Heresy 113

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I wonder who will be fake Arya in the tv show and what comes out of Asha(Yara) attacking the Dreadfort. If Asha either gets killed or taken prisoner to become fake Arya, even more of the ADwD plot is identified as filler.

Hadn't even considered that possibility, wow, good call.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Ha that would be a good twist, making yAsha into fArya. It actually would only change the Kingsmoot slightly since Asha has to run away with her tail between her legs and then manage to get captured by Stannis and his Ents. It would eventually end up in the same place: yAsha captured along with Theon.

Yikes, thinking of Asha going through that "marriage" gives me shivers, especially with her brother present. Takes is from a 12 on the sick meter out of 10 to a 20.

[Melifeather]

I always thought the dog refers to Reek and not a real dog.

Mance frees fArya despite knowing she is not real because it undermines the Bolton rule over the North and forces them to do pursuit her leading to their eventual demise.

On another note:

While I read Snowfyre's Gilly posts I came around a theory/hunch of addicted to snow: that V6 will somehow end up in Jon's head. But you had no satisfactory explanation on how that might happen, a theory of mine might help you out on that ;) You can read about it here: http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/22mnlr/spoilers_all_abomination_a_different_take_on/

Varamyr cannot end up in Jon. Varamyr is currently in his second life in One Eye. Now that's not to say that Jon can't skinchange into One Eye, but Varamyr would be more in the background. Jon would be able to sense Varamyr and his hatred, but Varamyr cannot jump into Jon. As soon as Jon slips out of One Eye, the connection would be lost. And the longer Varamyr is in One Eye, the less he would remember his previous life. He would become part of One Eye.

Apologies if I'm repeating this question...

What are the thoughts on "the Monster"? (Gilly's baby, i.e. a non Other'd Craster son)

Reading aDwD the whole baby switch story line really stuck out as being somewhat unnecessary. Sure it got Sam away from Jon but that could have been achieved in a number of other ways. However, it does create a situation where we have a baby whose presumed bloodline is important for the (highly dubious) 'kings blood' but actually is important for a whole different reason.

Is this what will evetually bring the Others to the wall? They did appear to be following Sam and Gilly prior to Coldhands intervention...

Mance's son was switched with Gilly's son to keep Mance's son safe from being sacrificed. I don't know that Jon lets on as to whether or not he believes there's power in King's blood or not, but I was under the assumption that he did the switch as part of an arrangement made with Mance. If Melisandre were to take Gilly's son in order to sacrifice it, Jon could then tell Melisandre that it's not Mance's son, and thus Gilly's son would be safe from harm too.

I do think Gilly's son is like a magnet for the White Walkers and he will draw them towards the Wall. The women of Craster's Keep muse have had a purpose in mind, as I believe they knew exactly what they were doing.

I wonder who will be fake Arya in the tv show and what comes out of Asha(Yara) attacking the Dreadfort. If Asha either gets killed or taken prisoner to become fake Arya, even more of the ADwD plot is identified as filler.

It seems like a likely scenario as it would save the show from hiring another actress, and that does make Asha's trip to the Dreadfort so early in the show make more sense. The only problem is Asha would not be as easily manipulated as Jeyne, nor as afraid, but it would be nice for Theon/Reek to have his sister when they make their escape.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Hmm I'm not entirely sure about that because of the legalities. Until a manuscript is published it is not copyrighted material. This could open up a can of worms because even though Martin sold the rights to ASoIaF concept to HBO he has not sold the rights to his books. That means that if B&W use parts found in TWoW in GoT before they are published, whose intellectual property is it? HBO's or Martin's? Legally the would be HBO's. Morally they would be Martin's. Complex legal cases have been fought for less.

This all supposes Martin has not taken out a copyright on the entire concept of the SoIF world, meaning that anything he writes on a cocktail napkin, voices aloud or thinks about the world is his and his alone. (c.f. Rowling and her Potterverse.)

I would think this has already been worked out considering the show might just finish before the books and that they've already discussed the ending, and the ending point for most of the major characters.

[Armstark]

wut?

You can read more about it here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78551-aryas-relationship-with-death/

Varamyr cannot end up in Jon. Varamyr is currently in his second life in One Eye. Now that's not to say that Jon can't skinchange into One Eye, but Varamyr would be more in the background. Jon would be able to sense Varamyr and his hatred, but Varamyr cannot jump into Jon. As soon as Jon slips out of One Eye, the connection would be lost. And the longer Varamyr is in One Eye, the less he would remember his previous life. He would become part of One Eye.

I know all that. Did you even read the link I posted? What I suggest has nothing to do with warging.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

You can read more about it here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78551-aryas-relationship-with-death/

I know all that. Did you even read the link I posted? What I suggest has nothing to do with warging.

Interesting read. The bits about the Children being able to talk to the dead and the silent sisters possibly as well was interesting. I wonder if Arya will take on an identity of a Silent Sister at some point and we'll get some insight into what it is they do.

[Harlan]

Mance frees fArya despite knowing she is not real because it undermines the Bolton rule over the North and forces them to do pursuit her leading to their eventual demise.

I feel like killing Roose would have undermined the bolton rule over the north a lot better. Even just killing farya might have undermined bolton rule and been easier than trying to free her.

I wonder who will be fake Arya in the tv show and what comes out of Asha(Yara) attacking the Dreadfort. If Asha either gets killed or taken prisoner to become fake Arya, even more of the ADwD plot is identified as filler.

I can think of only two alternatives:

1. No FArya plotline at all (not sure how they'd do that)

2. Meera and friends just drop bran off at the cave and come immediately south. Meera would get captured and serve as FArya

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I feel like killing Roose would have undermined the bolton rule over the north a lot better. Even just killing farya might have undermined bolton rule and been easier than trying to free her.

I can think of only two alternatives:

1. No FArya plotline at all (not sure how they'd do that)

2. Meera and friends just drop bran off at the cave and come immediately south. Meera would get captured and serve as FArya

I was kind of thinking the girl he was out hunting the other girl with might substitute for fArya, but no idea why anyone would bother rescuing her once they see it's not her instead of just killing her.

[Melifeather]

You can read more about it here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78551-aryas-relationship-with-death/

I know all that. Did you even read the link I posted? What I suggest has nothing to do with warging.

You are right. I hadn't the first time, but I have now. My instinctual thought is the reason why Varamyr had Hagon's thoughts inside him was because he prevented Haggon from living a second life. Haggon was planning on living his second life in his wolf, but Varamyr slipped inside Haggon's wolf at the time of Haggon's death and prevented his spirit from entering. Next, he killed and ate Haggon's heart before his spirit could float away, so it sounds like Haggon's spirit was stuck inside his body when he died, thus he had no second life.

In Jon's instance, Varamyr was able to slip into his familiar, One Eye and so he is living his second life. Jon would have had to eat Varamyr's heart AND prevented Varamyr from living a second life.

[Tyryan Lannister]

You are right. I hadn't the first time, but I have now. My instinctual thought is the reason why Varamyr had Hagon's thoughts inside him was because he prevented Haggon from living a second life. Haggon was planning on living his second life in his wolf, but Varamyr slipped inside Haggon's wolf at the time of Haggon's death and prevented his spirit from entering. Next, he killed and ate Haggon's heart before his spirit could float away, so it sounds like Haggon's spirit was stuck inside his body when he died, thus he had no second life.

In Jon's instance, Varamyr was able to slip into his familiar, One Eye and so he is living his second life. Jon would have had to eat Varamyr's heart AND prevented Varamyr from living a second life.

I just don't see any Jon-Varamyr after-life connections; Bran-Varamyr, however? Possibly. Remember, Summer has started to build a pack, currently consisting of... Varamyr's three wolves

[Jojen]

I wonder if Mel would burn Monster if she found out he almost was a WW. Or would she try to have him raised to worship Red Rahloo?

[Blade of Sunlight]

I wonder if Mel would burn Monster if she found out he almost was a WW. Or would she try to have him raised to worship Red Rahloo?

Very interesting, another possible question would be the effects on Jon if Mel tries to heal/resurrect him using Monster (thinking he his Mance's son).

[nedhed]

another possible question would be the effects on Jon if Mel tries to heal/resurrect him using Monster (thinking he his Mance's son).

very cool thought

[MaesterSam]

Just a thought on the who was in charge business. Although we never get details one of the things Old Nan told Bran about Wildlings was that during the Long Night their women lay with the Others to produce terrible half human children. Beyond that we don't get anything, but it could hint at the importance of the women rather than Craster and his predecessors. I'm still inclined to see him as a corn king rather than a real one.

This is interesting. How were there Wildlings at all during the Long Night, if the Wall didn't go up until after it was over?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...another possible question would be the effects on Jon if Mel tries to heal/resurrect him using Monster (thinking he his Mance's son).

Yes, that is one of the things I wonder about. Remember, we've already seen one baby sacrificed in this story - Rhaego - and the end result of that incident went beyond the expectations of all participants. Mirri Maz Duur felt pretty smug for a while... but had no idea the can of wyrms she actually opened in that tent.

Mel's entire mission looks like a dark comedy of errors to me. Stumblin', bumblin', fumblin'... she'll get where she's going in the end, but she won't be able to tell you how she arrived. And throwing Monster on the fire seems like just the sort of thing she might do... without fully comprehending the potential results.

[Armstark]

You are right. I hadn't the first time, but I have now. My instinctual thought is the reason why Varamyr had Hagon's thoughts inside him was because he prevented Haggon from living a second life. Haggon was planning on living his second life in his wolf, but Varamyr slipped inside Haggon's wolf at the time of Haggon's death and prevented his spirit from entering. Next, he killed and ate Haggon's heart before his spirit could float away, so it sounds like Haggon's spirit was stuck inside his body when he died, thus he had no second life.

In Jon's instance, Varamyr was able to slip into his familiar, One Eye and so he is living his second life. Jon would have had to eat Varamyr's heart AND prevented Varamyr from living a second life.

The way I understood it is that Varamyr first drove Haggon out of his wolf and claimed the wolf for himself and then he killed Haggon and ate his heart. If you lose your familar and are thus denied a second life shouldn't you just die a normal death? Yet Haggon is clearly present in Varamyr's mind.

Just to be clear: I do not believe Varamyr ends up in Jon's head, I just stumbled upon this theory of ats and thought I might share my theory because it connects well with his.

I think hearts (and eating them) play a significant role in the story. You have the Heart of Winter and the Heart Tree and the Burned Heart, I think it is no coincidence that all three major players (cold lot, children, red lot) have their spiritual center connected to or described as a heart. Melisandre has this curious line:

“If that is the will of R’hllor. Night’s powers cannot touch one whose heart is bathed in

god’s holy fire.”

“You heart does not concern me. Just your hands.”

“The heart is all that matters. Do not despair, Lord Snow. Despair is a weapon of the

enemy, whose name may not be spoken. Your sister is not lost to you.”

I am inclined to agree with her.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Also worth mentioning again just how crammed Castle Black is with flammable "wild card" characters right now. You've got:

- Monster (Craster's last son; White Walker Starter Pack)

- Jon Snow (son of Winterfell; recently murdered Lord Commander of NW)

- Ghost (albino direwolf; property of old gods; possibly warged)

- Borroq and his giant boar (skinchanger; living in the graveyard tombs)

- Patchface (oddball; demon avatar of the drowned god?)

- Shireen Baratheon (greyscale vector; dragondreamer?)

- Val (secret priestess of [c]old gods?)

- Melisandre (pyromaniac; maverick priestess of Red Rahloo)

That looks like a remarkably combustible mix, with Mel a bit overly-inclined to play with matches. And we've already been told that magic is particularly powerful at the Wall...

[Blade of Sunlight]

Mel's entire mission looks like a dark comedy of errors to me. Stumblin', bumblin', fumblin'... she'll get where she's going in the end, but she won't be able to tell you how she arrived. And throwing Monster on the fire seems like just the sort of thing she might do... without fully comprehending the potential results.

:agree: And very funny way of putting it! :D

[Black Crow]

This is interesting. How were there Wildlings at all during the Long Night, if the Wall didn't go up until after it was over?

The way we've tended to interpret this in the past is that there were a number of kingdoms of First Men in the North, beyond what's now the Wall. During the Long Night these kingdoms [with the exception of the Thenns] were destroyed and their kings either dead or fled. The first wildlings were the scattered survivors, abandoned by their lords - hence their aversion to kneeling.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

The way I understood it is that Varamyr first drove Haggon out of his wolf and claimed the wolf for himself and then he killed Haggon and ate his heart. If you lose your familar and are thus denied a second life shouldn't you just die a normal death? Yet Haggon is clearly present in Varamyr's mind.

Just to be clear: I do not believe Varamyr ends up in Jon's head, I just stumbled upon this theory of ats and thought I might share my theory because it connects well with his.

I think hearts (and eating them) play a significant role in the story. You have the Heart of Winter and the Heart Tree and the Burned Heart, I think it is no coincidence that all three major players (cold lot, children, red lot) have their spiritual center connected to or described as a heart. Melisandre has this curious line:

“If that is the will of R’hllor. Night’s powers cannot touch one whose heart is bathed in

god’s holy fire.”

“You heart does not concern me. Just your hands.”

“The heart is all that matters. Do not despair, Lord Snow. Despair is a weapon of the

enemy, whose name may not be spoken. Your sister is not lost to you.”

I am inclined to agree with her.

Good call. We've also got Dany literally eating a stallion's heart as part of the Dothraki prophetic rituals at Vaes Dothrak... and the "human heart, swollen and blue with corruption, yet still alive," that she sees floating above the long stone table in the House of the Undying. Then there is the (as yet) unexplained beating of drums in Winterfell during Theon's last chapters in ADWD - likened to a heartbeat.