Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Perhaps his blindness resulted in an enhanced sense of smell. Maybe, given enough time, he would have smelled the Targaryen on Jon. :P O my god, that's genius! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleiz Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Hmmm... on the topic of Aemon recognising any of Jon's Targaryen qualities, is it weird I have a head cannon that Jon inherited Egg's smile? It mainly comes from this quote in AGOT:- Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honour compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms ... or the memory of a brothers smile? Wind and words. Wind and Words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy. Considering the number of parallels Aemon already seems to draw between Jon and Egg, I couldn't shake the feeling of this being another one... if only he had the sight to see it. Or not... maybe Jon only got the Targaryen nose :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Does it matter that GRRM always talks about finding out who the mother is? If Ned is really the father we have a Stark but on the other side.If GRRM starting talking about finding out who Jon's father is, it would give the game away a little bit, surely?None so blind as those who won't see. Just because some people want Jon to be Ned's son in blood not just upbringing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Ned also knew that the Wall was one of two places that would remove the significance of Jon's blood and protect even more. Ned's priority is clearly Jon's safety, and DEFINITELY not ensuring a Targ heir is still valid, in this way he keeps a promise to Lyanna, helped Jon but also stops Jon being a threat to Robert's crown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 The hint to Jon's mother is, amongst other things, this:With the emphasis on not knowing who Jon's mother is, and about Jon looking like Arya, and Arya looking like Lyanna, the hint here is that Jon looks like Lyanna. That doesn´t automatically mean that Arya has to be Lyanna´s daughter. And you might quote the wiki, but why not look up the quotes in the books? So Ned, who knew both Lyanna and Arya, tells Arya how much she looks like Lyanna.On to the next: And here we see that Arya and Jon look alike. Conclusion: Jon looks like Lyanna. It is wrong to assume with this information that Arya has to be Lyanna's daughter because the theory tells Jon is Lyanna's daughter, and Jon and Arya look alike. That Arya and Jon look alike, will only be because both Ned and Lyanna looked alike. They both looked like Starks. So it isn't strange if their children take after each other. You mean, tell the wife he hadn't met before his wedding, and whom he didn't know? The wife who valued family over everything, and would care more about the safety of her own family and son, than about the safety of the husband she barely knew, and the child who could get her own son killed? Ned didn't know Catelyn, and thus did not trust her with this huge secret. After a few years, when they loved each other and trusted each other, Ned found himself in a position where he could no longer tell her. Catelyn's attitude towards Jon had been observed by many for years, and telling Cat a secret so big while she could not change her attitude (which would certainly draw attention and raise eyes, and would draw unwanted attention to Jon), would only mean he would make her commit treason as well. That's because a pregnancy lasts 9 months, and Jon was born between the Battle of the Trident, and a month after the Battle of the Trident.And because the war had been lasting close to a year, and thus for longer than 9 months.And because Robert had been in the Vale, while Lyanna had been elsewhere, when she disappeared.. Also, it seems as if Robert didn't know Lyanna very well, leaving open the possibility of Robert only having met Lyanna once. He knew what she looked like, but he didn't know her personality, and fell in love with the person he imagined her to be, not the person who she actually was. We know Lyanna and Robert most likely met at Harrenhal (since they were both present), but after that, nothing.. And it wasn't Robert who went to Winterfell to ask for Lyanna's hand.. Ned did that for him.Also Robert winning over Rhaegar by raising Rhaegar's son doesn't sound like the Robert we see in the books. A bitter man with no vision outside of himself, who may well be so enraged that Lyanna loved Rhaegar and bore him a son that he would IMO kill Jon on sight. I don't like Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Also Robert winning over Rhaegar by raising Rhaegar's son doesn't sound like the Robert we see in the books. A bitter man with no vision outside of himself, who may well be so enraged that Lyanna loved Rhaegar and bore him a son that he would IMO kill Jon on sight. I don't like Robert No Westerosi Lord would, actually, unless he wanted to become the laughing stock of all Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlliYoyo Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Oh and a few months ago he was trying to tell me it was Ned and Lyanna. I corrected him immediately. I thought he understood until he suggest a month or so latter that it could be Benjen and Lyanna. Does your brother think incest is common in Westeros?... And he is my blood is an interesting choice of words as it isn't "he is my son" True... What is honourable in that situation is debatable. Ned would have felt worse if Rob had killed the babe and forced Ned into defending his family, possibly continuing the war. If the theory is true then the most noblest course is the one that Ned took, though it meant he lived a lie, which was what weighed the heaviest on him. It must be pointed out that even Ned sometimes believes there is honour in a lie, look at his conversation with Arya when she reveals that she and Jory drove Nymeria away rather than let Cersei kill her in AGoT. If GRRM starting talking about finding out who Jon's father is, it would give the game away a little bit, surely?None so blind as those who won't see. Just because some people want Jon to be Ned's son in blood not just upbringing... Well, I think that R+L=x, but x=/=J. But that's a personal feeling. I can definitely see the R+L subtext, but I think that N+?=J, but I have no clue as to ? is. Although, I agree, if GRRM started talking about finding out Jon's father then it would open a whole other can of worms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disputatious Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Aemon knows of the prophecy, but not of Jon. Dany is the last hope for TPTWP he sees, so he tries to bend the prophecy in order for it to fit..Aemon does nothing of the sort: it is you and others like you who are trying to bend the prophecy to fit Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disputatious Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 100 % not. If he even suspected Jon a Targ, tptwp, song of ice and fire and all that would jump at him, but no, he believes Dany as tptwp.No! Where are Jon's dragons, woken from stone as per the prophecy? Aemon knows perfectly well what a metaphorical dragon, he is one after all. Clearly, he understands the prophecy to mean real dragons, and it is wildly unlikely that he would have thought differently, had he known of Jon's parentage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 No! Where are Jon's dragons, woken from stone as per the prophecy? Aemon knows perfectly well what a metaphorical dragon, he is one after all. Clearly, he understands the prophecy to mean real dragons, and it is wildly unlikely that he would have thought differently, had he known of Jon's parentage. How would Aemon know if the prophecy meant real dragons, and not metaphorical dragons? We know Aemon is familiar with dragon dreams, but the dragons in those dreams all represented Targaryens, not real dragons. There is nothing that indicates that Aemon knew the prophecy was about real dragons, for as far as I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britisher Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 This theory is ridiculous - it is a THEORY so why should it be pinned? Just because Jon is not Catelyn's child doesn't mean he's Lyanna's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 This theory is ridiculous - it is a THEORY so why should it be pinned? Just because Jon is not Catelyn's child doesn't mean he's Lyanna's... Because of the overwhelming evidence as gathered in the reference guide on the first page. Feel free to peruse it before you drop in with strong opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Are you also planning to offer something worthwhile to this discussion? Or are you just here to bitch and moan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's Shadow Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 This theory is ridiculous - it is a THEORY so why should it be pinned? Just because Jon is not Catelyn's child doesn't mean he's Lyanna's... Oh wow. If you have something against certain threads being pinned, take it up with the moderators. I'm sure they'll happily oblige a one-weeker coming to tell them what they should or should not pin, and which in this case they probably have started doing long before you heard these books existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 This theory is a theory, water boils at 100 degrees Celsius, and Anakin is Darth Vader.That is also a list of facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 This theory is ridiculous - it is a THEORY so why should it be pinned? Just because Jon is not Catelyn's child doesn't mean he's Lyanna's... I don't think the argument runs "just because Jon isn't Cat's he must be Lyanna's"...In fact I'm almost sure there's something more to it... Seems like a lot of threads and pages to fill up if that were the argument... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Though the exact use of words is a bit different in speculating about fiction rather than science or something testable in the real world, but isn't this actually more like a hypothesis than a theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Well, I think that R+L=x, but x=/=J. But that's a personal feeling. I can definitely see the R+L subtext, but I think that N+?=J, but I have no clue as to ? is. That is one of the main issues - if Jon was indeed Ned's son, then by whom? There are only two women of his generation on Ned's mind, Catelyn and Lyanna, he never thinks or hints at any other. He was never the boy he was (per Robert), wasn't the one to take his pleasures (his own assessment). Ashara? How did he get from too shy to even ask for a dance to so bold as to bed her? And if he did bed her at HH, why not marry her, like Robb married Jeyne to get things right? Neither was engaged at that time (per Harwin). And how, when and where would he have met her during the Rebellion, to father Jon on her at the time of the Sack minus 8-9 months? And, since he was already married to Cat, would he have broken his vows like that, knowing that he would be unable to marry the girl he dishonoured? Wylla? No relationship as it would hardly escape the attention of his men; not a campfollower, for the same reason. Would Ned have had casual sex with some girl he met in some village? Why the secrecy then? Fisherman's daughter? That was before he married Cat, so why lie about Jon's age and about dishonouring Catelyn, placing Jon's conception after his marriage? - And that's it. No other woman tied to Lord Eddard, not a single one. We have run out of candidates, and the three above do not fit. It cannot be some mysterious unknown woman to be revealed only at the end of the series, there have to be some clues left for her identity, but there are none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britisher Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Because of the overwhelming evidence as gathered in the reference guide on the first page. Feel free to peruse it before you drop in with strong opinions. So it is possible, but can you prove it indisputably? I mean, it's also possible that Stannis is having an incestuous relationship with his daughter so until you prove otherwise then no. There are multiple theories about Jon's parentage, what if he is truly a bastard of Eddard Stark's? Can you prove otherwise? If you cannot then it is speculation about something that is possible as opposed to actual fact (for example, it's possible to have five children but that doesn't mean you will or have). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 So it is possible, but can you prove it indisputably? I mean, it's also possible that Stannis is having an incestuous relationship with his daughter so until you prove otherwise then no. There are multiple theories about Jon's parentage, what if he is truly a bastard of Eddard Stark's? Can you prove otherwise? If you cannot then it is speculation about something that is possible as opposed to actual fact (for example, it's possible to have five children but that doesn't mean you will or have). I cannot prove indisputably that the sun will rise tomorrow as I cannot rule out the chance that it will be devoured by Flying Spaghetti Monster. As for Jon being Ned's son, I adressed the main issues just in the post above yours. The other theories of Jon's parentage do not stand up to scrutiny, that's why this one stands. Do you have some facts or clues to challenge? Because theorising what comprises a theory or speculation isn't getting anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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