Inv1ctus Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Because Jaime deep down is still the same despicable person that threw Bran from a tower. That was different, he did it for his own survival and Cersei's. It was despicable for sure, but understandable. Rape isn't understandable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tall Tyrion Lannister! Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 This is really a hard topic to discuss (esp. for us non-native speakers), b/c rape is a horrible thing and I really hate rape-apologists in real life. Having said that, I didn't mind the scene, and I don't think it ruined Jaime. I didn't read whole thread, only couple of first posts and it seemed that there's almost a consensus that it was a rape, and it ruined Jaime's redemption arc. I don't want to comment on rape much - it was a rape, but give super special circumstances of relationship between those two I just can't even compare its impact on Cercei to impact of any victim of real rape (and not because how she is). I wasn't disgusted looking at that scene, and thats a pretty good test for me, since I consider myself pretty sensible about these things. But my main point is that I really don't think it hurts Jaime as a character. I never read it in the books like he was pure villain before maiming, and then suddenly he became a good guy. He certainly starts to become a better person, but he is still perfectly capable of doing bad things, and forcing Cercei to have sex with him when he wants to after she refused him couple of times before (to the point that he really "needs" it) fits perfectly with his personality. I was a moment of almost lost passion to him (it's not like he'll become a serial rapist now), something like "goodbye Cercei") and I think he will be disgusted afterwards - which again fits perfectly with his changing character. I agree it would be a better scene if it looked like she agreed at some point, but have no problem with how it went. I disagree, we have 3 examples of jaime saving people from rape, or at least being very upset about it happening, one of them even in the show. So I don't think it's his character to rape anybody. It doesn't make any sense at all to have someone save a person from rape, and then turn around and do it themselves. I understand people can be severe hypocrites, but that's a huge change in your character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilúvatar Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 She kisses him passionately before he tries to have sex with her. She stops and clearly shows she doesn't want it to get any further. He doesn't care, and grabs her and begins kissing her, to which she does not kiss back. Even when they are on the floor and he is pulling their clothes off and still kissing her, she is still struggling and not kissing back. Then he says he doesn't care she doesn't want to do this, and the scene ends. There is no ambiguity here. He raped her. /thread She grabs him by the head and kisses him long after he's made it clear he wants them to have sex, thus giving consent and proving that she's only conflicted about having sex at that time and place, not about having sex with Jaime in general. If she really wanted to stop it, she would have tried a lot harder to do so. And Jaime didn't hit her or use any kind of extreme violence to subdue her, so your argument that she submitted to avoid further harm carries no weight whatsoever. /thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose Seal Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 She grabs him by the head and kisses him long after he's made it clear he wants them to have sex, thus giving consent and proving that she's only conflicted about having sex at that time and place, not about having sex with Jaime in general. If she really wanted to stop it, she would have tried a lot harder to do so. And Jaime didn't hit her or use any kind of extreme violence to subdue her, so your argument that she submitted to avoid further harm carries no weight whatsoever. /thread.'She didn't fight back, it's not rape'Please get out of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inv1ctus Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 1. This thread was started with the title "Why do they treat Jaime that way" and I kind of expected the debate will go into that, why did they choose to do this for his character etc. But it seems majority of comments are regardind if it was rape/not a rape, which is completely ludicrous. Anyone who has some morals can clearly see how the scene was portrayed. 2. Director says this was supposed to look like a consensual sex. So he clearly messed up very badly. I can't even imagine what went through their heads while they were editing this scene. I'm baffled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conchobar Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Yeah like everyone else bar the select few, I had a problem with Jaime's scene as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinjonator Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Also, in reference to the extremely weak arguments about it being okay because Cersei was "conflicted" (a fact which, if true, the scene did not adequately convey)... if Cersei was giving off signals of not being on-board with it, Jaime should have stopped. Period. I mean hell, put yourself in that position. Imagine you are initiating coitus with your partner. If your partner starts saying "no" and "stop", wouldn't your first impulse be to stop, and assess the situation? I'm going to give everyone here the benefit of the doubt, and hope that none of you are rapists (statistically, a very generous BotD on my part, but I'll extend the courtesy all the same). And if you aren't, I assume you would stop; (if you admit that, in that scenario, you, personally, wouldn't stop, and would keep going as Jaime did, then you're probably a rapist, sorry to say). And yet, Jaime didn't stop. He didn't ask what she wanted. He literally responded to her objections with "I don't care". He took what he wanted, and whether she wanted it or not wasn't a consideration for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belladeuil Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 In the books, she was reluctant at first but she consented and participated fully by the end. In the TV Series, it was rape. She kept saying 'it's not right' but he said he didn't care and carried on though for a short moment before that it looked consensual if very rough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarieAntoinette Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 In the book I have interpreted their scene that the resisting is kind of their thing, like a kinky game or something. I never thought it was rape in the book. I don't know why the show left out the "Do me Jaime" part, this would have made the scene much less controversial in my opinion. As for ruining Jaime, he threw Bran out of the window, he ain't exactly a good person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilúvatar Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 'She didn't fight back, it's not rape'Please get out of this thread.As amazing as this may sound, yes, when you kiss someone back instead of fighting to resist, it's not rape... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Why is it that all the other Lannisters are portrayed in a more kindly fashion on the show than they are in the books with the exception of Jaime. Why do this to his character? Is it because the audience was starting to like him? Or is it that the show runners know the ending and they want his redemption ark to be that much bigger. I can't figure this out. Suggestions?it might be more a need to humanize Cersei. And I actually agree given the vehement hatred Cersei gets around here, that fans turn her into a one-dimensional villain way too easily. Jamie has goodwill to spare, Cersei doesn't.But in this scene we clearly see her use the hinted promise of future sex, after weeks of withholding it because of his hand, to try to get him to murder Tyrion. It was frankly disgusting behaviour on her part too, so Jamie's rage mixed with desire was a bit of a bomb waiting to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinjonator Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Cersei not having sex with Jaime was disgusting behavior? How so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Cersei not having sex with Jaime was disgusting behavior? How so?No, using it to manipulate him to murder his brother was disgusting behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilúvatar Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 2. Director says this was supposed to look like a consensual sex. So he clearly messed up very badly. I can't even imagine what went through their heads while they were editing this scene. I'm baffled. I think they got the scene spot on. Consensual yet inappropriate, with conflicted emotions would be the way i'd describe it. Some viewers just clearly don't know what rape is really like, or can't read the situation properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
six Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 1. This thread was started with the title "Why do they treat Jaime that way" and I kind of expected the debate will go into that, why did they choose to do this for his character etc. But it seems majority of comments are regardind if it was rape/not a rape, which is completely ludicrous. Anyone who has some morals can clearly see how the scene was portrayed. 2. Director says this was supposed to look like a consensual sex. So he clearly messed up very badly. I can't even imagine what went through their heads while they were editing this scene. I'm baffled. It does beg the question though, as to what they're getting at with Jaime. Is it because his character development in the books is meant to be a red herring? Book!Jaime is not a good man by any stretch, but he's not a rapist, and he's someone that after going through the ordeal of losing his hand etc, starts to make certain choices, deliberately, to be the person he wishes he could be. They're painting a completely different character in show!Jaime. As amazing as this may sound, yes, when you kiss someone back instead of fighting to resist, it's not rape... You really need to stop this. Unless you've been in the situation yourself you're in no position to judge what the definition of rape is. Just stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tall Tyrion Lannister! Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 No, using it to manipulate him to murder his brother was disgusting behaviour. I don't know if she was really manipulating him though, since he initiated the whole thing. Unless you want to say she did it when they first kissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 MarieAntoinette, It's worth noting that the two times we see Jaime and Cersei have sex in the books, both scenes start with her appearing to resist to a point. I think it's fair to say that the idea of there being a "power-play" aspect to their sexual relationship is at least suggested by the books, so it's not a surprise that the director and actors read it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen of Whores Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Some viewers just clearly don't know what rape is really like, or can't read the situation properly. I'm sorry, but I think it's you that isn't reading this situation properly. And It's a very bold statement accusing people of not knowing what rape is really like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinjonator Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 No, using it to manipulate him to murder his brother was disgusting behaviour. Jaime was the one forcing himself on Cersei, not the other way around. At one point did Cersei say anything to the effect of "I have sex with you, and you kill Tyrion"? Also, even if it did happen that way, and Cersei actually was using sex to "manipulate" Jaime... I don't see how it wouldn't still be his fault for not being able to control his boner. If she tried to manipulate him with sex, he could easily say no if he wanted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoo Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 What is the point of this thread? To prove it was a rape scene? If so, so what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.