Melifeather Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 The Baby left at Castle Black was notorious for crying as well… As the queen points out... Because now his mother is gone.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 In ASOS Varamyr tells Jon "Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him," he said in a soft voice. "Once a beast's been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you. And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes." ETA: but remember, Orell's body was destroyed, it was consumed by the shadowcats after Jon killed him and dumped him into the canyon. Thanks, I had no idea where to find that quote, but I remember that that conversation had taken place... So Varamyr did the same thing to Orell that he did to Haggon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 If so, what does HBO intend to have Bran do next season?He could either turn into tree early and enlighten/confuse us with a vision now and then or be warging Hodor and go hunting with Meera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Because now his mother is gone.... Or Vice-Versa... -- I'm not saying the swap did or did not take place… I'm just saying that I don't think there are enough clues yet to know for sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 I disagree, I got the impression that Varmyr hearing Haggon's words "Abomination" is a regular occurrence in the life of Varamyr... -- Eventually those words will be echoing in Jon's head as well I'm still can't see how this could possibly happen. Orell wasn't controlling the eagle but his hatred for Jon sure did influence the eagle's actions. Because he newly began his "second life" in the Eagle,as time goes by you fade.If he'd lived 15yrs after that Orell would have been less an issue and the eagle would have been easier by any skinchanger to take. :agree: It wasn't Orell's eagle any more. When Bran was getting his flying lesson Bloodraven told him that it was easier to skinchange into a bird that had been ridden before, thus Varamyr found it easy to take over the eagle and there found Orell's shadow, but Orell wasn't controlling the eagle, just as Varamyr is aboard One-eye but no longer controlling him Agreed :agree: Well put Because now his mother is gone.... Agreed :agree: That's what babies do when their moms leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 I also wonder what Arya will do in season 5. If they have her go through all the FM training they need to have extra locations and supporting actors just for her storyline. If her big assignment is Daenerys, they need to do that, but if she ends up getting back to Bravos after the Mercy chapter, why have her go there in the first place (on tv)?She could keep on traveling with the Hound and lose him elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Thanks, I had no idea where to find that quote, but I remember that that conversation had taken place... So Varamyr did the same thing to Orell that he did to Haggon... I disagree. While I do see your point of him feeling Orell's hatred of Jon, he did not prevent Orell from a second life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Varamyr cannot end up in Jon. Varamyr is currently in his second life in One Eye. Now that's not to say that Jon can't skinchange into One Eye, but Varamyr would be more in the background. Jon would be able to sense Varamyr and his hatred, but Varamyr cannot jump into Jon. As soon as Jon slips out of One Eye, the connection would be lost. And the longer Varamyr is in One Eye, the less he would remember his previous life. He would become part of One Eye. I don't think we have learned enough about the Warging/Skinchanging arts to say for certainty that Varamyr cannot end up in Jon… You never know what new facet of Warging/Skinchanging GRRM might reveal next that may change the way we interpret the rules... Varamyr was the most powerful of all Wargs (living I guess, I think the Night's King was even more powerful)… We don't know what he may or may not be capable of... GRRM's "small but significant plot device" (regarding the wall's ability to block the warg connection), could set Jon up to gain unforeseen powers that could eventually enable some sort of interaction with Varamyr. -- Analyzing GRRM's writing style reveals some patterns… I think these patterns suggest that Varamyr is not finished influencing the story… Though I have a theory, I do not claim to know exactly how he will do this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blade of Sunlight Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Varamyr was the most powerful of all Wargs (living I guess, I think the Night's King was even more powerful)… We don't know what he may or may not be capable of... I'm not sure the NK was a very powerful warg, or a skinchanger at all. Although we don't know if BR ever skinchanged a wolf (and is therefore a warg), I feel it's safe to say he is a stronger skinchanger than V6. Bran is also possibly stronger than V6, in the books he briefly skinchanges Hodor, and in the series he does it far more extensively IIRC, while V6 after death tries to skinchange Thistle but fails, it's fair to say Thistle is smarter than Hodor and V6 was warging as spirit/second life not normal skinchanging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 I don't know about a fake meeting, but I agree with the rest of your ideas. I also think the GoT ending and the aSoIaF will be very different.Messed up the quote/response somehow, now I fixed it.Or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlan Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 I'm not sure the NK was a very powerful warg, or a skinchanger at all. Although we don't know if BR ever skinchanged a wolf (and is therefore a warg), I feel it's safe to say he is a stronger skinchanger than V6. Bran is also possibly stronger than V6, in the books he briefly skinchanges Hodor, and in the series he does it far more extensively IIRC, while V6 after death tries to skinchange Thistle but fails, it's fair to say Thistle is smarter than Hodor and V6 was warging as spirit/second life not normal skinchanging. In the books, Bran skinchanges hodor all the time. The first time bran skinchanged hodor was in the tower south of the wall. Its implied that he skinchanged hodor occasionally while they were going north of the wall. Bran skinchanges hodor when they are outside the COTF cave to save his own life. By the time we get to bran's POV chapter from inside the cotf cave, he is regularly skinchanging hodor in order to go adventuring inside the caves with meera and jojen. Bran even considers skinchanging hodor just so that he could give meera a hug when she got upset about jojen. By the end of aDwD, I'm not sure it even makes sense to talk about bran and hodor as separate people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 I don't think we have learned enough about the Warging/Skinchanging arts to say for certainty that Varamyr cannot end up in Jon… You never know what new facet of Warging/Skinchanging GRRM might reveal next that may change the way we interpret the rules... Varamyr was the most powerful of all Wargs (living I guess, I think the Night's King was even more powerful)… We don't know what he may or may not be capable of... GRRM's "small but significant plot device" (regarding the wall's ability to block the warg connection), could set Jon up to gain unforeseen powers that could eventually enable some sort of interaction with Varamyr. -- Analyzing GRRM's writing style reveals some patterns… I think these patterns suggest that Varamyr is not finished influencing the story… Though I have a theory, I do not claim to know exactly how he will do this... Based on the prologue of ADWD and BRan's lessons i thin GRRM has told us everything about Warging and Skinchanging.What could,can't be done is all packed into those two chapters.You still haven't given a plausible explanation about how and why Jon would even want to go into One eye.If you believe Jon is dead and he somehow leaves his familiar's body for One eye ( why i don't know) then Jon would have exceeded even V6 and therefore would be in no need of tutilage from him. As it stands V6 is a part of Bran/Summer's pack and therefore the only person that would have contact would One Eye's mind is Bran,and the longer V6 fades into One eye the less chance his "sociopathy" will rub off on Bran.V6's role was to show us the secrets of what happens to skinchangers when they are dying or experianced death.He gave us insightful details and that was it. For a man that was use to making everybody his bitch,it seemed fitting in the end he became someone else's. As for this notion that V6 was the "greatest skinchager" alive,it is illogical to assert that continually.V6 gave "himself" that title and last i checked there was no contests,counsels etc that decided he was the greatest. No one gave him the acalades he wears,but him.He "chose" to behave in a way that other skinchangers did not. It doesn't make him "Great" it makes him mentally broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 In the books, Bran skinchanges hodor all the time. The first time bran skinchanged hodor was in the tower south of the wall. Its implied that he skinchanged hodor occasionally while they were going north of the wall. Bran skinchanges hodor when they are outside the COTF cave to save his own life. By the time we get to bran's POV chapter from inside the cotf cave, he is regularly skinchanging hodor in order to go adventuring inside the caves with meera and jojen. Bran even considers skinchanging hodor just so that he could give meera a hug when she got upset about jojen. By the end of aDwD, I'm not sure it even makes sense to talk about bran and hodor as separate people But they are though,the very fact that Hodor "hides" from Bran indicates that he is an individual that has, and experiances aversions to being worn like that. NO matter what Bran tells himself Hodor "does not will him to do that".Nor does he like it so they can't and aren't one.What Bran does with Hodor is no different than what V6 did with his animals.Hodor still thrashes though it is less when Bran enters him.The more Bran does, the less Hodor will fight,not because he want's to but because like a horse he is being broken. This is the underline secret BR was trying to tell Bran.It was the reason Bran initially failed with the Crow.Because "he tried" instead of allowing the Crow to share his skin with him.Hence the reason he was successful the third time,he stopped trying to force and allowed the Crow to share its skin with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojen Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 In the books, Bran skinchanges hodor all the time. The first time bran skinchanged hodor was in the tower south of the wall. Its implied that he skinchanged hodor occasionally while they were going north of the wall. Bran skinchanges hodor when they are outside the COTF cave to save his own life. By the time we get to bran's POV chapter from inside the cotf cave, he is regularly skinchanging hodor in order to go adventuring inside the caves with meera and jojen. Bran even considers skinchanging hodor just so that he could give meera a hug when she got upset about jojen. By the end of aDwD, I'm not sure it even makes sense to talk about bran and hodor as separate people So we should expect to see "Brandor" POVs in Winds. That would be interesting. Or annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojen Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 This is the underline secret BR was trying to tell Bran.It was the reason Bran initially failed with the Crow.Because "he tried" instead of allowing the Crow to share his skin with him.Hence the reason he was successful the third time,he stopped trying to force and allowed the Crow to share its skin with him. I agree. I think there's definitely something to that. It's not about controlling another being, but working with them. That's something the Targs and the dragon riders of Valyria don't seem to have learned. They were all about dominance. You can't command water or earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blade of Sunlight Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 In the books, Bran skinchanges hodor all the time. The first time bran skinchanged hodor was in the tower south of the wall. Its implied that he skinchanged hodor occasionally while they were going north of the wall. Bran skinchanges hodor when they are outside the COTF cave to save his own life. By the time we get to bran's POV chapter from inside the cotf cave, he is regularly skinchanging hodor in order to go adventuring inside the caves with meera and jojen. Bran even considers skinchanging hodor just so that he could give meera a hug when she got upset about jojen. By the end of aDwD, I'm not sure it even makes sense to talk about bran and hodor as separate people I stand corrected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WierWood Wolf Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 They'll save them for later when Bran and co get the cave mouth and turn them into killer sheep, rather than a killer rabbit. And the Monty Python note I was hoping Jon would tell Karl 'It's just a flesh wound!'Personally I'd like to see Stannis with the Holy Handgrenade. Or BR conversation with Bran: "What is your name?" "Brandon of House Stark" BR:" what is your Quest?" Bran:" I seek the 3eyed Raven!" "What is your favorite color? Bran: " green... No gray! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlan Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 But they are though,the very fact that Hodor "hides" from Bran indicates that he is an individual that has, and experiances aversions to being worn like that. NO matter what Bran tells himself Hodor "does not will him to do that".Nor does he like it so they can't and aren't one.What Bran does with Hodor is no different than what V6 did with his animals.Hodor still thrashes though it is less when Bran enters him.The more Bran does, the less Hodor will fight,not because he want's to but because like a horse he is being broken. This is the underline secret BR was trying to tell Bran.It was the reason Bran initially failed with the Crow.Because "he tried" instead of allowing the Crow to share his skin with him.Hence the reason he was successful the third time,he stopped trying to force and allowed the Crow to share its skin with him. I was talking more in the practical sense of "at any given time,the odds of bran being in control of hodor are so high that your are nearly as likely to be talking to bran when talking to hodor as you are to be talking to hodor." Whether or not what bran is doing is morally acceptable is a different question. For now at least, Hodor effectively is Bran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 I was talking more in the practical sense of "at any given time,the odds of bran being in control of hodor are so high that your are nearly as likely to be talking to bran when talking to hodor as you are to be talking to hodor." Whether or not what bran is doing is morally acceptable is a different question. For now at least, Hodor effectively is Bran. In the practical sense yes,only we as the reader knows if Bran is masqerading as Hodor. I was speaking in the true sense of being distinct individuals.So my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I don't think we have learned enough about the Warging/Skinchanging arts to say for certainty that Varamyr cannot end up in Jon… You never know what new facet of Warging/Skinchanging GRRM might reveal next that may change the way we interpret the rules... Varamyr was the most powerful of all Wargs (living I guess, I think the Night's King was even more powerful)… We don't know what he may or may not be capable of... GRRM's "small but significant plot device" (regarding the wall's ability to block the warg connection), could set Jon up to gain unforeseen powers that could eventually enable some sort of interaction with Varamyr. -- Analyzing GRRM's writing style reveals some patterns… I think these patterns suggest that Varamyr is not finished influencing the story… Though I have a theory, I do not claim to know exactly how he will do this... While I'm not convinced that Varamyr will end up in Jon, you have given me an idea. What if the reason why Jon couldn't sense Ghost was because somebody else had slipped their skin and was in Ghost preventing a connection? If that's the case, who could it have been? And if they've done it once, will they do it again to prevent Jon from having a second life? Personally I'd like to see Stannis with the Holy Handgrenade. Or BR conversation with Bran: "What is your name?" "Brandon of House Stark" BR:" what is your Quest?" Bran:" I seek the 3eyed Raven!" "What is your favorite color? Bran: " green... No gray! :lmao: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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