R+L=J v.80

[Rikard Stark]

why do we need 80 threads of this! it is known that R+L=J,

the only question is weather it was consensual.

[Ygrain]

why do we need 80 threads of this! it is known that R+L=J,

the only question is weather it was consensual.

Because new people keep coming and coming and they want to discuss it, as well.

And sorry but the question is not consensuality, there are enough hints it was, but whether Jon was legitimate (and for some, myself included, that is not really a question any more).

[MtnLion]

Lyanna abducted Rhaegar and forced him, at sword point, to marry her.

[Deadwood]

Howland Reed. Meera Reed's father. She of the weaponry unique to her people. It ain't much of a stretch to suppose Howland is skilled in the same weapons.

Loras Tyrrell defeated the Mountain at the Tourney of the Hand by resorting to a trick.

Loras Tyrell was in turn defeated by Brienne at Renly's tourney by trickery.

Well that's also possible.

I like both versions. I think Howland's fighting prowess would probably be more reliant on his sneaky mudman style of fighting.

[The guy from the Vale]

In all seriousness, why are we so sure that didn't happen? Except for the "swordpoint" part of course, otherwise I don't see her surviving the Dawn...

[FrozenFire3]

Lyanna abducted Rhaegar,a nd forced him, at sword point to marry her.

Not so far off the mark imho ;)

Because new people keep coming and coming and they want to discuss it, as well.

And sorry but the question is not consensuality, there are enough hints it was, but whether Jon was legitimate (and for some, myself included, that is not really a question any more).

Also we take a perverse delight in all the drama that will ensue ;) Not to mention our endless treasure hunt for hints&clues on both books and

tv series

[Ser Leftwich]

Lyanna abducted Rhaegar and forced him, at sword point, to marry her.

Lyanna and Ashara kidnapped Rhaegar, with Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent.

L and A figured they would convince Rhaegar to force Robert to marry Ashara instead of Lyanna, also Robert had already been with Ashara at the ToH. Ashara "looked to" (Ned) Stark because she confronted Robert about it, but he denied it. Robert had been too drunk to remember which woman he had been with. Robert thought he had been with Lyanna.

That way, Lyanna could marry Rhaegar.

(Is there an SARCASM emoticon yet?)

[MtnLion]

(Is there an SARCASM emoticon yet?)

No, you need to use the proper font.

[The guy from the Vale]

Lyanna and Ashara kidnapped Rhaegar, with Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent.

L and A figured they would convince Rhaegar to force Robert to marry Ashara instead of Lyanna, also Robert had already been with Ashara at the ToH. Ashara "looked to" (Ned) Stark because she confronted Robert about it, but he denied it. Robert had been too drunk to remember which woman he had been with. Robert thought he had been with Lyanna.

That way, Lyanna could marry Rhaegar.

(Is there an SARCASM emoticon yet?)

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

I'd be so delighted if things turned out to have been that way. The sheer amount of exploding Rhaegar hater heads when it turns out he had no choice...

On a slightly more serious note, I agree the Ashara-Robert option has been getting way too little attention- we'd know about another of Bob's bastards that way.

[MtnLion]

In all seriousness, why are we so sure that didn't happen? Except for the "swordpoint" part of course, otherwise I don't see her surviving the Dawn...

I actually find it almost believable. Lyanna seems to have been desperate to avoid her betrothal. Marriage to the crown prince seems like a viable alternative.

[The guy from the Vale]

Precisely. She needs somebody powerful enough to resist her father's wishes. Rhaegar was just about the most powerful bachelor available - and Rickard could hardly refuse a match with the crown prince.

[MtnLion]

On a slightly more serious note, I agree the Ashara-Robert option has been getting way too little attention- we'd know about another of Bob's bastards that way.

While I am not firmly opposed to this idea, there are two things that I think preclude it. First, why would Ashara not go to the king if Robert had dishonored her, why Stark? Second, I believe that Ashara had a Targaryen featured child. ;) (That last is my bit of cracked pottery. ETA: I am somewhat attached to it, because the first time I posted it, it touched a nerve, somewhere, with someone.)

[starklinson]

Try telling this to a guy who thinks Dany is evil but Robert (yes Baratheon) and Arya are good.

Well, one of the primary asoiaf themes is grey-ness in characters. One could argue that Dany is good or bad, or that Robert or Arya are good or bad. But there's evidence that proves both.

[Ser Leftwich]

While I am not firmly opposed to this idea, there are two things that I think preclude it. First, why would Ashara not go to the king if Robert had dishonored her, why Stark?

Since Ashara had been at court in KL for at least a little while and also may have had some inside information from her brother on the KG, Ashara might have thought it a safer approach to ask Robert's closest friend, instead of the temperamental/insane king Aerys.

And, if all this happened during the ToJ, Ashara might have been trying to prevent gossip, telling Ned that it was her and not Lyanna that Robert had been with.

Was Robert really in love with Ashara, but didn't even know it?

(Is it me or is this sounding more and more sane/possible?!?!)

[starklinson]

Why is it called Robert's Rebellion? Was it named thus after Robert had been crowned? After all, didn't the Starks have a bigger grievance against the king? Brandon and Rickard went to Aerys in order to lodge as complaint against Rhaegar not to start a war. The war presumably began because of their murder not because of Lyanna's alleged abduction. So why did Robert become the head of the Rebellion? And did he use the Stark murders as a convenient excuse to start a war because of his anger focused solely on punishing Rhaegar?

I think it was Robert who initially revolted. The Starks attempted to get Lyanna back peacefully and when that failed and Rickard and Brandon were killed, Ned and Robert joined forces in the Rebellion. I believe it's called Robert's Rebellion because he was crowned. Some call it the 'War of the Usurper' so it definitely has to do with power.

[MtnLion]

I think it was Robert who initially revolted. The Starks attempted to get Lyanna back peacefully and when that failed and Rickard and Brandon were killed, Ned and Robert joined forces in the Rebellion. I believe it's called Robert's Rebellion because he was crowned. Some call it the 'War of the Usurper' so it definitely has to do with power.

It is called Robert's Rebellion because the rebels won and placed Robert on the throne. Between the rebel leaders; Jon Aryn, Robert Baratheon, and Eddard Stark; they chose Robert as being the most rightful candidate. Robert's grandmother had been a Taragryen. The rebellion started because King Aerys demanded the heads of Robert and Ned from Jon Aryn. That is when Jon Aryn raised his banners, and Ned returned to Winterfell to raise his. Robert assisted Jon Aryn with some loyalist fights before returning to Storm's End to raise his banners.

No other reason is given for the rebellion, though the random execution of so many must have been an affront to the high lords of the kingdom, none seemed to object.

[Deadwood]

After reading the Southron ambitions hypothesis, it certainly helps place the rebellion in a context.

Reminds me of History.

[MtnLion]

After reading the Southron ambitions hypothesis, it certainly helps place the rebellion in a context.

Reminds me of History.

Pardon, but it seems to me that Rickard is supposed to have southron ambitions urged by his maester. However, the rebellion is started by Jon Aryn, Ned, and Robert in the Eyrie (away from that maester) after Rickard's death, but only because they are disobeying a command of the king.

This is all off topic, here, anyway.

[BastardlyRock]

Not sure if this point has been discussed before or not but it struck me the other day that part of Eddard's sensitivity to the notion of killing Dany upon hearing the news she was pregnant may have been due to his own role in protecting Jon for so many years. It was as if hearing Robert's will to have her murdered confirmed his fears of what should befall Jon had he ever let Robert know the truth.

On a side note - thought I may find some appreciation here for the new bumper sticker...

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag353/smcarter95/ASOIAF/ResizedImage_1399327624231_zps85172034.jpg

[FittleLinger]

Not sure if this point has been discussed before or not but it struck me the other day that part of Eddard's sensitivity to the notion of killing Dany upon hearing the news she was pregnant may have been due to his own role in protecting Jon for so many years. It was as if hearing Robert's will to have her murdered confirmed his fears of what should befall Jon had he ever let Robert know the truth.

On a side note - thought I may find some appreciation here for the new bumper sticker...

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag353/smcarter95/ASOIAF/ResizedImage_1399327624231_zps85172034.jpg

Yeah, I think you're on the right track. His own fears of what could happen were fuelled by Robert's reaction to the gruesome death of the Targaryen children (Aegon and Rhaenys). Robert basically said OK. Ned then proceeded to Jon and this decision, and later - to Dany. The things are related.