[Show and Book SPOILERS] I don't understand [scene with Cersei and Jaime]

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

And the creators of the world and the rules have stablished that it was not intended to be a rape.

That's because it wasn't their intention for it to come off as rape, although, I wouldn't doubt whoever came up with the finishing product actually did it on purpose. It wouldn't be the first time.

Besides, rape is not something that is defined by culture, laws, or time. Like killing, eating or sleeping. It's an action.

[HairGrowsBack]

I disagree. We can also judge it according to some other time or some other country. The perspective of an act and its definitions change with the time and place.

People was saying before about putting Jaime in jail and whatsoever. Do they mean in a 2014 jail?

What I mean is that the fact that is is rape or not (and it is) in western world 2014 it is irrelevant since it happens in another world, with another rules. And the creators of the world and the rules have stablished that it was not intended to be a rape.

First of all, the series is written by people living on modern moral standards, who know very well the readers/viewers are going to judge the characters according mostly to said modern standards.

There was a time when it was completely acceptable for a 12+ year old to be forced into having sex with much, much older men ; there are places where it's considered normal (or even, the right thing to do) to violently kill women because they've cheated on their husbands, or for little girls to go through genital mutilation. So basically you're saying you have no problem with it ?

[gatafunho]

First of all, the series is written by people living on modern moral standards, who know very well the readers/viewers are going to judge the characters according mostly to said modern standards.

There was a time when it was completely acceptable for a 12+ year old to be forced into having sex with much, much older men ; there are places where it's considered normal (or even, the right thing to do) to violently kill women because they've cheated on their husbands, or for little girls to go through genital mutilation. So basically you're saying you have no problem with it ?

Have I said I have no problem with it?

Please don't put words in my mouth I have not said.

I said that judging a character with modern moral standards when is set up in a fictional world makes no sense.

Following your example, nowadays is not acceptable to put a 8 y.o to work, but in Westeros it is, and nobody is calling them children exploiters, because we understand that moral rules in westeros are different.

I just claim that with this scene we might be under the same case. It is rape in 2014 but it might not exactly considered like that in westeros.

Besides, rape is not something that is defined by culture, laws, or time. Like killing, eating or sleeping. It's an action.

This is were we disagree. A person is sleeping in the year 1492 or in the year 2014. And we all agree that it is sleeping.

An action falls in the category of rape in 2014, but for some cases, a person seing it from 1492 might disagree. I thing place, culture and specially time affect the definition of an action, including the definition of the scene we are discussing.

[Ilúvatar]

Besides, rape is not something that is defined by culture, laws, or time. Like killing, eating or sleeping. It's an action.

Of course it's defined by laws, in the same way that murder is... otherwise a lot of the people who serve their countries during war are murderers.

Sex is an action. Killing is an action. Law determines whether either act is rape or murder.

[Roxane De]

Why does it matter so much ? Because it makes me hate Jaime now although he was one of my favourite in the books. Also I told everyone that Jaime's going to be a good guy and that everybody will love him and now everybody is arguing with me because ot that scene. Yeah so that's why it's a bigger change to me than any other change they made, besides that the scene was really horrible to watch.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

Of course it's defined by laws, in the same way that murder is... otherwise a lot of the people who serve their countries during war are murderers.

Sex is an action. Killing is an action. Law determines whether either act is rape or murder.

Murder =/= Rape

Rape = Forcing someone to have sex (my view)

The law does not decide whether a person gives consent or not. It only decides if their consent holds any relevance.

[Ilúvatar]

Why does it matter so much ? Because it makes me hate Jaime now although he was one of my favourite in the books. Also I told everyone that Jaime's going to be a good guy and that everybody will love him and now everybody is arguing with me because ot that scene. Yeah so that's why it's a bigger change to me than any other change they made, besides that the scene was really horrible to watch.

This basically confirms my point earlier that a lot of viewers can't handle morally complicated characters. They want simple goodies and baddies they can boo at and cheer for, which is a shame in my opinion.

[gatafunho]

This basically confirms my point earlier that a lot of viewers can't handle morally complicated characters. They want simple goodies and baddies they can boo at and cheer for, which is a shame in my opinion.

This ! :drunk:

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

I don't mind the scene. It showed that Cersei was physically repulsed by Jaime's crippledness. Jaime got his hand cut off for trying to prevent a rape, so that later his lover rejected him for it, which lead him to be a rapist.

It's not the best thing in the world, but it's interesting how things circled around.

[Ilúvatar]

Murder =/= Rape

Rape = Forcing someone to have sex (my view)

I didn't say murder = rape. They're similar though in the sense that they're both crimes defined by law.

The law does not decide whether a person gives consent or not. It only decides if their consent holds any relevance.

The law doesn't decide whether someone kills another human being. They decide whether the killing was unlawful, malicious, premeditated etc. just as they decide whether a sexual encounter was a nonconsensual form of assault.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

This basically confirms my point earlier that a lot of viewers can't handle morally complicated characters. They want simple goodies and baddies they can boo at and cheer for, which is a shame in my opinion.

Agreed. It's also leaking into GOT, as well. Just look at how they handle Mel, Stannis and compare it to Tyrion, Daenerys. None of these characters are distinctly "better" than another when it comes to "morals" but they constantly focus on the negatives of Mel and Stannis and never show the negatives of Tyrion or Daenerys.

Let's be honest, you're not playing the game of thrones right if you don't squash a few innocent people in the process, but they almost never show Tyrion or Dany in those situations.

[ovis alba]

This basically confirms my point earlier that a lot of viewers can't handle morally complicated characters. They want simple goodies and baddies they can boo at and cheer for, which is a shame in my opinion.

I think the "problem" with Jaime is, people already had to change their mind about him once, he turned from bad to good and shouldn't turn back now.

I however also see that many people even only-show-watchers (where even me while knowing the books find it harder to see the "greyness" of a lot of characters) in Jaimes case see him similar to me: Yes, he indeed really changed for the better, but being back in his old circumstances is kind of tearing him out of those cirsumstances that helped to make him a better person again, which is kind of a "relapse". It's like the addict coming back from the clinic, where he was seperated from his other addicted friends and where it was easier to stay clean, but once back in "real life" it gets tougher and he has still to learn to be a better person also in his "old world".

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

I didn't say murder = rape. They're similar though in the sense that they're both crimes defined by law.

The law doesn't decide whether someone kills another human being. They decide whether the killing was unlawful, malicious, premeditated etc. just as they decide whether a sexual encounter was a nonconsensual form of assault.

The law does not decide whether forcing someone to have sex is rape or not. Forcing someone to have sex IS rape, regardless of what the law says. The law decides whether or not that person's consent is relevant.

If the laws in U.S.A. are not against me forcing women to have sex, it doesn't mean if I took advantage of those laws that I wouldn't be a rapist. I would just be committing lawful rape.

[FalseKnight]

Of course it's defined by laws, in the same way that murder is... otherwise a lot of the people who serve their countries during war are murderers.

Sex is an action. Killing is an action. Law determines whether either act is rape or murder.

No law determines whether the action is punishable. Rape and murder are concepts the pre-date legal definitions.

[Annara Snow]

You're actually getting closer to the other part of my peeve with this scene. In addition to making Jaime a rapist, they made Cersei a wuss. Book Cersei was crazy and and evil and not nearly as smart as she thought she was, but she was no one's wuss. If book-Jaime had tried that crap, book-Cersei would have slammed his unhealed stump hard and put a knee in his nuts and left him groaning on the floor. Jaime is the powerless one in that scene in the book -- begging Cersei to love him, to marry him even -- and Cersei's the one in charge.

Yet on the show, Cersei is suddenly a victim. Why? They've already stripped Cersei of so much of her agency by making her nicer. Instead of deciding "Hell no, I won't give Robert any kids!" and aborting his kid (not nice, but powerful!) she bears him a son who dies in infancy instead, because that's nicer and it makes it look like she actually tried to be a good wife to him and he didn't appreciate it.

Book-Cersei was a nasty piece of work but she had agency. She made her own choices and acted on them -- to the detriment of all Westeros, yes, but at least she wasn't passive and helpless.

Show Cersei is a weakling, and that's all wrong.

Thank you. I feel the same about the show version of Cersei and I always hated the changes they made to her relationship with Robert. And then they also made her look powerless in her relationship with Joffrey. Book Cersei is powerless with one man only, her father. She never complains that she can't control Joffrey.

I hate when people say that show Cersei is more "complex" than book Cersei. A character does not become more complex by being stripped of their power, agency and rough edges.

[FalseKnight]

Of course it matters. You can't willingly have sex with someone and then claim rape.

If anyone is the victim, it's Jaime for being manipulated so Cersei can get what she wants.

Your perspective is frankly scary. You have argued that her mouth said no, but her body said yes. Now you argue that Jaime is the victim because Cersei manipulated him. You could hit the trifecta by arguing that she wore a really slutty funeral gown.

[Ilúvatar]

No law determines whether the action is punishable. Rape and murder are concepts the pre-date legal definitions.

Sorry, you're wrong. Even the word "rape" itself originates from Roman law, and back then it was defined as simply carrying a woman off by force, regardless of whether any sexual penetration occurred.

What's considered rape in some countries or in certain historical periods isn't considered rape in others.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

nd then they also made her look powerless in her relationship with Joffrey. Book Cersei is powerless with one man only, her father. She never complains that she can't control Joffrey.

Results of showrunners making everybody older "because we cannot suggest 14 y.o. having sex and stuff" are going to haunt this TV Show till it's very demise.

[Hellothere]

Sorry, you're wrong. Even the word "rape" itself originates from Roman law, and back then it was defined as simply carrying a woman off by force, regardless of whether any sexual penetration occurred.

What's considered rape in some countries or in certain historical periods isn't considered rape in others.

So there is no such thing as rape unless there is a state law defining it?

I sincerely hope you are trolling. If you are it's very well executed.

[Annara Snow]

Can you rape a whore if she's taking your money and voluntarily doing her job? If she refuses your money, and her services to you, and you still fuck her against her will, that's not only rape, but theft.

I don't remember, is that what happened?

She wasn't doing anything voluntarily. She was a slave. Her master was taking the money and agreeing to things, not her. Tyrion observed her "dead eyes" (which sounds like his memory of Tysha dead eyes, to make it creepier) and thought "I'm fucking a corpse" and then he did it again anyway.