[Show and Book SPOILERS] I don't understand [scene with Cersei and Jaime]

[Opethian]

Too much thinking based on rules and absolutes here. Jaime didn't rape Cersei. Their relationship has always been vicious. It won't even be mentioned next episode.

This is the part that seems to be driving everyone crazy for some odd reason. If people truly only cared about Jaime's character being changed, then they wouldn't be saying things like "Jaime better be punished next episode!"

The overall outrage is not about Jaime's character being changed, but more about people thinking GoT is a documentary and these are not actors.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

This is the part that seems to be driving everyone crazy for some odd reason. If people truly only cared about Jaime's character being changed, then they wouldn't be saying things like "Jaime better be punished next episode!"

The overall outrage is not about Jaime's character being changed, but more about people thinking GoT is a documentary and these are not actors.

No, for me it's about frustration that such a huge mistake can be made, but the tv audience will be expected to develop amnesia and just continue with the story. All tv writers can be guilty of this, they take the audience for granted, pull insane shit, and expect everyone to just show up the next week and swallow whatever nonsensical bullshit they have taped without getting whiplash.

[gvewolf243]

That scene pissed off me so much , when i was watching it.

[Chebyshov]

Here's my final response to the OP and my thoughts on the subject. I wrote this for something else, so I apologize for repeating some points I've made here already. I don't think the TV writers made a mistake here, and this is really my defense of what's depicted.

From what I can tell, the controversy is borne of two things:

1. The director of the scene, Alex Graves, has stated that this scene “becomes consensual” by the end, and

2. The claim that the scene in the show differs greatly from the scene in the books; the scene in the books is not one of rape, the show is likely using this for shock value, and this ruins Jaime’s characterization

I’d like to address both of these points, in order.

Point 1 is simpler to address. The scene in the show is not one of consensual sex. To say that sex can “become” consensual is a troubling notion. I’m not sure why Graves said this (whether it was in response to people being upset with this scene, or if Graves was hoping to point to some sort of subtlety in the scene), but he should not have, and is certainly wrong for suggesting it. The show-runners view this as a rape, and since that initial interview, Graves has described the scene as forced sex (along with another interesting comment about it that I’ll get to when addressing point 2). I’m glad people jumped on his comments that it “became consensual,” because they should have, but then this controversy becomes less about the content of the scene and more about somebody’s blundered commentary on it. But what Graves meant with these poorly chosen remarks leads us into point 2.

This point, which is rather difficult to unpack, asserts that the scene was not one of rape in the books, and this was a change in the show. Here is the text below.

There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened

for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The

septons . . . ”

“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until

she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s

altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with

feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons,

about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and

pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her

smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it

made no difference.

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime

Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother,

sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re

home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her

flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood

and seed where they were joined.

But no sooner were they done than the queen said, “Let me up. If we are discovered like

this . . . ”

This is a complicated scene, and most people focus on the fact that Cersei does give verbal consent eventually and guides him in as a point that it wasn’t rape. Even Martin himself has described Cersei as being relatively on-board with the sex, though notes that she finds the time and place wildly inappropriate. However, I would argue that this scene is not one that depicts consensual sex.

Rape is a sexual act carried out against someone’s will through force or coercion. What a rape looks like is unique. We even use terms like “date-rape” to differentiate the way in which sexual assaults occur. But is that to say that there are shades of rape? That some rape is worse than others? I find this notion distasteful, and one that leads us towards a dangerous conversation. I think a problem arises when you try to define what is and isn’t rape.

Some have argued that the scene in the book is one of “sexual assault,” not “rape.” Some have argued that the book scene is “rapey,” but won’t come out and say “rape.” We can argue the semantics of it all we like, but I think to assert that this scene is incredibly different from what we saw on screen is a fallacious argument.

I will paraphrase a forum post I read yesterday that I think puts it well: it seems to me a dangerous place that when I say “no” and a man still undresses me, puts his hand between my legs, even if I continue hitting him as a sign of rejection, and he doesn’t once “hear it” or even consider it as him starting to rape me, because he thinks I would eventually agree.

Just because Cersei may be “hungry” for Jaime (as Martin puts it), or willing in most circumstances doesn’t mean that she forfeits the right to say “no” to his advances. He doesn’t hear it…he doesn’t care. To me, this is a scene of rape. Cersei was not comfortable having sex in the sept, next to her son’s bier, and who’s to blame her? Jaime forces himself on her, and the idea that this is somehow mitigated because she “gets into it” sets a very troubling precedent.

I think Graves was going for a scene more like what was described in the book (not that it is less of rape, but certainly different in tone), which is why he made the comments about the scene that he did. Some people have tried to help Graves out by noting that Cersei kisses Jaime back in the midst of the attack, and visible pulls him closer. I would argue that this was incredibly unclear upon first viewing. I would also argue that we should in no way judge what a woman should look like and act like while being raped. If Graves was hoping to have a more of a morally ambiguous rape scene, like what is in the books, I think he failed. The dialogue is that of unequivocal rape, as we hear Cersei’s repeated objections and even sobs. The dialogue is also heavily emphasized, to the point where Jaime’s last “I don’t care” echoes into the next scene, even after the visual has changed.

This scene was difficult to watch, but in a way, I’d prefer not to have violence against women portrayed as being morally ambiguous (or even defensible, as we’ve seen many rush to justify Jaime’s actions in the book). The television depiction forced us to deal with the fact that Jaime forced himself on his sister in front of their son’s corpse. The book’s setting, from inside Jaime’s head, “softens” the blow of this fact. And people’s fetishization of a redemption arc and love of Jaime’s character has caused many to look at his character with rose-colored glasses. I’d argue that the TV show stripped us of that lens.

This brings us to the claims that Show!Jaime is out of character, whereas Book!Jaime is within character, because even if both scenes are depictions of rape, they have a different “feel” and “tone.” Yes, they do. In the show, Jaime attacks Cersei in a bout of anger, whereas in the book, Jaime is in a bout of “passion.” But let me argue that neither is out of character, because his character is a far darker-grey than I think avid book fans want to admit.

Note: when I’m explaining Jaime’s mentality and “motivations” (for lack of a better word), I am not, in anyway way, attempting to absolve him of guilt, justify what happened, or indicate that we should be okay with it. I’m merely trying to explain the dynamics at play, and why I think it is consistent with Jaime’s characterization. Let’s start with the books.

In the books, Jaime and Cersei have one of the most messed up relationships. I’ve heard it defined as one of the most loving and pure at times. It is not. It has a corrosive effect on Jaime, which is why the same man who we saw heroically rescue Brienne at great risk to himself is the man who also attempted to murder a seven-year old. I’ve heard the argument that pushing Bran from the tower is justified because he was trying to protect himself and Cersei. I’d argue instead that pre-losing his hand and going through his “redemption arc,” Jaime was not a very good man, and his relationship with Cersei brought out some of the worst in him.

Here’s a scene in the books where Jaime is reflecting (out loud, to the mute Ilyn Payne) on what he would have done to Ayra during the King’s Road incident:

“Ned Stark’s daughter had run off after her wolf savaged Joff, you’ll recall. My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. They fought for half the night... well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank. Past midnight, the queen summoned me inside. The king was passed out snoring on the Myrish carpet. I asked my sister if she wanted me to carry him to bed. She told me I should carry her to bed, and shrugged out of her robe. I took her on Raymun Darry’s bed after stepping over Robert. If His Grace had woken I would have killed him there and then. He would not have been the first king to die upon my sword... but you know that story, don’t you?” He slashed at a tree branch, shearing it in half. “As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, ‘I want.’ I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead.” The things I do for love. “It was only by chance that Stark’s own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first...”

This was Jaime’s mentality before his “redemption” arc in the 2^nd and 3^rd books/seasons. Would this Jaime have tried to save Brienne? I sincerely doubt it. His relationship with Cersei is a toxic, corrosive one that is often characterized as a “power-struggle” and punctuated by moments of violence. It is unhealthy. Even the scene Bran espies is one of dubious consent:

There were soft, wet sounds. Bran realized they were kissing. He watched, wide -eyed and frightened, his breath tight in his throat. The man had a hand down between her legs, and he must have been hurting her there, because the woman s tarted to moan, low in her throat. "Stop it," she said, "stop it, stop it. Oh, please . . ." But her voice was low and weak, and she did not push him away. Her hands buried themselves in his hair, his tangled golden hair, and pulled his face down to her breast.

Book!Jaime’s reunion with Cersei is the sept scene. Since being away, Jaime lost a hand, which set him on a redemptive path. I hate to describe rape as a “relapse,” but in many ways for Jaime, it was. He was once again back, near this woman who has been a very destructive force in his life. He found himself sucked right back into that dynamic, and excited by risk, violence, and depravity, forced himself on Cersei. Whether Cersei was turned on by it is moot; when she voiced her objections the scene should have stopped there. In reflection afterwards, Jaime notes that “If the sept had caught fire I might never have noticed.” This is a low point for his character in the books, as he couldn’t help himself from relapsing back to and engaging in their problematic dynamic, which is highlighted by the inappropriateness of its location.

Show!Jaime hits a very similar low note, through very similar means, though the way in which the scene unfolds is decidedly different. In the show, Jaime is now in the place of the spurned lover. Cersei is repulsed by his stump, and unhappy with his selflessness when it comes to Brienne (as evidenced in episodes 1 and 2, respectively). Whether she is right in rejecting him is irrelevant to the discussion of what happens, however. If I haven’t made one thing clear enough, it is that Cersei did NOT deserve to be raped, and Jaime’s actions (both in the book and show) are NOT justified.

In the sept, the scene begins with Cersei attempting to manipulate Jaime. She asks him to kill their brother, and kisses him in an attempt to solidify his support. When she pulls away, and turns her attention back towards her dead son (as is her right), Jaime realizes what she was attempting to do. For him, this is a moment of being hit in the face with his past demons; he sees Cersei as she is, a “hateful” woman who has caused him to do “hateful” things (attempted child-murder, and kinslaying in the show). And what happens? He snaps. Is it right? No. Is it justified? No. But in a complicated way, Jaime attacking Cersei is him committing a violent crime against himself, or rather who he was.

To quote Alex Graves again, from the previously linked interview, when asked why Joffrey’s body needed to be in the frame so prominently, Graves responds, "He is their first born. He is their sin. He is their lust, and their love—their everything. If he's gone, what's going to happen? Jaime is still trying to believe as hard as he possibly can that he's in love with Cersei. He can't admit that he is traumatized by his family and he's been forced his whole life to be something he doesn't want to be. What he is—but has to deny—is he is actually the good knight, like Brienne."

Now, I’d argue with Graves that there are no truly good knights (or people) in Westeros, but what he says paints this scene as one that is nuanced and complex. I’m not saying that the question of “was it rape?” is nuanced; it was clearly a case of rape. But what I’m saying is that Jaime does snap when suddenly faced with his past. It’s not that he’s a good knight, but he did return to King’s Landing a better man than he was.

And this is why he suddenly doesn’t care. He realizes in that moment that he has given everything, done everything for a “hateful” woman. He’s pushed Bran out the window, started a war, fathered children that he could never be close to, etc. And this sort of all comes crashing down on him in that moment of anger; he has to love Cersei despite the fact that she’s his twin, despite the fact that their son’s corpse is right there, despite the fact that they could get caught, despite the fact that Cersei is begging him to stop. It’s not okay; it’s not an appropriate reaction; it’s not a justified moment. But I think it is perfectly in character with who he is. And in fact, even though it was darker, and very upsetting to watch, I feel like it was an almost better portrayal of Jaime’s character.

For people to say the show has committed a sin here I think is a stretch; they’re not using the rape as a shock value, and they’re not inventing it out of thin air. It’s in the book, but because of the timeline change they made, Jaime’s emotions in the scene are different. I think both fit with his character, both are instances of rape, and both are supposed to disturb us. Those who cry “character assassination” are looking for a clean redemption arc that simply doesn’t exist. Those who cry that Alex Graves may have a messed up view of consensual sex have a point.

As a final point, there’s an argument to be made that if Martin doesn’t view his book scene as rape, or if Cersei doesn’t view either instance as rape, then we shouldn’t consider it such. First of all, however I don’t think we can make blanket statements as to how rape victims “should” act after the fact. Secondly, if Jaime and Cersei were real people, then perhaps they’d be the only ones with a right to comment, despite the fact that they engage in a largely abusive relationship. But they’re not. They’re fictionalized characters in books and a show, which we are interacting with now. I think we should be allowed to comment on the sexual violence that both mediums depict.

Thirdly, Martin is not the man who gets to define what is or is not “rape.” He also doesn’t explicitly say it was consensual…he merely points out the dynamic is different because Cersei’s just lost a son and feared her brother/lover was dead and he suddenly appears. If Martin does mean to say that Cersei does not consider the encounter a rape, then that’s a fine comment to make. And to that I would point to my previous assertions about their relationship being one of dysfunction, which I think Martin has been clearly trying to paint throughout his books.

For me, criticizing Graves for his remarks that the show scene is one of sex that “becomes consensual” is fair. I think it would have been best if, like the showrunners, he tried to explain why it is an aggravated rape scene and how that works in the context of the timeline and Jaime’s character arc.

However, I find the criticism that this scene somehow was out of place or ruined Jaime’s characterization to be false. Jaime’s a troubled figure, who is like to be grappling with the incredibly messed up nature of his relationship with Cersei for a long time, both in the books and the show. If you thought he was going to have a straight-forward and happy redemption arc…you haven’t been paying attention.

[DaveyJoe]

If we oversimplify and distort things, then yes he "acts like a rapist" at times in both scenarios.

If we're grown ups who actually care about nuance and context, there is a world of difference between making an inappropriately aggressive pass at someone which is ultimately received in a consensual manner versus sexually forcing yourself upon someone who never at any point consents to your advance.

It's really, really freaking simple. The fact that 70+ pages into this conversation there are still people who don't get it is quite frankly extremely alarming.

There's no nuance in the cheesy lines "do me do me quick." I don't think there's any need to insult me by implying that you have the grown up opinion. I think people are upset because this scene makes Jaime look bad, where I think the book scene makes him look plenty bad. The way I read the scene Jaime is forcing himself on Cersei and would not have suddenly stopped for any reason. Thank god GRRM had Cersei give consent so we can continue to like Jaime, though. I'm just curious where we draw the line and decide it's okay to forgive somebody for their rapacious behavior. Again, Jaime's behavior in the show is quite consistent, it's Cersei that behaves differently by not giving verbal consent. You are all sugarcoating Jaime's actions in the book.

[digiFemme]

The funny thing is that I agree with the beginning: Especially at this point (especially after losing a hand, a son, and another king) he would do anything to preserve the relationsship with Cersei, because that's almost all he has left and that he cares about, but that's exactly why I disagree with the fact he wouldn't do it. Because as weird as it sounds, due to how distubring, weird and completly destructive their relationship is, what happens in the Sept is part of exactly that: Preserving their relationship (which "getting physical" is a huge part of).

Would it be out of character for Jaime at this point to rape any other woman: yes, I would go as far as even sleeping with another woman would be out of character as it would be cheating on Cersei.

I know this might sound extremly weird to any sane person, but this is how messed up I see their relationship.

I guess I just don't see how his doing that to her will preserve their relationship. It does the opposite, IMHO. If he did anything she didn't want or made her truly angry to the point of not forgiving him, she'd definitely retaliate and find a way to end what was going on between them. As reckless as Jaime is, I think he knows this. The fact that they have to sneak around makes it difficult enough for them...but if she chose simply not to be with him, she could. And that could happen if he hurt her.

As twisted as Cersei is (yes, she likes it rough and vicious as she is), I don't think she'd stand for anyone to do that to her (even Jaime); in fact, since rape is an act of power over another person I'd go so far as to say I find it easier to see her attempt it rather than tolerate being a victim of it.

This is not to say that Cersei isn't a victim in general. I see her as both a victim and as an antagonist. But her relationship with Jaime was the one part of her life where she didn't play that part...even if it didn't do them any good.

This is the part that seems to be driving everyone crazy for some odd reason. If people truly only cared about Jaime's character being changed, then they wouldn't be saying things like "Jaime better be punished next episode!"

The overall outrage is not about Jaime's character being changed, but more about people thinking GoT is a documentary and these are not actors.

I can see why they are confused. These characters are fictional and aren't depicted as a hundred percent realistic, even if the writer does show some realities when it comes to the darker side of human nature. It makes them very hard to interpret...I felt that GRRM was writing opposite arcs for Tyrion and Jaime where the former got worse as the series progressed whereas the latter went the opposite in that he 'got better' Not arguing how realistic this is btw. But sometimes the changes in the TV show can give mixed signals.

[Faydra]

However, having said that, if a woman is saying, "no" "stop" while she's forcibly pulling her "rapist" towards herself and passionately kissing him, I really have to make the judgement call that those actions matter.

This is a fickle subject... What the body wants, the mind rejects ("It's not right"). This is like giving a cookie to a person on a diet. Obviously, if they're weak, they'll take it. Tempting one might be seen as evil. The actions that you're talking about show that she's weak and nothing more. That the producers had in mind to film something else, I have no doubt. However, this consensual sex scene was poorly executed here.

[ovis alba]

I guess I just don't see how his doing that to her will preserve their relationship. It does the opposite, IMHO. If he did anything she didn't want or made her truly angry to the point of not forgiving him, she'd definitely retaliate and find a way to end what was going on between them. As reckless as Jaime is, I think he knows this. The fact that they have to sneak around makes it difficult enough for them...but if she chose simply not to be with him, she could. And that could happen if he hurt her.

I personally also don't think it does preserve the relationship, I just think that in Jaime's head at that very moment "being with Cersei" is the only thing that is able to make things better again for both (!) of them. It's his way of fixing things in that moment. Maybe a little bit comparable to the typical slap in the face of a person that is just having a breakdown due to something horrible happening.

I don't thing there is much logical thinking behind it, it's: our life is messed up - finally we are back together - let's really be together and everything will be better now. That's why to me they still somewhat messed up the scene due to placing it at a different point, where they already met, because that takes part of the "finally, now I need it here and right now" away from the scene, but overall I don't see Jaimes arc ruined as I read the scene already in the books more "grey" then some might argue here and the Jaime arc still makes a lot of sense to me, because I never saw it much different than what we end up with now in the show.

[DaveyJoe]

Excellent post, Chebyshov, I agree wtih your interpretations of the book and show scene.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

There's no nuance in the cheesy lines "do me do me quick." I don't think there's any need to insult me by implying that you have the grown up opinion. I think people are upset because this scene makes Jaime look bad, where I think the book scene makes him look plenty bad. The way I read the scene Jaime is forcing himself on Cersei and would not have suddenly stopped for any reason. Thank god GRRM had Cersei give consent so we can continue to like Jaime, though. I'm just curious where we draw the line and decide it's okay to forgive somebody for their rapacious behavior. Again, Jaime's behavior in the show is quite consistent, it's Cersei that behaves differently by not giving verbal consent. You are all sugarcoating Jaime's actions in the book.

Lowering your head and minding your own business as you walk down the sidewalk is an understandable act which would be silly for someone to criticize.

Unless you just passed a little kid being beaten on the street and your response was lowering your head and minding your own business as you walk down the sidewalk.

Context and nuance matter.

[Opethian]

[...]

Thirdly, Martin is not the man who gets to define what is or is not “rape.” He also doesn’t explicitly say it was consensual…he merely points out the dynamic is different because Cersei’s just lost a son and feared her brother/lover was dead and he suddenly appears.

[...]

In The Winds of Winter, if Martin decides to right in a Cersei chapter "Hey Jaime, remember that time we had totally consensual sex in the Sept? That was great!", then guess what, it wasn't rape. It's Martin's world.

[ovis alba]

In The Winds of Winter, if Martin decides to right in a Cersei chapter "Hey Jaime, remember that time we had totally consensual sex in the Sept? That was great!", then guess what, it wasn't rape. It's Martin's world.

Sorry but I disagree. The world is what Martin describes it, yes. But eventually the way he describes it and the characters in it, is making up a picture in my head about how I feel about it and the characters and this is and can not be not mixed with my believes and experiences in life so far. So there are things that Martin will not be able to decide for me and this includes how I feel about certain people and situations.

[Ser Not Appearing]

Just because there are so many posts about this scene and the books, I feel the need to keep presenting this for reference. I'd hope that opinions on the book are based on what the author has to say about various character motivations, as it would be those characters who consented or not. Regardless of how you interpret it, GRRMs opinion on what characters think should be the base of that interpretation.

The more full quote from GRRM:

In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffreys death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each others company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why [producers] played the sept out differently. But thats just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaimes POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You dont know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cerseis dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

Thats really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.

[Chebyshov]

In The Winds of Winter, if Martin decides to right in a Cersei chapter "Hey Jaime, remember that time we had totally consensual sex in the Sept? That was great!", then guess what, it wasn't rape. It's Martin's world.

Graves defined the show scene as one that "turned consensual," and yet I think it's right that we view it as a rape scene.

Martin is not the authority of what "rape" vs. "consent" looks like. He can comment on how violence against women is dealt with in his world, or how characters respond to it. If his point is that to Jaime and Cersei, it wasn't rape, then I'd direct you to my comments that I make afterwards, saying that it showcases the problematic nature of their relationship. However, if Martin is saying that a women in Cersei's position is not being raped, then that brings up more troubling concerns about his own views. But because he was vague and doesn't explicitly state this, let's not go there.

[Starksmustwin]

People pay too much attention to Cersei's words and not enough to her actions themselves. She clearly physically wanted him too as she was kissing and gropping him back. By the end, it was clear that her objection was due to her dead son being in the room. Also, Jaime's "I don't care" was clearly in response to that objection.

[DaveyJoe]

Lowering your head and minding your own business as you walk down the sidewalk is an understandable act which would be silly for someone to criticize.

Unless you just passed a little kid being beaten on the street and your response was lowering your head and minding your own business as you walk down the sidewalk.

Context and nuance matter.

That is a really sillly analogy. You're basically saying that it's okay that book Jaime forced himself on Cersei because she eventually gave in. You can talk about the nuance and complexity of their relationship, and I would agree that it's there, but I wouldn't go so far as to excuse Jaime's rapacious behavior in the books.

[Ilúvatar]

People pay too much attention to Cersei's words and not enough to her actions themselves. She clearly physically wanted him too as she was kissing and gropping him back. By the end, it was clear that her objection was due to her dead son being in the room. Also, Jaime's "I don't care" was clearly in response to that objection.

:agree:

[digiFemme]

I'm not trying to offend anyone here but surely anyone can see why the text is more than a bit complicated- and no doubt the reason why people end up interpreting the scenes in different ways?

Let's say that I agree that it WAS rape in the text. Well, in a realistic scenario, what woman would do this

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime

Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother,

sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re

home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her

flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood

and seed where they were joined.

after saying no, protesting, hitting the guy, telling him to stop, etc? It's almost like a Jekyll/Hyde reaction?!

In a realistic scenario, what woman would (after the act) behave as if nothing bad happened with nothing more than a, 'oh we could've been caught!' reaction? And probably sneak off to meet him again after?

The problem is that we are comparing real life situations to twisted fictional characters who have very disturbing relationships in a hyper-exaggerated negative world. I'm not necessarily closed to other people's interpretation of the text as rape...but my question is, if Cersei didn't like how she and Jaime got on, why didn't she simply shout out for help? Why was she tolerating it? Unlike her situation with Robert, she had the power to stop him but all their encounters turn out a certain, predictable, way.

In those exact circumstances in the Sept, she could've hit him, bit him or shouted with so many septons (not to mention their father) nearby. If she feared discovery when they came upon them she could've just made up some excuse for her shout, and used their presence to leave the Sept...and after that, made sure she and Jaime were never alone. She CAN and is capable of doing that.

Rape is about power. And ok...for the sake of argument, I'm not going to argue with however people choose to interpret the text.

If we are to agree that Jaime did rape Cersei in the sept...then shouldn't we agree that he raped her in practically all their encounters (since the text does describe it that way- with her protesting at first, then giving in, etc). ; if that's the case, are we to agree that Cersei is Jaime's victim? Given the characters personalities in mind- given that Cersei hated her time with Robert and craves power, she doesn't strike me as the type (twisted as she is) who would tolerate such. This is where it gets difficult for me...I don't see Cersei as Jaime's victim.

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For the record, I think the way it came out in the TV ep was badly done. I don't think the show runners meant for it to come out that way, but they were careless and should've reviewed the scene before releasing it. This is how I feel about the many changes from the book...before you whitewash a character, or give more scenes to another character (even if her role isn't supposed to be that big) at the expense of another(who is supposed to have a bigger role in the grand scheme of things), please think how it will affect the overall story and character developments in the future.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

That is a really sillly analogy. You're basically saying that it's okay that book Jaime forced himself on Cersei because she eventually gave in.

Because I recognize the distinction between the 2 I automatically condone 1 or the other?

Yeah, ok... :rolleyes:

[Opethian]

Graves defined the show scene as one that "turned consensual," and yet I think it's right that we view it as a rape scene.

Martin is not the authority of what "rape" vs. "consent" looks like...

[...]

Katydids look like leaves, but they arent leaves; they are bugs. You don't get to say "Well, some people think its a bug, but I think its a leaf. So let's agree to disagree."

Martin decides what is and is not happening in the story.

If you want to write your own story, go ahead. I hope any fans you get don't tell you what you meant by each scene.