Why do they treat Jaime that way?

[Hippocras]

I don't know if she was really manipulating him though, since he initiated the whole thing. Unless you want to say she did it when they first kissed.

He did NOT initiate the whole thing. Watch it again.

He sent everyone away so she could grieve alone and he could have a private chat. But he made no sexual move. This is in line with her refusals in earlier episodes this season, where she basically said it was over and she didn't want him anymore.

Then she told him he had to kill Tyrion for her. SHE then kissed HIM, and the implication was he could have her again if he obeyed her. Then she backed away and told him again he needed to kill Tyrion. That is when his desire mixed with rage and he forced himself on her.

The whole thing was really a power struggle, and not normal sex OR normal rape but something between. Cersei has been manipulating Jamie his entire life - see his appointment to the Kingsguard. She tried to do it again here, to get him to kill his own brother for her. He did certainly force himself on her, but her distress was more about him taking his own power back from her and him be out of her control than it was about her actually not wanting him or being violated.

It was a power reversal, not an aggressive male taking advantage of a powerless woman.

[six]

I'd be curious to hear grrm's take on this, because I think there's a reason in the books grrm has Cersei voice her consent. It seems to me he didn't want it to appear as rape at all, creepy and fucked up yes, but "do me now!" is nothing like "no, no, no it's not right".

[Roose Seal]

You really need to stop this. Unless you've been in the situation yourself you're in no position to judge what the definition of rape is. Just stop.

Not to mention, Cersei at first kisses Jaime but then says "Stop" repeatedly.

At which point, Jaime slams her on the ground as she whimpers "it's not right, it's not right" and clearly struggles, because Jaime has to hold her down as he pounds aggressively while saying "i don't care"

how the fuck clearer can it be?

Consent has to be ongoing, just because you kiss someone at first doesn't mean you're on board for all the rest. Cersei clearly expresses her disapproval and Jaime clearly chooses to ignore it.

I find it extremely disturbing (yet sadly not so surprising) that anyone would interpret this scene as anything other than rape.

[Queen of Whores]

What is the point of this thread? To prove it was a rape scene? If so, so what?

Well since some people are convinced it wasn't rape, this thread clearly does have a purpose.

Also, it's important because this is a drastic and severe change in a character that is seen by many to be undergoing a redemption arc. To have them rape someone will in that kind of messes up the whole thing.

Therefore, this thread does have a point.

[King of the Road]

Alex Graves attempts to say that it ended up being consensual, so it's not that the producers want to portray Jaime as a rapist. It did kind of come off that way mind. Fault of the director if you ask me, he failed to capture what the scene was evidently supposed to be about.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

He did NOT initiate the whole thing. Watch it again.

He sent everyone away so she could grieve alone and he could have a private chat. But he made no sexual move. This is in line with her refusals in earlier episodes this season, where she basically said it was over and she didn't want him anymore.

Then she told him he had to kill Tyrion for her. She then kissed HIM. Then she backed away and told him again he needed to kill Tyrion. That is when his desire mixed with rage and he forced himself on her.

okay, i couldn't remember if they kissed before or after the tyrion thing came up.

[Jinjonator]

Not to mention, Cersei at first kisses Jaime but then says "Stop" repeatedly.

At which point, Jaime slams her on the ground as she whimpers "it's not right, it's not right" and clearly struggles, because Jaime has to hold her down as he pounds aggressively while saying "i don't care"

how the fuck clearer can it be?

Consent has to be ongoing, just because you kiss someone at first doesn't mean you're on board for all the rest. Cersei clearly expresses her disapproval and Jaime clearly chooses to ignore it.

I find it extremely disturbing (yet sadly not so surprising) that anyone would interpret this scene as anything other than rape.

Seriously. Consent to one act isn't consent to all acts, and the second that consent is rescinded, that's that. If you keep going after they've stopped consenting, that's rape.

[BasTyra]

Alex Graves attempts to say that it ended up being consensual, so it's not that the producers want to portray Jaime as a rapist. It did kind of come off that way mind. Fault of the director if you ask me, he failed to capture what the scene was evidently supposed to be about.

Maybe he was too busy laughing about the fact Jack was lying there while he was directing his 'forced sex' scene.

[six]

Not to mention, Cersei at first kisses Jaime but then says "Stop" repeatedly.

At which point, Jaime slams her on the ground as she whimpers "it's not right, it's not right" and clearly struggles, because Jaime has to hold her down as he pounds aggressively while saying "i don't care"

how the fuck clearer can it be?

Consent has to be ongoing, just because you kiss someone at first doesn't mean you're on board for all the rest. Cersei clearly expresses her disapproval and Jaime clearly chooses to ignore it.

I find it extremely disturbing (yet sadly not so surprising) that anyone would interpret this scene as anything other than rape.

Completely agree, it's disheartening to see people even debating it.

Alex Graves attempts to say that it ended up being consensual, so it's not that the producers want to portray Jaime as a rapist. It did kind of come off that way mind. Fault of the director if you ask me, he failed to capture what the scene was evidently supposed to be about.

Everything was off. The directing, the writing (why couldn't they add a line that made it look like she consented?) and the acting, too. Look at LH the whole time, does she look like someone who's enjoying any of it?

[Chebyshov]

Alex Graves attempts to say that it ended up being consensual, so it's not that the producers want to portray Jaime as a rapist. It did kind of come off that way mind. Fault of the director if you ask me, he failed to capture what the scene was evidently supposed to be about.

This. It makes me really question Alex Graves. As Ran pointed out a few pages ago though, some of it seemed ADRed, so it's possible Alex Graves directed it to seem more consensual and they changed it in post? It's troubling either way though. I mean in what universe would Jaime thrusting and saying "I don't care" repeatedly while Cersei kept saying "don't" in between ever be construed as consensual?

It's not, and it's upsetting.

[Ilúvatar]

Alex Graves attempts to say that it ended up being consensual, so it's not that the producers want to portray Jaime as a rapist. It did kind of come off that way mind. Fault of the director if you ask me, he failed to capture what the scene was evidently supposed to be about.

It's not the director's fault at all if viewers lack the common sense to see that it's not rape.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Completely agree, it's disheartening to see people even debating it.

Everything was off. The directing, the writing (why couldn't they add a line that made it look like she consented?) and the acting, too. Look at LH the whole time, does she look like someone who's enjoying any of it?

yeah, the Writers could have wrote something like " not here" and than like a second or two later she says something like "Fuck it" and they go at it.

[six]

This. It makes me really question Alex Graves. As Ran pointed out a few pages ago though, some of it seemed ADRed, so it's possible Alex Graves directed it to seem more consensual and they changed it in post? It's troubling either way though. I mean in what universe would Jaime thrusting and saying "I don't care" repeatedly while Cersei kept saying "don't" in between ever be construed as consensual?

It's not, and it's upsetting.

I think the whole message that rape is just something that happens, as opposed to something one does and is responsible for, is so so fucking wrong.

[Queen of Whores]

It's not the director's fault at all if viewers lack the common sense to see that it's not rape.

Okay, you don't seem to be giving up on this, so let's simplify it to an example. If you were hypothetically about to have sex with someone, and the other person was constantly begging you to stop and saying 'no,' would you continue to have sex and refuse to stop?

If the answer is no, then you accept the Jaime and Cersei scene was rape, which it was. If you say yes, then you're a rapist. Simple as that.

[Chebyshov]

It's not the director's fault at all if viewers lack the common sense to see that it's not rape.

She says "no," "stop," and "don't" repeatedly during the entire scene, including when Jaime's thrusting, and never gives verbal consent. How is it not rape? Because she kisses him back for 2 seconds?

Even if somehow, upon rewatch, it seems less rapey (though when I viewed it again it seemed worse to me), why on Earth would show-viewers go back and dissect that scene? Her protests were unambiguous, and that's what people saw.

[Hippocras]

He did NOT initiate the whole thing. Watch it again.

He sent everyone away so she could grieve alone and he could have a private chat. But he made no sexual move. This is in line with her refusals in earlier episodes this season, where she basically said it was over and she didn't want him anymore.

Then she told him he had to kill Tyrion for her. SHE then kissed HIM, and the implication was he could have her again if he obeyed her. Then she backed away and told him again he needed to kill Tyrion. That is when his desire mixed with rage and he forced himself on her.

The whole thing was really a power struggle, and not normal sex OR normal rape but something between. Cersei has been manipulating Jamie his entire life - see his appointment to the Kingsguard. She tried to do it again here, to get him to kill his own brother for her. He did certainly force himself on her, but her distress was more about him taking his own power back from her and him be out of her control than it was about her actually not wanting him or being violated.

It was a power reversal, not an aggressive male taking advantage of a powerless woman.

Reposting, because I added some things

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

(why couldn't they add a line that made it look like she consented?)

Absolutely. That is all it would have taken.

It would have then been a clearly 'complicated' and extremely uncomfortable scene between two fucked up individuals. Without that line the whole scene changes. They really dropped the ball here.

[Hoo]

I thought it was a great scene. Cersei is weak, she is undecided, she says stop it, it's not right, while kissing him. He is strong and continues, he does not care about objections. It is a dramatic scene. It shows Jamie strong, taking control or trying to reestablish what he had prior to the exodus. It shows Cersei weak, undecided, lost. It is sex and it is a clash, they are reunited but separated. He gets what he wants that moment, but loses it? It's all that. And it is consistent with his arc.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

As amazing as this may sound, yes, when you kiss someone back instead of fighting to resist, it's not rape...

Wow.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Okay, you don't seem to be givi

ng up on this, so let's simplify it to an example. If you were hypothetically about to have sex with someone, and the other person was constantly begging you to stop and saying 'no,' would you continue to have sex and refuse to stop?

If the answer is no, then you accept the Jaime and Cersei scene was rape, which it was. If you say yes, then you're a rapist. Simple as that.

Also even if she consented to letting him kiss her, it doesn't mean that's the go ahead to start having sex. Just like if i we're to say "yeah lets do it" to a girl. doesn't mean she has free reign to do whatever she wants if i don't want her to.