Dofs Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Ok, a few days later, and rereading the book scene, my thoughts changed quite a bit. To me, that scene in the book is an assault too. It's not that Cersei suddenly "gets into it," it's Jaime throwing himself at her despite her protests. If she hadn't "gotten into it," I saw nothing to indicate he would've stopped, and the scene was from his POV and thus skewed. I think it's easier to overlook Jaime's lesser traits because he's so charismatic and does some dashing things. Yes, in both mediums he helps prevent Brienne's rape, and he was disgusted by Rhaella's treatment, but Jaime can be a hypocrite just like a lot of other characters. So while the show was more brutal about it, I don't think it was that different besides the timing/impetus. The scene can be seen that he wouldn't have stopped only if you just read this particular scene without the context of the books at all. You may think that he wouldn't have stopped but there is absolutely nothing in the book that can prove it. On the other hand we have Jaime being one of the most anti-rape characters in the book and also him being an absolutely fierce protector of Cersei who would go out of his way to please and protect her. You may say that he can be a hypocrite, but then we should see it constantly through his POV chapters. And he has a lot of POV chapters. And hypocrisy is definitely not something Jaime's chapters are famous for. Not to mention that it was physically impossible for Jaime to rape Cersei. And even to just have sex with her without her help. He had difficulties to take a piss, not to mention rape someone. That's why she guided him into her, he would not be able to do it himself ( and I wonder how he managed to do it in the show as well). In the end, Jaime is not a real person but a character from George R.R. Martin's head. And he is the one who makes the rules and shapes the characters' personalities and their actions. GRRM has already told that the scene in the book was not rape. He has established Jaime's personality and his stance about rape and if he wanted to show that Jaime is a hypocrite and is capable of rape himself, he would have hinted at it and explored it. Instead, Martin has made it Jaime's last sex with Cersei, with Jaime refusing her advances later a couple of times, his last sex to date at all, and also made him beheading rapists in his own army. If Cersei started to seriously resist Jaime in the sept, Jaime would have stopped because that would have been in character with what Martin has written and established. GRRM would just not have made Jaime continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alc0r Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 This is exactly how it will play out. It's clear when the director and cast members think they shot a scene that wasn't a rape...then, that no "rape" is going to be addressed in any future episodes. So, it will be some serious weirdness for the TV audience, who will be wondering about the after effects, only to find there won't be any. LOL. It was a serious mistake by the show, I don't see how that can be denied and is going to cause criticism down the line. It doesn't matter whether it was rape or not, there won't be any after effects either way. I just don't see this as being such a big deal for Cersei, she's already too jaded for that and sex is just a means to an end for her anyway. She just felt that the place wasn't right next to their son's body, but I doubt just that fact is enough for her to give this little event any more attention in the future. It's just another part of their screwed up relationship. Just because the sex is forced doesn't mean that the 'victim' is automatically traumatized by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 <snip> Rape is forced or coerced sex. To paraphrase another poster from the locked thread, "it seems to me a dangerous place that when I say “no” and a man still undresses me, puts his hand between my legs, even if I continue punching him in the chest as a sign of rejection, and he doesn’t once “hear it” or even consider it as him starting to rape me, because he thinks I would eventually agree." It's sexual assault. Secondly, no. GRRM does NOT get to tell us what consensual sex looks like. He gets to tell us if the characters he's created view it as consensual sex; he gets to tell us how such an occurrence would be dealt with in Westeros; but he is not the arbiter on what is and isn't rape. Fortunately, this isn't what GRRM was saying! He did say that Cersei was more on-board, but that's his critique on the nature of their relationship, not his critique on how our society should view rape. Look at the show! Graves said it "turns consensual," when it's clearly a depiction of sexual assault. That's why everyone was so upset; you can't show us a scene ending with Cersei's objections and sobs as Jaime thrusts and declares "I don't care," and then tell us it was consensual...it wasn't. To paraphrase myself from earlier: I'm not trying to bastardize Martin's work or force my views onto his characters; I am trying to explain the way in which the dynamic between Book!Jaime and Book!Cersei is not drastically different from the show's portrayal, given that both showcase a troubled relationship punctuated by acts of violence and assault.I agree that Book!Cersei views the sept scene as consensual. I'm actually not sure how Show!Cersei will view what transpired, and frankly we're unlikely to ever get clarity on this, as we don't have the benefits of her thoughts through the medium of TV. For me, Jaime's actions are in line with his characterization in both cases. I do not, however, find either scene to be one without issues of consent. Even within Westerosi standards, I maintain that there would be women in this world who would view the encounter as forced sex. I'm sorry if this paints Jaime in a darker shade of grey than you're comfortable with, but I'm saying it is fallacious to cry "character assassination" for Show!Jaime when both the book and show scenes are in line with his actions and the nature of his relationship with Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iknownothingjonsnow Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 If you can't tell it's a joke then I'm a little worried for you. It's making a comment on the scene as well as the overreaction to the scene. In his defense, terming something a 'joke' implies that it's actually going to be funny, so his confusion is pretty understandable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveyJoe Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 The title of the image is "How the Jaime/Cersei GOT scene should have gone." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Rape is forced or coerced sex. To paraphrase another poster from the locked thread, "it seems to me a dangerous place that when I say “no” and a man still undresses me, puts his hand between my legs, even if I continue punching him in the chest as a sign of rejection, and he doesn’t once “hear it” or even consider it as him starting to rape me, because he thinks I would eventually agree." It's sexual assault. Secondly, no. GRRM does NOT get to tell us what consensual sex looks like. He gets to tell us if the characters he's created view it as consensual sex; he gets to tell us how such an occurrence would be dealt with in Westeros; but he is not the arbiter on what is and isn't rape. Fortunately, this isn't what GRRM was saying! He did say that Cersei was more on-board, but that's his critique on the nature of their relationship, not his critique on how our society should view rape. Look at the show! Graves said it "turns consensual," when it's clearly a depiction of sexual assault. That's why everyone was so upset; you can't show us a scene ending with Cersei's objections and sobs as Jaime thrusts and declares "I don't care," and then tell us it was consensual...it wasn't. To paraphrase myself from earlier: Surely, GRRM is not someone who tells us what is and what is not rape. I do believe thought though that if both participants of the intercourse don't even think about rape, the rape did not happen. Because rape by definition has to be punishable. The word itself means a type of a crime and for it a person has to go to jail. But if there was a forced sex in a way that to punish someone for it is ridiculous, it should not be considered rape. Going back to the White Tower incident, Cersei forced herself on Jaime and started to sexually assault him while he was saying 'no'. Going by your logic, that fact that they didn't even have intercourse does not even matter. Because if Jaime would have agreed in the end to have sex, he then would have been raped. Therefore, what Cersei was doing is punishable. And that's ridiculous. Same thing about the example I had given in this thread before - when a husband is watching a football game and his wife starts to force herself on him. His says 'no, I want want to finish the game' but his wife doesn't stop. The husband then says 'screw the game' and has sex with her. By your logic, the husband has just been raped. And if this was rape, the wife has to go to prison. And that's ridiculous. 'No means no' is a good rule to prevent actual rape but every case has to judged separately with considering every aspect of it. If you go word by word of it, you may just send every couple to prison. In the show I agree it was rape. I am not talking about the show, I am talking about the books entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alc0r Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Unlike many here I don't find it that hard to rhyme Jaime's anti-rape stance where Brienne is concerned with his behavior towards Cersei in this episode. I can see how in Jaime's mind he wasn't actually trying to hurt Cersei, he just wanted her so badly and didn't want to be ignored by her any longer. Had Cersei resisted a little bit harder I don't think he would have continued, although this is just speculation on my part. But that would be in line with his character imo. In the case of Brienne she would be brutally raped by a bunch of strangers and I think the level of violation is a whole lot higher here. Brienne would definitely not have come out of that situation unscarred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 About Cersei's resisting, Jaime says she was feebly punching his chest. Yeah, it can be said that it was Jaime's biased POV and so on. But really, he was missing his right hand, with his left he could hardly do anything, even taking a piss was a big problem for him. If Cersei was actually seriously resisting, would it really be hard for her to get free from him? He lifted her on the altar. How he would have done it with just his left hand, if Cersei was seriously resisting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 About Cersei's resisting, Jaime says she was feebly punching his chest. Yeah, it can be said that it was Jaime's biased POV and so on. But really, he was missing his right hand, with his left he could hardly do anything, even taking a piss was a big problem for him. If Cersei was actually seriously resisting, would it really be hard for her to get free from him? He lifted her on the altar. How he would have done it with just his left hand, if Cersei was seriously resisting? What about the fact that in the book they go straight away into a conversation about him wanting to go public and her telling him no...an entirely normal conversation between two people in a secret relationship...no sense that Cersei has been forced into anything. So, I still find it surprising and shocking that anyone can read the WHOLE passage in the book and come away with the idea that she didn't consent. The show, while they may think that some barely perceptible movements she makes equals consent, but people watching can't and didn't pick them up, in fact, it actually looked worse to me on the rewatch because they end the segment with her crying and looking like she's trying to get away from him still. Again, Very different from the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alc0r Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 What about the fact that in the book they go straight away into a conversation about him wanting to go public and her telling him no...an entirely normal conversation between two people in a secret relationship...no sense that Cersei has been forced into anything. So, I still find it surprising and shocking that anyone can read the WHOLE passage in the book and come away with the idea that she didn't consent. In the book Jaime clearly forces himself on Cersei as well, but the difference is that Cersei at some point just let's go and gets into it. So you could say she didn't consent at first, and for some that's enough to call it rape. Either way it's still a violation and aggressive move on Jaime's part even though she retracts her objection later and just decides to go with it. I don't see why they couldn't have a normal conversation after this, no matter whether she technically gave consent or not. Even in the show I could see them having a perfectly normal conversation afterwards, maybe she gets into it there later on as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet of Patch Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 This thread seems to be degenerating into an argument about semantics. I think most people are in agreement that what the show depicts (between the two of them) is worse than what the book depicts (between the two of them), and that even in the books, Jaime forces himself on Cersei. Whether you call it rape or not, Jaime's actions are very similar between the two mediums, but we never get Cersei's consent on the show, which makes it a much harsher scene. Rape is forced or coerced sex. This, however, is the definition of rape. Just so everybody is clear. Because it seems like not everybody is clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konradsmith Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 You all realize that Jaime has at least four scenes next episode? And pretty much all of them will cast him in a sympathetic/redemptive light? This includes a scene with Cersei which will probably shed light on what happened between them. So its not so much RIP show Jaime as RIP you guys fucking complaining. And please stop insulting Alex Graves's character because he didn't take the same gender studies courses as you guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet of Patch Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 And please stop insulting Alex Graves's character because he didn't take the same gender studies courses as you guys. Think it's more calling him out on a bonehead quote than insulting his character. Seriously, it shouldn't take a gender studies course to see that there's no consent in that scene. Agree with the first bit though. This will all be over on Sunday... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konradsmith Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 If this backlash means that Alex Graves won't come back to the show I'll blame you guys. I'm not alone in thinking that he's the best director that the show has ever had and some of you have come quite close to defaming him. As for my gender studies comment I'm talking about the stringency that some of you think he should have to have when discussing a scene he directed. Not everyone knows what words and phrases have been blacklisted by bloggers and academia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MsLibby Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Has D&D ever spoken up about this? Graves sure as hell missed the mark on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet of Patch Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 If this backlash means that Alex Graves won't come back to the show I'll blame you guys. I'm not alone in thinking he's the best director that the show has ever had and some of you have come quite close to defaming him. As for my gender studies comment I'm talking about the stringency that some of you think he should have to have when discussing a scene he directed. Not everyone knows what words and phrases have been blacklisted by bloggers and academia. Again, agree with the first bit...(kinda)...Graves is a fantastic director, and people arguing otherwise are wrong to not be able to see past this fuck up. But it was a fuck up, and one concerning a hot button issue (which may be emphasized by academia, but what's wrong with that?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konradsmith Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 ^Well, we don't know it was a fuck-up yet because the season isn't over yet. I guess how Jaime and Cersei act around each next episode will determine what it's effect was on the story. As for what we consider hot-button issues and what we don't, the show portrays many different horrible things and never with this kind of fiery, politicised response. I hope that child-murder and wartime slaughter concern people, but none seem to elicit the same fervor as the "r" word. But really, if I want the outrage to calm down I shouldn't even be posting on this thread in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MsLibby Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Konrad Ran posted in the other thread that he had seen a copy of the Shooting script that had the scene clearly as a back and forth between the two. That is not what Graves shot or edited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveyJoe Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Yet Benioff said Jaime was forcing himself on Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konradsmith Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Are you referring to the fake satirical script that King Tommen posted, MsLibby? If not then link me Ran saying that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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