Why do they treat Jaime that way?

[Ignorant Bog Woman]

Hmm... intriguing. So what if, next episode, Cersei mentions that she was okay with it (not saying it's gonna happen)? Would most of you feel the same way about Jaime? Would this somewhat redeem the scene?

[direwoofwoof]

Looked like rape. Sounded like rape. And in front of their dead son, creepy rape at that.

Did anyone notice Joff breathing during the alleged rape scene? I definitely saw the sword moving.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Looked like rape. Sounded like rape. And in front of their dead son, creepy rape at that.

Did anyone notice Joff breathing during the alleged rape scene? I definitely saw the sword moving.

I tried looking for it, but I was mostly paying attention to Jaime and Cersei. that scene had to be awkward as fuck for Jack Gleeson to lay down during.

[Inv1ctus]

If that was the case why didn't she initiate and play a more active, 'consensual' role, instead of constantly saying no?

I was saying that would be completely in her character. But by not doing that, the director screwed up. I think it's simple as that, if he says in an interview that the scene wasn't supposed to look like a rape, but it clearly does look like it. If we the book readers thought it was rape, when we were expecting consensual sex. Then unsullied will for sure think it was rape. I was trying to see it as non rape, I really tried hard, but I couldn't see it.

[Ilúvatar]

Hmm... intriguing. So what if, next episode, Cersei mentions that she was okay with it (not saying it's gonna happen)? Would most of you feel the same way about Jaime? Would this somewhat redeem the scene?

I don't expect her to be completely okay with it, but I don't expect her to feel like she's been beaten and raped by a stranger in some dark alley either.

I expect she'll simply say to Jaime it was inappriopriate for them to have sex right next to the corpse of their dead son.

[BasTyra]

I think one of the problems for me was that they've had Jaime come home early and he's already been rejected by Cersei in a pretty shitty way. It made that scene even worse imo. In the show he's been rejected, he knows she doesn't want him and he forces himself on her.

Maybe I need to do a re-read but I don't recall anything like that happening in the books. Hasn't he just returned home when they have that weird coffin sex? When I read it I don't recall cersei being uninterested in Jaime beforehand and I don't remember ever thinking 'rape' - I get that the chapter is jaime's pov and that's an interesting point but, yeah... the scene in the show was pretty cut and dry for me. :/

[Jinjonator]

If their intention was to portray it as "complicated" (however the hell you consider the concept of consent to be complicated) then they failed. The way it was written, and the way it was shown, was clearly rape. The fact that so many people genuinely don't understand the basic concept of "no means no" is seriously terrifying.

[Roose Seal]

Clearly rape.
Gross scene that
1) undermines all the character development Jaime has been through
2) tries to draw sympathy to Cersei by making her a victim, because there's no other way to make a female character sympathetic is there?

This show would be so much better if it weren't written by a bunch of men with the minds of teenage douchebros.

[Queen of Whores]

I don't expect her to be completely okay with it, but I don't expect her to feel like she's been beaten and raped by a stranger in some dark alley either.

Rape is rape, the person doing it and the place is completely irrelevant. It's a state of mind, not the situation.

[Inv1ctus]

If their intention was to portray it as "complicated" (however the hell you consider the concept of consent to be complicated) then they failed. The way it was written, and the way it was shown, was clearly rape. The fact that so many people genuinely don't understand the basic concept of "no means no" is seriously terrifying.

First I read your comment and I completely agree with you. Then I saw your avatar and I just couldn't stop laughing. Imagine Ramsay vehemently despising rape. :)

[Ilúvatar]

If their intention was to portray it as "complicated" (however the hell you consider the concept of consent to be complicated) then they failed. The way it was written, and the way it was shown, was clearly rape. The fact that so many people genuinely don't understand the basic concept of "no means no" is seriously terrifying.

Copying and pasting what I said on the last page.

Let's look at the facts:

1. Do they have an intimate relationship? Yes.

2. Did Cersei kiss Jaime or return his affection at any point during the encounter? Repeatedly.

3. Was any significant force or violence used by Jaime? No.

4. Did Cersei make any significant effort to get away or make him stop? (screaming, clawing at his eyes, etc) No.

It's pretty clear that she was just a bit uncomfortable because the time / mood wasn't right. She made no great effort to resist the way a rape victim would and even submitted at times.

[Ilúvatar]

Rape is rape, the person doing it and the place is completely irrelevant. It's a state of mind, not the situation.

You're conveniently ignoring all the posts and points that prove it wasn't rape.

[Queen of Whores]

You're conveniently ignoring all the posts and points that prove it wasn't rape.

I wasn't ignoring them. I read them all, I addressed only the most recent comment you made, regarding the generalized "raped and beaten in an alley by a stranger" comment.

[Lord of Winterhell]

This is really a hard topic to discuss (esp. for us non-native speakers), b/c rape is a horrible thing and I really hate rape-apologists in real life.

Having said that, I didn't mind the scene, and I don't think it ruined Jaime. I didn't read whole thread, only couple of first posts and it seemed that there's almost a consensus that it was a rape, and it ruined Jaime's redemption arc.

I don't want to comment on rape much - it was a rape, but give super special circumstances of relationship between those two I just can't even compare its impact on Cercei to impact of any victim of real rape (and not because how she is). I wasn't disgusted looking at that scene, and thats a pretty good test for me, since I consider myself pretty sensible about these things.

But my main point is that I really don't think it hurts Jaime as a character. I never read it in the books like he was pure villain before maiming, and then suddenly he became a good guy. He certainly starts to become a better person, but he is still perfectly capable of doing bad things, and forcing Cercei to have sex with him when he wants to after she refused him couple of times before (to the point that he really "needs" it) fits perfectly with his personality. I was a moment of almost lost passion to him (it's not like he'll become a serial rapist now), something like "goodbye Cercei") and I think he will be disgusted afterwards - which again fits perfectly with his changing character.

I agree it would be a better scene if it looked like she agreed at some point, but have no problem with how it went.

[six]

Clearly rape.

Gross scene that

1) undermines all the character development Jaime has been through

2) tries to draw sympathy to Cersei by making her a victim, because there's no other way to make a female character sympathetic is there?

This show would be so much better if it weren't written by a bunch of men with the minds of teenage douchebros.

Mostly this. Why even bothering with his character development last season? It's incredibly inconsistent. Last season he saves Brienne from rape, and this season he's the one doing it to another woman? How does it make sense to anyone? They obviously don't know how to coherently write characters.

I wasn't ignoring them. I read them all, and since I decided they were all rubbish I didn't feel the need to reply to them at this moment, since I probably have previously, as well as others. I addressed only the most recent comment you made, regarding the generalized "raped and beaten in an alley by a stranger" comment.

This, thank you. The "it's not rape" posts are ignorant and vomit inducing, tbh.

[Ilúvatar]

I wasn't ignoring them. I read them all, I addressed only the most recent comment you made, regarding the generalized "raped and beaten in an alley by a stranger" comment.

You've conveniently ignored me when i've pointed out the fact that Cersei kissed Jaime back passionately during the encounter, more than once.

[Queen of Whores]

You've conveniently ignored me when i've pointed out the fact that Cersei kissed Jaime back passionately during the encounter, more than once.

She kisses him passionately before he tries to have sex with her. She stops and clearly shows she doesn't want it to get any further. He doesn't care, and grabs her and begins kissing her, to which she does not kiss back. Even when they are on the floor and he is pulling their clothes off and still kissing her, she is still struggling and not kissing back. Then he says he doesn't care she doesn't want to do this, and the scene ends.

There is no ambiguity here. He raped her.

/thread

[SkaggCannibal]

Because Jaime deep down is still the same despicable person that threw Bran from a tower.

[Jinjonator]

Also, I've heard a lot of arguments saying things about him being "complex", being able to still do both good things and bad things, etc etc. And even if we ignore the fact that that literally doesn't justify any of it... this scene is completely inconsistent with his character. Has Jaime done bad things? Of course (worth noting, also, that saying "he does bad things" is one of the most cartoonish oversimplifications of characterization I've ever seen). But in both the books and the show, Jaime has shown himself to be clearly opposed to rape and finds it abhorrent. The idea that any kind of circumstance would bring someone who abhors rape to commit rape themselves is just absurd.

And submission =/= consent. At no point in the scene did Cersei explicitly consent. That really is the end of that. I find myself worrying greatly about all the people who are determined to convince everyone else that you can force yourself on a person against their will without it being rape.

[BasTyra]

There is no ambiguity here. He raped her.

This.

Also, I've heard a lot of arguments saying things about him being "complex", being able to still do both good things and bad things, etc etc. And even if we ignore the fact that that literally doesn't justify any of it... this scene is completely inconsistent with his character. Has Jaime done bad things? Of course (worth noting, also, that saying "he does bad things" is one of the most cartoonish oversimplifications of characterization I've ever seen). But in both the books and the show, Jaime has shown himself to be clearly opposed to rape and finds it abhorrent. The idea that any kind of circumstance would bring someone who abhors rape to commit rape themselves is just absurd.

And submission =/= consent. At no point in the scene did Cersei explicitly consent. That really is the end of that. I find myself worrying greatly about all the people who are determined to convince everyone else that you can force yourself on a person against their will without it being rape.

YES.