R+L=J v.80

[FittleLinger]

So it is possible, but can you prove it indisputably? I mean, it's also possible that Stannis is having an incestuous relationship with his daughter so until you prove otherwise then no.

There are multiple theories about Jon's parentage, what if he is truly a bastard of Eddard Stark's? Can you prove otherwise? If you cannot then it is speculation about something that is possible as opposed to actual fact (for example, it's possible to have five children but that doesn't mean you will or have).

What? Are we talking flying spaghetti monster here? I mean, are we 5? What's the point?

Edit: Ygrain, heh.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So it is possible, but can you prove it indisputably? I mean, it's also possible that Stannis is having an incestuous relationship with his daughter so until you prove otherwise then no.

There are multiple theories about Jon's parentage, what if he is truly a bastard of Eddard Stark's? Can you prove otherwise? If you cannot then it is speculation about something that is possible as opposed to actual fact (for example, it's possible to have five children but that doesn't mean you will or have).

But the difference between R+L=J and the the other possibilities for Jon's parentage, is that the R+L=J thread has provided a strong case, and evidence from the books keeps being found, and thus discussed, here. There is barely anything that points into the directions of Ashara, Wylla, or the fisherwoman, while lots and lots of hints are found for R+L=J.

[SerArthurHeath]

We'll all eventually see anyway

[Ygrain]

What? Are we talking flying spaghetti monster here? I mean, are we 5? What's the point?

Edit: Ygrain, heh.

:P :ninja:

[FittleLinger]

If your strongest argument against a theory is that "it's just a theory", I have news for you.

The same is true if two people simultaneously compare your argument to the flying spaghetti monster.

[FrozenFire3]

So it is possible, but can you prove it indisputably? I mean, it's also possible that Stannis is having an incestuous relationship with his daughter so until you prove otherwise then no.

There are multiple theories about Jon's parentage, what if he is truly a bastard of Eddard Stark's? Can you prove otherwise? If you cannot then it is speculation about something that is possible as opposed to actual fact (for example, it's possible to have five children but that doesn't mean you will or have).

Well, no. We are talking of narrative not RL chances and possibilities. Narrative has a structure made of textual and meta-textual devices. If carefully analyzed, this devices offer hints and intepreation keys on which basing predictions more likely than others.

On Aemon&Jon, I don't believe the text hints at the old Maester being suspicious of Jon's identity. There's a certain affinity though, highlighted by Aemon's attentive focus on Jon. It's evident he is aware that something sets the boy apart. Conversely, on a metatextual level, the parallels with Egg are aplenty, not to mention the recurrent fire/dragon symbolism scattered throughout Jon's POVs. Such a heavy metaphorical load, together with the reader's awareness/suspicion of Jon's true parentage, contributes to give tragic depth to their interactions: so close and yet so far.

As for Jon's physical resemblance to Rhaegar, let's not forget the few passages where certain peculiarities about Jon's build and features get stressed by the author:

Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black.

Not the classic Stark grey. See comparison with Egg's eyes descritpion:

In the dimness of the lamplit cellar they looked black, but in better light their true colour could be seen: deep and dark and purple.

And Rhaegar's eyes:

His eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac.

Also Jon's eye-shape is never described and Areo Hotah's little musing is enlightening:

Her eyes were deep blue pools... and yet somehow they reminded the captain of her father's eyes, though Oberyn's had been as black as night. All of Prince Oberyn's daughters have his viper eyes, Hotah realized suddenly. The color does not matter.

Last but not least, Jon's built:

Jon was slender [...] graceful and quick.

Strange enough, I can't think of one single Stark described as 'graceful'...

[SerArthurHeath]

Arya?

[FrozenFire3]

Arya?

OK, male Stark ;)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Arya?

Arya, who, funnily enough has parallels drawns between her and Jon, but also between her and Lyanna, in their appearance ;)

[SerArthurHeath]

Arya, who, funnily enough has parallels drawns between her and Jon, but also between her and Lyanna, in their appearance ;)

Really? Silly me, I didn't notice that at all , what a coincidence! ;)

[Britisher]

That is one of the main issues - if Jon was indeed Ned's son, then by whom? There are only two women of his generation on Ned's mind, Catelyn and Lyanna, he never thinks or hints at any other. He was never the boy he was (per Robert), wasn't the one to take his pleasures (his own assessment).

Ashara? How did he get from too shy to even ask for a dance to so bold as to bed her? And if he did bed her at HH, why not marry her, like Robb married Jeyne to get things right? Neither was engaged at that time (per Harwin). And how, when and where would he have met her during the Rebellion, to father Jon on her at the time of the Sack minus 8-9 months? And, since he was already married to Cat, would he have broken his vows like that, knowing that he would be unable to marry the girl he dishonoured?

Wylla? No relationship as it would hardly escape the attention of his men; not a campfollower, for the same reason. Would Ned have had casual sex with some girl he met in some village? Why the secrecy then?

Fisherman's daughter? That was before he married Cat, so why lie about Jon's age and about dishonouring Catelyn, placing Jon's conception after his marriage?

- And that's it. No other woman tied to Lord Eddard, not a single one. We have run out of candidates, and the three above do not fit. It cannot be some mysterious unknown woman to be revealed only at the end of the series, there have to be some clues left for her identity, but there are none.

Really? Ned loved Ashara so perhaps they married in secret and had a child. Eddard did not need to 'father' him to conceive a child and, in-fact, due to the fact he was busy with the rebellion he may have left Ashara for a prolonged time, so long she fell into a depression. I believe her suicide was driven partly by this and the fact her lady died and post-natal depression - and Ser Arthur's death. She was after-all pregnant with a bastard child... Alternatively, Brandon Stark may have had a child with her. She did give birth at the tower...? No other way to say it - but she did, and it was around the time of her death.

Wylla was Jon's wet-nurse, I don't know, but Eddard admits to Robert that it was her. (I believe that Ashara was a Targaryen who did not really die but instead fleed the castle with Ned under the guise of the wet-nurse).

It was near the start of the rebellion, so by the time of birth it would work out? His rebellion was "close to a year" long so Ned would have to conceive the child near the start of it.

[Britisher]

But the difference between R+L=J and the the other possibilities for Jon's parentage, is that the R+L=J thread has provided a strong case, and evidence from the books keeps being found, and thus discussed, here. There is barely anything that points into the directions of Ashara, Wylla, or the fisherwoman, while lots and lots of hints are found for R+L=J.

I totally disagree. R&L is perhaps the most obvious and ridiculous one which people only support because they think it is "cool" and that Jon Snow is really special.

I do not know whether Jon is Ned's but I do not believe Jon is a child of Rhaegar's (he may be a Targaryen - I don't know).

[Emerentiana_Zamora]

This theory is ridiculous - it is a THEORY so why should it be pinned?

Just because Jon is not Catelyn's child doesn't mean he's Lyanna's...

I would ask you if you were my brother, but we aren't British.

I have a "game" I play with my brother. I quote a passage and he tries to explain it away without using R+L=J. Lets see if you do it better than he does.

First quote

Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night,

AGoT Pg.115 paperback edition

Jon's age btw is 14 at the moment.

What lie has he been living?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Really? Ned loved Ashara so perhaps they married in secret and had a child. Eddard did not need to 'father' him to conceive a child and, in-fact, due to the fact he was busy with the rebellion he may have left Ashara for a prolonged time, so long she fell into a depression. I believe her suicide was driven partly by this and the fact her lady died and post-natal depression - and Ser Arthur's death. She was after-all pregnant with a bastard child... Alternatively, Brandon Stark may have had a child with her. She did give birth at the tower...? No other way to say it - but she did, and it was around the time of her death.

Wylla was Jon's wet-nurse, I don't know, but Eddard admits to Robert that it was her. (I believe that Ashara was a Targaryen who did not really die but instead fleed the castle with Ned under the guise of the wet-nurse).

It was near the start of the rebellion, so by the time of birth it would work out? His rebellion was "close to a year" long so Ned would have to conceive the child near the start of it.

Did Ned love Ashara? That isn't stated anywhere. What we know is that Ned, upon seeing Ashara at the Tourney at Harrenhal in 281AC, where they most likely met for the first time ever, was too shy to ask her to dance with him. His brother Brandon had to go talk to her and ask her for him. Only then did they dance together.

The next time Ned and Ashara are mentioned to have met each other, was in 283AC, after Ned was married and the Rebellion was at an end. Ned came to return Dawn to House Dayne, and after that left north.

Questions that arise from your post: Since when is Ashara a Targaryen? Do you have any hints that Ashara was at the Tower?

That Ashara killed herself (or faked her death) with grief as a motif is very probable. She had lost a lover, a brother and a daughter within a year.

The argument against Ned+Ashara: Barristan Selmy talks respectfully about Ned, and, mor importantly, thinks respectfully about Ned. However, when he remembers the Tournament at Harrenhal, he bitterly remembers how "Stark" dishonered Ashara (read: it doesn's state she got pregnant here, but that she was dishonored). Seeing as how Barristan is so very bitter at the memory of "Stark", but absolutely not at the memory of Ned, this seems to suggest that Ned wasn't the Stark Ashara was dishonored by.

I totally disagree. R&L is perhaps the most obvious and ridiculous one which people only support because they think it is "cool" and that Jon Snow is really special.

I do not know whether Jon is Ned's but I do not believe Jon is a child of Rhaegar's (he may be a Targaryen - I don't know).

So you agree that Jon doesn't necessarily have to be Ned's son, and you admit that he might be a Targaryen. If not Rhaegar, then who?

I, for one, am not supporting the theory because I think it's "cool". I also don't think that Jon is "special" in the way that in the end it all has to be about him. I am even taking into account that even though we as the readers will eventually learn Jon's parentage, Jon himself might never truly discover.

I agree with the R+L=J theory because it has an extreme amount of evidence, subtly hidden in the text. And sometime, not so suble. I mean, I noticed it on my first read of Game, and I missed a lot of things on my first read. This one I caught though. This thread and all the previous versions have only added evidence for me.

[Britisher]

Well, no. We are talking of narrative not RL chances and possibilities. Narrative has a structure made of textual and meta-textual devices. If carefully analyzed, this devices offer hints and intepreation keys on which basing predictions more likely than others.

On Aemon&Jon, I don't believe the text hints at the old Maester being suspicious of Jon's identity. There's a certain affinity though, highlighted by Aemon's attentive focus on Jon. It's evident he is aware that something sets the boy apart. Conversely, on a metatextual level, the parallels with Egg are aplenty, not to mention the recurrent fire/dragon symbolism scattered throughout Jon's POVs. Such a heavy metaphorical load, together with the reader's awareness/suspicion of Jon's true parentage, contributes to give tragic depth to their interactions: so close and yet so far.

As for Jon's physical resemblance to Rhaegar, let's not forget the few passages where certain peculiarities about Jon's build and features get stressed by the author:

Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black.

Not the classic Stark grey. See comparison with Egg's eyes descritpion:

In the dimness of the lamplit cellar they looked black, but in better light their true colour could be seen: deep and dark and purple.

And Rhaegar's eyes:

His eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac.

Also Jon's eye-shape is never described and Areo Hotah's little musing is enlightening:

Her eyes were deep blue pools... and yet somehow they reminded the captain of her father's eyes, though Oberyn's had been as black as night. All of Prince Oberyn's daughters have his viper eyes, Hotah realized suddenly. The color does not matter.

Last but not least, Jon's built:

Jon was slender [...] graceful and quick.

Strange enough, I can't think of one single Stark described as 'graceful'...

Is this a joke of some kind? You're just taking Jon's appeal out of context and applying it to Targaryens. Arya and Sansa are described as that as someone else pointed out, and Cat is also called "graceful" (SO SHE MUST BE TARGARYEN!)

Just because you found similar wording doesn't make them related at all - sorry but I think your interpretation of the text is just grotesquely manipulated.

[Britisher]

Did Ned love Ashara? That isn't stated anywhere. What we know is that Ned, upon seeing Ashara at the Tourney at Harrenhal in 281AC, where they most likely met for the first time ever, was too shy to ask her to dance with him. His brother Brandon had to go talk to her and ask her for him. Only then did they dance together.

The next time Ned and Ashara are mentioned to have met each other, was in 283AC, after Ned was married and the Rebellion was at an end. Ned came to return Dawn to House Dayne, and after that left north.

In a Storm of Swords we are told that he supposedly loved her in an Arya chapter.

That doesn't mean anything, they could have still had Jon at HH (as you said they DID dance together).

Questions that arise from your post: Since when is Ashara a Targaryen? Do you have any hints that Ashara was at the Tower?

That Ashara killed herself (or faked her death) with grief as a motif is very probable. She had lost a lover, a brother and a daughter within a year.

It was just an assumption of mine (which I do not want to go into too much detail about please) due to her purple eyes and closeness to the Targaryen's.

The argument against Ned+Ashara: Barristan Selmy talks respectfully about Ned, and, mor importantly, thinks respectfully about Ned. However, when he remembers the Tournament at Harrenhal, he bitterly remembers how "Stark" dishonered Ashara (read: it doesn's state she got pregnant here, but that she was dishonored). Seeing as how Barristan is so very bitter at the memory of "Stark", but absolutely not at the memory of Ned, this seems to suggest that Ned wasn't the Stark Ashara was dishonored by.

That's why I also suggested Brandon Stark. She was pregnant before she killed herself... Why did Eddard return home with Jon soon after this, and also, he brought Wylla who was a wetnurse at Starfall (where Ashara is from).

So you agree that Jon doesn't necessarily have to be Ned's son, and you admit that he might be a Targaryen. If not Rhaegar, then who?

I, for one, am not supporting the theory because I think it's "cool". I also don't think that Jon is "special" in the way that in the end it all has to be about him. I am even taking into account that even though we as the readers will eventually learn Jon's parentage, Jon himself might never truly discover.

I agree with the R+L=J theory because it has an extreme amount of evidence, subtly hidden in the text. And sometime, not so suble. I mean, I noticed it on my first read of Game. This thread and all the previous versions have only added evidence for me.

I was referring to Ashara primarily.

[Ygrain]

Really? Ned loved Ashara so perhaps they married in secret and had a child. Eddard did not need to 'father' him to conceive a child and, in-fact, due to the fact he was busy with the rebellion he may have left Ashara for a prolonged time, so long she fell into a depression. I believe her suicide was driven partly by this and the fact her lady died and post-natal depression - and Ser Arthur's death. She was after-all pregnant with a bastard child... Alternatively, Brandon Stark may have had a child with her. She did give birth at the tower...? No other way to say it - but she did, and it was around the time of her death.

Wylla was Jon's wet-nurse, I don't know, but Eddard admits to Robert that it was her. (I believe that Ashara was a Targaryen who did not really die but instead fleed the castle with Ned under the guise of the wet-nurse).

It was near the start of the rebellion, so by the time of birth it would work out? His rebellion was "close to a year" long so Ned would have to conceive the child near the start of it.

To father a child = to conceive a child.

When was this supposed marriage to Ashara take place, before or after the marriage to Catelyn? Does Eddard strike you as the bigamist type?

And, at the beginning of the Rebellion, he was in the Vale, then travelled North to gather his banners, then marched back and got married to Cat. When and where do you propose he had sex with Ashara?

Brandon may have had a child with Ashara but the child wasn't Jon, Brandon was a couple of months dead when Jon was conceived.

Yeah, Ned entrusted Robert with a super dangerous secret of his bastard's identity being some commonborn Wylla. Westeros would have been undone, had Cat learned.

I totally disagree. R&L is perhaps the most obvious and ridiculous one which people only support because they think it is "cool" and that Jon Snow is really special.

I do not know whether Jon is Ned's but I do not believe Jon is a child of Rhaegar's (he may be a Targaryen - I don't know).

:bs:

And let met tell you that ascribing motives to people you know nothing about is extremely rude.

Is this a joke of some kind? You're just taking Jon's appeal out of context and applying it to Targaryens. Arya and Sansa are described as that as someone else pointed out, and Cat is also called "graceful" (SO SHE MUST BE TARGARYEN!)

Just because you found similar wording doesn't make them related at all - sorry but I think your interpretation of the text is just grotesquely manipulated.

SImilar wording usually has a reason.

In a Storm of Swords we are told that he supposedly loved her in an Arya chapter.

That doesn't mean anything, they could have still had Jon?

It was just an assumption of mine (which I do not want to go into too much detail about please) due to her purple eyes and closeness to the Targaryen's.

That's why I also suggested Brandon Stark. She was pregnant before she killed herself... Why did Eddard return home with Jon soon after this, and also, he brought Wylla who was a wetnurse at Starfall (where Ashara is from).

I was referring to Ashara primarily.

No, we are not told that Ned loved Ashara. We are told that there was gossip about them, and that Harwin thinks it is insubstantiated.

The Daynes are not related to the Targaryens.

[Britisher]

To father a child = to conceive a child.

When was this supposed marriage to Ashara take place, before or after the marriage to Catelyn? Does Eddard strike you as the bigamist type?

And, at the beginning of the Rebellion, he was in the Vale, then travelled North to gather his banners, then marched back and got married to Cat. When and where do you propose he had sex with Ashara?

Brandon may have had a child with Ashara but the child wasn't Jon, Brandon was a couple of months dead when Jon was conceived.

Yeah, Ned entrusted Robert with a super dangerous secret of his bastard's identity being some commonborn Wylla. Westeros would have been undone, had Cat learned.

Marriage/planned marriage = Harrenhal, Jon being conceived = Harrenhal?

She was PREGNANT up until the very very end of the rebellion... (Near her suicide I think).

SImilar wording usually has a reason.

No, we are not told that Ned loved Ashara. We are told that there was gossip about them, and that Harwin thinks it is insubstantiated.

The Daynes are not related to the Targaryens.

1. I disagree, especially when they are very minor.

2. We are told about humours of how he loved her.

3. That's my own theory, I told you not to reply ? (Perhaps she wasn't a Dayne).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Marriage/planned marriage = Harrenhal, Jon being conceived = Harrenhal?

She was PREGNANT up until the very very end of the rebellion... (Near her suicide I think).

1. I disagree, especially when they are very minor.

2. We are told about humours of how he loved her.

3. That's my own theory, I told you not to reply ? (Perhaps she wasn't a Dayne).

So Ashara was pregnant for 2 years?

And she's called Ashara Dayne, sister to Ser Arthur Dayne, sister to Lady Allyria Dayne, aunt to Ned Dayne.

Sounds like a Dayne to me. :)

[Winterfell's Revenge]

So it is possible, but can you prove it indisputably? I mean, it's also possible that Stannis is having an incestuous relationship with his daughter so until you prove otherwise then no.

There are multiple theories about Jon's parentage, what if he is truly a bastard of Eddard Stark's? Can you prove otherwise? If you cannot then it is speculation about something that is possible as opposed to actual fact (for example, it's possible to have five children but that doesn't mean you will or have).

This whole entire fucking forum is speculation on various things and THIS is a fucking problem? Are you rolling around to every single speculatory thread asking for indisputable proof? And if speculation isn't something you like, there is no need for you to attempt to crash the party.