Small questions v.10079

[HexMachina]

Aerys didn't believe that, however (and it wasn't necessarily true, either.) Aerys believed Rhaegar was organizing the High Lords to set up a Great Council and depose him...which would have been an excellent idea.

Still, it cant be argued that Rhaegar was nowhere to be found.

Also, I dont understand the claim that Hand = Heir in the Dunk and Egg novellas. Baelor is the only Hand who was also the Heir, and that could easily be because he was competent. Aerys I made Bloodraven the Hand, and he was not the heir.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Aerys didn't believe that, however (and it wasn't necessarily true, either.) Aerys believed Rhaegar was organizing the High Lords to set up a Great Council and depose him...which would have been an excellent idea.

The fact that it would have been a wonderful idea aside..

Rhaegar was given the army of the Targaryens. The war was against Rhaegar as much as against Aerys, and both of them knew that. For as long as the war raged on, Rhaegar and Aerys were on the same side.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Still, it cant be argued that Rhaegar was nowhere to be found.

Also, I dont understand the claim that Hand = Heir in the Dunk and Egg novellas. Baelor is the only Hand who was also the Heir, and that could easily be because he was competent. Aerys I made Bloodraven the Hand, and he was not the heir.

Exactly. :)

[Universal Sword Donor]

I think that Lord Paramount is the title give to the leader of the ruling house of a particular region, except Dorne. I don't reall anyone other than LF being referred to as Lord Paramount though.

That's the way it's used on the forums. The only Lord Paramount we've seen in any of the books or novellas is the LP of the Riverlands.

Yeah, you're technically correct. It's just easier to apply the term generally. Especially because some of the people we call Lords Paramount aren't wardens of anything. Be interesting to see if the world book uses the term like we fans do or not.

Fair enough. Kind of what I was thinking, but I wanted to know if there was any other reasoning behind it.

[Consigliere]

Still, it cant be argued that Rhaegar was nowhere to be found.

Also, I dont understand the claim that Hand = Heir in the Dunk and Egg novellas. Baelor is the only Hand who was also the Heir, and that could easily be because he was competent. Aerys I made Bloodraven the Hand, and he was not the heir.

I agree. Heir =/= Hand. In saying that the quote from TSS is ambiguous and can be read both ways; that Valarr was Hand or some unnamed person.

[HexMachina]

I agree. Heir =/= Hand. In saying that the quote from TSS is ambiguous and can be read both ways; that Valarr was Hand or some unnamed person.

I was responding to Rill Redthorn :)

[TheCrannogDweller]

I think that Lord Paramount is the title give to the leader of the ruling house of a particular region, except Dorne. I don't reall anyone other than LF being referred to as Lord Paramount though.

I looked at the first and last Tully lords (Edmyn and Hoster) and it seems that the title Lord Paramount was created for Littlefinger.

As far as Daeron II's last Hand goes - we have a fair amount of gaps between the known people who have held that office. One thing is certain - Bloodraven was only raised to the post by Aerys, so it can't be him.

[Rill Redthorn]

I agree. Heir =/= Hand. In saying that the quote from TSS is ambiguous and can be read both ways; that Valarr was Hand or some unnamed person.

The Heir is often the Hand if he is of age and competent -- Viserys I served as Hand to his brother Baelor the Blessed for many years, for example. It doesn't always go that way but it's quite common for the Heir to serve as Hand because it's a good sort of Junior King or King-in-Training position.

Bloodraven probably served as Aerys I's Hand because Aerys had no children and Maekar was sulky and short-tempered and resented his brother, which wouldn't have made for a good working relationship.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The Heir is often the Hand if he is of age and competent -- Viserys I served as Hand to his brother Baelor the Blessed for many years, for example. It doesn't always go that way but it's quite common for the Heir to serve as Hand because it's a good sort of Junior King or King-in-Training position.

Bloodraven probably served as Aerys I's Hand because Aerys had no children and Maekar was sulky and short-tempered and resented his brother, which wouldn't have made for a good working relationship.

Viserys I was the great-grandfather of Baelor the Blessed (through daughter Rhaenyra and grandson Aegon III). Viserys II was the uncle of Baelor, and Baelor's Hand.

Viserys seems to have become Hand of Aegon after the Regent wars, but whether that happened after Aegon reached manhood (which would mean that Viserys, the younger of the two, had not yet reached manhood), or later, is still unknown.

[HexMachina]

^speaking of the Regent Wars.

I read a post on the forums, but it was from pre-tPatQ I think (i was on my phone at the time and didnt look at the date). It said that a Manderly (was on of the Regents, is that still canon?

[Consigliere]

I looked at the first and last Tully lords (Edmyn and Hoster) and it seems that the title Lord Paramount was created for Littlefinger.

Yeah. It looks that way. I thought there may be a Lord Paramount of the Stormlands but a search of the text brought up no mention.

The Heir is often the Hand if he is of age and competent -- Viserys I served as Hand to his brother Baelor the Blessed for many years, for example. It doesn't always go that way but it's quite common for the Heir to serve as Hand because it's a good sort of Junior King or King-in-Training position.

Bloodraven probably served as Aerys I's Hand because Aerys had no children and Maekar was sulky and short-tempered and resented his brother, which wouldn't have made for a good working relationship.

As CrannogDweller noted, there are alot of gaps wrt the people who have held that office so we don't have enough info to make that claim.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

^speaking of the Regent Wars.

I read a post on the forums, but it was from pre-tPatQ I think (i was on my phone at the time and didnt look at the date). It said that a Manderly (was on of the Regents, is that still canon?

Semi-canon for now. A Manderly Regent and former Hand of the King does appear in the Dance of the Dragons-updated MUSH family trees, so it does seem like a Manderly was a Regent at one point.

But until it appeared in the Worldbook, or a history piece, or one of the other books, I'd still call it semi-canon. :)

[Rill Redthorn]

Viserys I was the great-grandfather of Baelor the Blessed (through daughter Rhaenyra and grandson Aegon III). Viserys II was the uncle of Baelor, and Baelor's Hand.

Viserys seems to have become Hand of Aegon after the Regent wars, but whether that happened after Aegon reached manhood (which would mean that Viserys, the younger of the two, had not yet reached manhood), or later, is still unknown.

Yeah, I meant Viserys II, that was a typo. I know he wasn't Baelor's son (Baelor didn't have kids) but he was Baelor's Heir, and he served as Hand, and he succeeded Baelor. I'm arguing for the commonality of "Heir serves at Hand and moves up into King position when King dies." I definitely got the impression reading the D&E stories that this was more normal than not for the Targaryens.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Yeah, I meant Viserys II, that was a typo. I know he wasn't Baelor's son (Baelor didn't have kids) but he was Baelor's Heir, and he served as Hand, and he succeeded Baelor. I'm arguing for the commonality of "Heir serves at Hand and moves up into King position when King dies." I definitely got the impression reading the D&E stories that this was more normal than not for the Targaryens.

Viserys was Baelor's Hand for 10 years - but he probably served twice as long under his predecessors. And he wasn't really expected to inherit in those first 20 years - Aegon had 2 able-bodied sons, both of whom were married.

My point is, Viserys probably served Baelor because he was experienced at the job, not because he was next in line. In fact, except for Baelor Breakspear, I can't think of a single other instance where the heir served as Hand.

The traditional right-of-passage post, given to the Crown Prince was the Lordship over Dragonstone.

Yeah. It looks that way. I thought there may be a Lord Paramount of the Stormlands but a search of the text brought up no mention.

The Baratheons seem to be on the poorest end of the title spectrum - they have only one (Lords of SE), while the Tyrells on the other end have 4.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yeah, I meant Viserys II, that was a typo. I know he wasn't Baelor's son (Baelor didn't have kids) but he was Baelor's Heir, and he served as Hand, and he succeeded Baelor. I'm arguing for the commonality of "Heir serves at Hand and moves up into King position when King dies." I definitely got the impression reading the D&E stories that this was more normal than not for the Targaryens.

Viserys had been the Hand of his brother Aegon III and nephew Daeron I as well, and he wasn't the heir of either one of them (though I admit, we don't know if Viserys became Hand before Daerons birth or after).

[Nozlym]

Was wondering what happened to Aegon ll dragon Sunfyre in TPATQ.

Forgive me if its already been talked about in the 100 and so pages for the proper thread, couldnt bother looking through them all.

[Rill Redthorn]

From the Wiki:

Sunfyre killed Grey Ghost while returning to Dragonstone, either for Aegon or because it is the place of his birth. The fight left him with only one eye and wounds along his back, belly, and neck.

Sunfyre devoured Moondancer in the Fall of Dragonstone, but wounds he took from the fight left him flightless for the rest of his life. He remained in the yard of Dragonstone where he fell, where he was fed sheep by the garrison. Sunfyre ate Rhaenyra Targaryen at the bidding of Aegon II towards the end of the civil war. He eventually died from his wounds on the 9th day of the 12th moon, 130AC, Aegon wept upon Sunfyres death.

[Nozlym]

sorry should of been more specific, what i meant was how did he get to dragonstone when he couldn't fly. i know he could of walked and then swam but in the book it says they found no footprints and was just left as a mystery. he had only one wing so i figured he couldn't fly.

[Lost Melnibonean]

The fact that it would have been a wonderful idea aside..

Rhaegar was given the army of the Targaryens. The war was against Rhaegar as much as against Aerys, and both of them knew that. For as long as the war raged on, Rhaegar and Aerys were on the same side.

Was he Protector of the Realm? I seem to think he was...

[Rill Redthorn]

sorry should of been more specific, what i meant was how did he get to dragonstone when he couldn't fly. i know he could of walked and then swam but in the book it says they found no footprints and was just left as a mystery. he had only one wing so i figured he couldn't fly.

The wiki indicates that although his wing was damaged in an earlier fight, Sunfyre was still able to fly, but awkwardly. So he made it out to Dragonstone, but got into another fight there that left him earthbound with another set of serious injuries.