Urrax2 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 While I'm not convinced that Varamyr will end up in Jon, you have given me an idea. What if the reason why Jon couldn't sense Ghost was because somebody else had slipped their skin and was in Ghost preventing a connection? If that's the case, who could it have been? And if they've done it once, will they do it again to prevent Jon from having a second life? ... Can anybody but Jon warg into Ghost? Seems like a Stark direwolf is totally matched with its Stark and nobody else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Varamyr Sixskins was a better warg than Robb or Sansa Stark, who never actually fully warged their direwolves (that we know of). Arya, Rickon, and Jon are greater wargs than Varamyr Sixskins, who had to force himself into each animal. Bran is the super-warg deluxe greenseer. What Bran is doing to Hodor is very dark although the show take-overs of Hodor make it more likely that we will see more Hodor habitations in the books later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 While I'm not convinced that Varamyr will end up in Jon, you have given me an idea. What if the reason why Jon couldn't sense Ghost was because somebody else had slipped their skin and was in Ghost preventing a connection? If that's the case, who could it have been? And if they've done it once, will they do it again to prevent Jon from having a second life? :lmao: I don't think this to be true,for one it goes back again to the Stark bonds to the Dirwolves and i don't think Ghost would not allow it.Plus i don't think another Skinchanger can ,they ( Direwolves) are not regular creatures,if anyone tried, i think they'd suffer the same fate Bran did with his first two Crows-Crash-You can't just jump their bones so to speak. I think Ghost severed his bond with Jon because he didn't want Jon to sense him until he was sure Jon was back at the Wall.Or he went somewhere where Jon could not sense hin.Which begs the question.Where did Ghost go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I would expect a greenseer would be able to warg Ghost. A greenseer is a warg and a skinchanger, so either Bloodraven did it, or Bran did inadvertently. Or, since Melisandre was messing with Ghost that one time, is it possible she figured out how to do it? If it was simply a glamour, Ghost should have been able to still smell that it was Jon. That's what I'm thinking anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Based on the prologue of ADWD and BRan's lessons i thin GRRM has told us everything about Warging and Skinchanging.What could,can't be done is all packed into those two chapters.You still haven't given a plausible explanation about how and why Jon would even want to go into One eye.If you believe Jon is dead and he somehow leaves his familiar's body for One eye ( why i don't know) then Jon would have exceeded even V6 and therefore would be in no need of tutilage from him. Considering that the books are not complete, it seems premature to me to think that you know every detail of being a Warg / Skinchanger... Do you also claim to know everything about the faceless men? Glass Candles? or the secrets of the Citadel? As I am not the one writing the books, I do not know what events might transpire that could put Jon into a situation where warging One Eye would seem advantageous… Perhaps Ghost gets a thorn in his paw? I don't know. It would not be reasonable to speculate on why Jon would choose to do such a thing. As it stands V6 is a part of Bran/Summer's pack and therefore the only person that would have contact would One Eye's mind is Bran,and the longer V6 fades into One eye the less chance his "sociopathy" will rub off on Bran.V6's role was to show us the secrets of what happens to skinchangers when they are dying or experianced death.He gave us insightful details and that was it. For a man that was use to making everybody his bitch,it seemed fitting in the end he became someone else's. Somehow, I don't think we have seen the last of Varamyr… It is just based upon GRRM's writing style which is not often discussed here & would be difficult to explain, but I don't think Varamyr's story is finished… Of course, you are entitled to disagree, as I'm sure most readers here do... As for this notion that V6 was the "greatest skinchager" alive,it is illogical to assert that continually.V6 gave "himself" that title and last i checked there was no contests,counsels etc that decided he was the greatest. No one gave him the acalades he wears,but him.He "chose" to behave in a way that other skinchangers did not. It doesn't make him "Great" it makes him mentally broken. Varamyr claims to be the greatest of all the skin-changers that he met at the Warg/skinchanging convention… I take him at his word. -- Hey, we get it, you don't like Varamyr… That really does not matter to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlan Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Somehow, I don't think we have seen the last of Varamyr… It is just based upon GRRM's writing style which is not often discussed here & would be difficult to explain, but I don't think Varamyr's story is finished… Of course, you are entitled to disagree, as I'm sure most readers here do... Varamyr claims to be the greatest of all the skin-changers that he met at the Warg/skinchanging convention… I take him at his word. -- Hey, we get it, you don't like Varamyr… That really does not matter to me... Every other prologue and epilogue POV character was never seen again after their POV. It seems to me, based on GRRM's past writing, that we are done with varamyr. As with the other pro/epilogue pov characters, we may have other people talk about him or talk about the things he did, but ultimately, the varamyr character seems done with.... How can you accept a persons self made claim that they are the best, but not accept the claims made by craster's wives that the blue eyed lot are taking craster's sons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 While I'm not convinced that Varamyr will end up in Jon, you have given me an idea. What if the reason why Jon couldn't sense Ghost was because somebody else had slipped their skin and was in Ghost preventing a connection? If that's the case, who could it have been? And if they've done it once, will they do it again to prevent Jon from having a second life? Well, I think Jon couldn't sense ghost due to the "small but significant plot device" that GRRM spoke of - The Wall's magic just blocks the Warg connection. Borroq the Skinchanger with the giant boar is positioned at the wall by GRRM because he will have some sort of interaction with Jon soon after Jon's body dies. GRRM has painted Borroq as darker figure, so it is very possible that Borroq does try & take Ghost away from Jon. Or Borroq might just be strange & not dark at all, he could teach Jon some stuff about Warging as others have suggested. I could be wrong, but I think Borroq will be a problem for Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Every other prologue and epilogue POV character was never seen again after their POV. It seems to me, based on GRRM's past writing, that we are done with varamyr. As with the other pro/epilogue pov characters, we may have other people talk about him or talk about the things he did, but ultimately, the varamyr character seems done with.... How can you accept a persons self made claim that they are the best, but not accept the claims made by craster's wives that the blue eyed lot are taking craster's sons? That pattern was broken with Varamyr's Prologue... That is what is interesting… You see, we already have seem Varamyr again (after his death) in a Bran POV chapter where Summer/Bran identifies One Eye as a Warg… Now why would GRRM have added that bit if Varamyr's role was complete? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I think Ghost severed his bond with Jon because he didn't want Jon to sense him until he was sure Jon was back at the Wall.Or he went somewhere where Jon could not sense hin.Which begs the question.Where did Ghost go? North of the Wall... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Varamyr claims to be the greatest of all the skin-changers that he met at the Warg/skinchanging convention… I take him at his word. That account comes straight from his memory and can't be disputed, I think. It's not a question of unreliable narration. We're right in his POV head and know what he thinks. I also find his capabilities impressive. You can see it in his name -- six skins, of a variety of species, all simultaneously. We can't name another skinchanger who has done that in the history of the continent. I do think the remarks that he does it by force are apt. The man is a literal rapist, and what he does to women is much the same as what he does to the shadowcat he uses to steer those women to his bed. But the strength he brings to the job is formidable. Can he preserve himself in One Eye for long? How long? I don't know. I don't know if the above strength of skinchanging is relevant to it or not. I also don't really have a sense whether he'll show up again as a player in the story or not. Logically, it seems not, but we already have seen Varamyr again (after his death) in a Bran POV chapter where Summer/Bran identifies One Eye as a Warg… Now why would GRRM have added that bit if Varamyr's role was complete? Seems a good question to me. And I agree it's suggestive GRRM would have bothered making One Eye part of Summer's pack at all, even without that direct recognition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I think Varamyr's POV was to present an example where one warg can block another warg from slipping into their familiar, especially if the one being blocked is weakened, like when Haggon was dying. Jon hasn't fully developed his abilities, so can we then say that his abilities aren't yet strong? Added to this is the stabbing. I imagine he will be very weak, if he's not dead. Maybe that's what happened to Coldhands? Maybe Coldhands was a warg when alive, and when he died was blocked from slipping into his familiar so his spirit stayed in his dead body? Normally I would call that a wight, but if you're a wighted warg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojen Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Every other prologue and epilogue POV character was never seen again after their POV. It seems to me, based on GRRM's past writing, that we are done with varamyr. As with the other pro/epilogue pov characters, we may have other people talk about him or talk about the things he did, but ultimately, the varamyr character seems done with.... Good point. We haven't seen a Pate POV walking around as Jaqen the Alchemist. Although I really, really doubt we could. No second life for him as a FM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 According to the ADWDs Prologue, Wargs/Skinchangers automatically go into their primary when they die... Haggon was not 'blocked', he was 'kicked out' by Varamyr... Perhaps Jon could be blocked from Ghost, I suppose it is possible; but it would be more likely to see someone try & kick Jon out of Ghost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 That account comes straight from his memory and can't be disputed, I think. It's not a question of unreliable narration. We're right in his POV head and know what he thinks. I also find his capabilities impressive. You can see it in his name -- six skins, of a variety of species, all simultaneously. We can't name another skinchanger who has done that in the history of the continent. I do think the remarks that he does it by force are apt. The man is a literal rapist, and what he does to women is much the same as what he does to the shadowcat he uses to steer those women to his bed. But the strength he brings to the job is formidable. Can he preserve himself in One Eye for long? How long? I don't know. I don't know if the above strength of skinchanging is relevant to it or not. I also don't really have a sense whether he'll show up again as a player in the story or not. Logically, it seems not, but Seems a good question to me. And I agree it's suggestive GRRM would have bothered making One Eye part of Summer's pack at all, even without that direct recognition. I try not to get into the Varamyr stuff. Maybe because I don't find the guy likable - so I sort of hope we're done with him. And I think we are - I'd say there's a 96% chance he never shows up again. Though if that's the case, I'll admit it is a bit odd that Bran runs into One-Eye and crew at all. But then... Bran seems to run into just about everybody, doesn't he? Jon (at Queenscrown), Sam & Gilly (at the Nightfort), the mutineers from Craster's Keep (through Summer/Coldhands), Varamyr's wolves, etc. So maybe it's not all that bizarre after all. Bran, along with Sam, seems to be a POV that sort of ties storylines together - and I expect that continues with the advantage of greensight (we've already seen him show up through the weirwood in Theon chapters in ADWD, and possibly in an Arya/Nymeria sample chapter from WOW). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaesterSam Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 The way we've tended to interpret this in the past is that there were a number of kingdoms of First Men in the North, beyond what's now the Wall. During the Long Night these kingdoms [with the exception of the Thenns] were destroyed and their kings either dead or fled. The first wildlings were the scattered survivors, abandoned by their lords - hence their aversion to kneeling. So is the general consensus that this is a true story then, that the women of the northernmost kingdoms were procreating with the Others during the Long Night? The reason I ask is b/c if this story were true, it would seem to suggest that special bloodlines are not required for making "terrible half human children" with the Others. It also appears that it doesn't matter who (Other or human) is the man and who the woman. (human women and male Other, or female 'corpse queen' Other and human Night's King). Lastly, it seems strange that they require baby sacrifices of Craster, or anyone, when they could just steal his wives (or any number of wildling women) and produce their own offspring... So basically what I'm trying to say is that if bedding human women is an option, the Others don't in fact require sacrifices in order to make more of themselves. Which seems to go against a lot of pretty solid evidence as well as well thought out theories... hence my attempt to poke holes in Old Nan's tale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Lastly, it seems strange that they require baby sacrifices of Craster, or anyone, when they could just steal his wives (or any number of wildling women) and produce their own offspring... But then you would have to put up with them… Probably best to just take the babies find a good call-girl you can see from time to time… As it is now, Craster is the one who has to put up with all these crazy women... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaesterSam Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 But then you would have to put up with them… Probably best to just take the babies find a good call-girl you can see from time to time… As it is now, Craster is the one who has to put up with all these crazy women... Ah, I see. They prefer the company of men. Good one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I also wonder what Arya will do in season 5. If they have her go through all the FM training they need to have extra locations and supporting actors just for her storyline. If her big assignment is Daenerys, they need to do that, but if she ends up getting back to Bravos after the Mercy chapter, why have her go there in the first place (on tv)?She could keep on traveling with the Hound and lose him elsewhere. No, I think she'll definitely go to Braavos so that the show viewers see the House of Black and White and learn a little about how the Faceless Men's magic works, and about the many faced God. I'll be surprised if she gets much past the Titan this season. I could see her arrive at the House of Black and White, but I doubt we'll get any material from it. There has been no word of the Kindly Man being cast for instance. And then there's still Cat of the Canals and the Blind Girl, not to mention, they could still have the Mercy assassination, it would just have to be of someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 But then... Bran seems to run into just about everybody, doesn't he? Jon (at Queenscrown), Sam & Gilly (at the Nightfort), the mutineers from Craster's Keep (through Summer/Coldhands), Varamyr's wolves, etc. Then again, he never meets Mance, Tormund, Val, Dalla, Mel, Stannis, Wun Wun, Qhorin, Iron Emmett, any Others, etc. (...in the books. On the show, they might all wind up at a slumber party in the Heart of Winter.) To me the curious thing is that Varamyr is an ongoing, daily part of Bran's life via Summer and One Eye. This is very convenient for GRRM as a storyteller; wherever Bran goes, V6 is sure to follow, at least until the battery runs out. My own rough odds would be 90/10 that V6 is not going to do anything more than, say, Orell continued to do as an eagle. As it is now, Craster is the one who has to put up with all these crazy women... I've thought before the Others are really not going about things very wisely, if they indeed have anything to do with Craster's babies. What they need is not Craster, but a sperm bank. Should be easy enough to keep the swimmers on ice, right? "Cold preserves." Add that to captured wildling women and they could make any number of babies, any time they need, and not be dependent on whether Craster feels like getting laid, has enough little blue pills, etc. The whole Wait for Craster to Dump A Baby plan seems woefully inefficient and unpredictable. (A sperm bank would also make analysis of Jon's parentage considerably more complex. Even characters who died too early, like Brandon, could come into play as possible fathers.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Considering that the books are not complete, it seems premature to me to think that you know every detail of being a Warg / Skinchanger... Do you also claim to know everything about the faceless men? Glass Candles? or the secrets of the Citadel? As I am not the one writing the books, I do not know what events might transpire that could put Jon into a situation where warging One Eye would seem advantageous Perhaps Ghost gets a thorn in his paw? I don't know. It would not be reasonable to speculate on why Jon would choose to do such a thing. Somehow, I don't think we have seen the last of Varamyr It is just based upon GRRM's writing style which is not often discussed here & would be difficult to explain, but I don't think Varamyr's story is finished Of course, you are entitled to disagree, as I'm sure most readers here do... Varamyr claims to be the greatest of all the skin-changers that he met at the Warg/skinchanging convention I take him at his word. --Hey, we get it, you don't like Varamyr That really does not matter to me...What is a fact, V6 is now in Bran's pack, how Jon will have anything to do with him is not even inferred. You are incorrect V6 never specific as to who he was better than except Haggon.it was a repeated boast." I am the greatest", I am the great V6.So I stand by my assessment. It was his and his opinion only.Lastly, I have no like or dislike for him He is a character in a book to be analyzed. And he is a Sociopath his behavior and attitude and beliefs about his "grestness" is spot on his sociopathy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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