack of real love during formative years = Flawed persona.

It is only through experiences of love, grief & loss that we overcome our flaws learn from them & hopefully become better people

[Hippocras]

The way I see it - IF we can hope for a reasonably happy ending & that the 7 Kingdoms can be united/peaceful & saved, the IT itself is an ugly, brutal symbol & may not really matter in the end I hope it gets melted down into something useful. - The end game ruler will not be there for reasons of Birth right or claims of descent, it will be a true leader with believable, just qualities.

While I can see why you think Stannis may be more suited due to his age, leadership ability etc. his claim comes from being the older brother of the Robert (who was a usurper) IMHO Stannis feels entitled especially after being stuck at Dragonstone for years on Robert's behalf, so he is (maybe rightly so) bitter, angry, moody & vengeful.

Toward the end of aDwD, Stannis is only just getting around to coming to Jon's aid, presumably committing to the Night's Watch & understanding the true threat to the North while Jon is doing all the right things already. Stannis is IMHO only just undertaking (hopefully) the transition that Dany, Jon & other characters have already/will undergo, he needs to abandon his more entitled reasons for wanting to sit the IT, & really want's what's best for the realm. I'm not 100% convinced his motives are not still from self interest.

I can also see how it may appear to the others characters in the books that are interacting with Jon & Dany that they are making mistakes, but their POV characters are very strong, & readers should be able to see the difference.

Dany "If I look back I am lost" - her character 'knows' her decisions & actions are being critiqued & may be unpopular but she does them anyway because she believes it's the right thing to do - she has made mistakes but she has learned from them.

Jon "Kill the boy & let the man be born" - Words said to him by Maester Aemon, he remembers with every tough decision he makes.

Both these characters are very young but I don't feel as if either is acting from their own ambitions or desires, (at least not currently) their actions are for the common good even though they might go against strongly held beliefs by those around them they are standing true to their own convictions & choosing the right.

A common thread with the characters is what happens to real people -

Flawed childhoods, lack of real love during formative years = Flawed persona.

It is only through experiences of love, grief & loss that we overcome our flaws learn from them & hopefully become better people

Nice post

[fuem]

Love the title

[Stormland's Fury]

Toward the end of aDwD, Stannis is only just getting around to coming to Jon's aid, presumably committing to the Night's Watch & understanding the true threat to the North while Jon is doing all the right things already. Stannis is IMHO only just undertaking (hopefully) the transition that Dany, Jon & other characters have already/will undergo, he needs to abandon his more entitled reasons for wanting to sit the IT, & really want's what's best for the realm. I'm not 100% convinced his motives are not still from self interest.

I agree with most of your post except the bolded one, he does come from time to time with things like this:

I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her? We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must ... we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty.

”

- Stannis to Davos

The more we bleed each other, the weaker we shall all be when the real enemy falls upon us.

”

- Stannis to Jon Snow

“

It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert's heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son. I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done after the Trident.

”

- Stannis to Davos

And he says stuff like that to people in private, not anywhere in public where he would get any recognition for it. I personally am convinced that he's at least sincere.

[King Benjen II]

Ser Patrick sits the throne in the end. It is known.

[unSonofStannis]

Ser Patrick sits the throne in the end. It is known.

Mallister?

[Lady Woodland]

I agree with most of your post except the bolded one, he does come from time to time with things like this:

I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her? We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must ... we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty. ”

- Stannis to Davos

The more we bleed each other, the weaker we shall all be when the real enemy falls upon us. ”

- Stannis to Jon Snow

“ It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert's heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son. I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done after the Trident. ”

- Stannis to Davos

And he says stuff like that to people in private, not anywhere in public where he would get any recognition for it. I personally am convinced that he's at least sincere.

You make a valid point here, you're spot on, Stannis is quoting what he knows of the Law and ruling, in his eyes his claim to the IT is totally legitimate by everything he's ever been told, however I feel that even here he's sounds a little ambiguous don't you think? "It's not a question of wanting. The Throne is mine as Robert's heir".

It seems he honestly doesn't think there is another alternative. He is the trueborn NOK to the former King, ruling out Robert's bastards & Cersei & Jamie's offspring.

He fostered one of Robert's bastards Edric Storm, so I don't think he's evil, for me he is still on his learning curve, Mel plays him, his Hand/retainers tell him what he wants to hear. Only Davos has enough true faith in Stannis's character to counsel him freely & honestly & underneath it all he knows it to be wise counsel. Also the show (which I saw before reading the books cast's him in a darker way)

Like I said not sure about Stannis yet, don't get me wrong I don't dislike his character & he is growing on me as his Arc develops. In a way I find him a bit like Ned, & these quotes you've just presented back it up for me, It's more about duty, honour & the way they look at ruling a kingdom as a Birth right, rather than say a democracy as we know it.

Can't wait to see the outcome (hopefully in tWoW) I don't want him to die he's got a really interesting story. Hippocras had the right of it with his OP order sadly for poor Tommen & Myrcella.

[unSonofStannis]

Does anyone think a Martell might end up on the throne like Arriane or Trystane?

[Stormland's Fury]

Like I said not sure about Stannis yet, don't get me wrong I don't dislike his character & he is growing on me as his Arc develops. In a way I find him a bit like Ned, & these quotes you've just presented back it up for me, It's more about duty, honour & the way they look at ruling a kingdom as a Birth right, rather than say a democracy as we know it.

I have also to add that he has no reason to bullshit Davos and that he firmly believes that Ned's murderers have to be brought to justice. That choice of words and the fact that he admittedly didn't like Ned on a personal level says a lot about his intentions.

But yes, that's my interpretation, I still can see why people don't agree with him.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Maggy the Frog's prophecy to Cersei about seeing all her kids crowned before they die does not mean that they will all sit on the Iron Throne.

There is already talk by the Dornish of crowning Myrcella to justify their war against the Lannisters.

So she could die as soon as they have crowned her, without ever setting foot close to the Iron Throne.

I absolutely disagree that there will be time for Myrcella to sit the Iron Throne, what with Aegon, Dany and Jon's storylines all still converging on the Throne in the remaining two books.

That's the same reason why there is not time for Stannis to sit his bony arse on the Throne either.

My view of a likely sequence of Kings:

Tommen and Myrcella (crowned at the same time by different factions in the Seven Kingdoms)

Aegon kills them and becomes King

Dany kills Aegon and becomes Queen

Jon takes over as Dany's true heir

Then:

Iron Throne is abolished and the Kingdoms go their separate ways again.

[Hippocras]

I disagree. The key is to work with theories of future events that make the prophesies possible, and to discard theories that take too much time! :D

Tyrion knows Myrcella is Dorne's hostage. He also advised Aegon to ask Dorne for help. When he suggested that Aegon "fell for it" or something like that, there was a hint that a slight bit of trickery was involved regarding his advice to Aegon. Not the malicious kind, but the kind that is personally advantageous to Tyrion.

If you keep in mind that Tyrion very much likes Cersei's younger children and they like him, it seems very likely that Tyrion would have pieced together the logic that Dorne already HAS one heir to the throne in their power (sympathetic to Tyrion) and betrothed to a Dornish prince, guaranteeing their influence in the current line of succession. So Aegon will have to do some work to convince them to back him over Myrcella.

I think it is extremely likely, therefore, that the Dornish revenge mission combined with their control over Myrcella, heir to the throne, means that Dorne will side with Aegon AND Myrcella, combining their claims into one by marriage, seeing that approach as in their best interests (they might not learn about Quentyn's death until after these arrangements have been made).

Tyrion would have understood this, and that it would be something that would be in his own personal interest. Meanwhile, given Dorne's inevitable doubts about Aegon's legitimacy and their interest in Myrcella, betrothing Myrcella to Aegon to seal a Dornish alliance is a better move for them than Arianne.

The Dance of Dragons was a war of succession above all else. Everyone assumes that the Dance of Dragons in these books will involve Dany and her dragons - but it might not. It might, rather, be a war of succession between Tommen/Tyrells, and Myrcella/Aegon and Martells. Both the Baratheons and the Martells claim Targaryen (dragon) ancestry. Aegon appears to give Dorne and Myrcella the upper hand in terms of legitimacy related to the "dragon" chain of succession.

For this version of events there is enough time.

[Lointain]

Aegon dies of greyscale, infected by Jon Connington.

Stannis dies in a battle against the Others, when they overrun the Wall and start entering in the North.

Jon soul warged in Ghost progressively overtaken by the beast instinct, and forgets his previous humanity.

Daenerys defeats the Others with her dragons, but is mortally wounded in the process, becoming a legend and an heroine, sang forever.

Tommen keeps the Iron Throne, and he would help reconstructing the Seven Kingdoms, starting the slow process of mending all the terrible things that had befallen upon the Realm, being know has a good and just king, that really cares with the Realm.

[Mithras]

Oldtown will be the powerbase of fAegon. In TPatQ, after Rhaenyra took the capitol from Aegon II, the combined Hightower force coming from Oldtown could not succeed in reaching and taking the KL from her. What drove Rhaenyra out of the capitol was a large-scale riot.

Dany is the parallel of Rhaenyra but Cersei also shares some parallels with her and she has been holding the city for a long time. The hints suggest that Cersei will activate the wildfire plot of Aerys, so they must stay in the KL to the end. This makes sense because it looks like neither Dany nor fAegon will have the opportunity to take the KL as they will be engaged in battles. Also the crazy rule of Cersei along with the winter and food crisis will likely cause serious uprising in the city.

So, after Tommen dies, Myrcella will be the Queen. No more people will be crowned and seated on the IT after Myrcella. I think we should also count the Hands to sit on the IT. Mace as the Hand probably sat on the IT before the Epilogue of ADwD and Cersei will probably keep him there for a while. After Mace dies, Cersei might make another fool the Hand. I think Qyburn can also be the Hand at some point. The final Hand will be Jaime when he returns to KL. And after him, the KL will burn.