Heresy 113

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Then again, he never meets Mance, Tormund, Val, Dalla, Mel, Stannis, Wun Wun, Qhorin, Iron Emmett, any Others, etc.

(...in the books. On the show, they might all wind up at a slumber party in the Heart of Winter.)

You know, we'll probably need to see the Wildling Horde before the attack at the wall, so it probably wouldn't surprise me if Bran and the gang don't at least see it at a distance and have to navigate around it.

To me the curious thing is that Varamyr is an ongoing, daily part of Bran's life via Summer and One Eye. This is very convenient for GRRM as a storyteller; wherever Bran goes, V6 is sure to follow, at least until the battery runs out.

My own rough odds would be 90/10 that V6 is not going to do anything more than, say, Orell continued to do as an eagle.

Something just occurred to me. Is there any chance that Varamyr IS a greenseer, that just never got recruited by the Children?? The only other person that we've seen "force" their way into a skin change was Bran, and Hodor is a simpleton.

So maybe he is really playing by different rules than Orell and possibly Haggon.

I've thought before the Others are really not going about things very wisely, if they indeed have anything to do with Craster's babies.

What they need is not Craster, but a sperm bank. Should be easy enough to keep the swimmers on ice, right? "Cold preserves." Add that to captured wildling women and they could make any number of babies, any time they need, and not be dependent on whether Craster feels like getting laid, has enough little blue pills, etc. The whole Wait for Craster to Dump A Baby plan seems woefully inefficient and unpredictable.

(A sperm bank would also make analysis of Jon's parentage considerably more complex. Even characters who died too early, like Brandon, could come into play as possible fathers.)

Say it with me... Benjen Stark. I strongly believe that Benjen was out ranging looking into the reports of "white walkers", and picked up the horn and the obsidian (perhaps he got the horn from the Crypts while visiting?), and then ran into the wights/Popsicles and stashed the stuff at the Fist of the First Men to keep the Popsicles from getting it, but was then captured by them and taken to the Heart of Winter...

[wolfmaid7]

That account comes straight from his memory and can't be disputed, I think. It's not a question of unreliable narration. We're right in his POV head and know what he thinks.

I also find his capabilities impressive. You can see it in his name -- six skins, of a variety of species, all simultaneously. We can't name another skinchanger who has done that in the history of the continent.

I do think the remarks that he does it by force are apt. The man is a literal rapist, and what he does to women is much the same as what he does to the shadowcat he uses to steer those women to his bed. But the strength he brings to the job is formidable.

Can he preserve himself in One Eye for long? How long? I don't know. I don't know if the above strength of skinchanging is relevant to it or not.

I also don't really have a sense whether he'll show up again as a player in the story or not. Logically, it seems not, but

Seems a good question to me. And I agree it's suggestive GRRM would have bothered making One Eye part of Summer's pack at all, even without that direct recognition.

I dispute it becsuse it is incorrect, the only person V6 ever said his gift was stronger than was Haggon. Again it is subjective what he spouts about being the greatest. He judges greatness by breaking the rules set to guide him.You can't say you are great becsuse some one has the wisdom not to break the rules.

If anything one eye is most likely to be skinchanged by Bran.given the reaction to Bran beating his but. Rolling on his back and showing his belly, I say he's fading.

[JNR]

Something just occurred to me. Is there any chance that Varamyr IS a greenseer, that just never got recruited by the Children?? The only other person that we've seen "force" their way into a skin change was Bran, and Hodor is a simpleton

I've wondered the same thing. Bloodraven said he's been watching Bran his whole life; presumably he can track anybody he wants, anywhere, and so could have done the same for Varamyr.

And in that case, I would imagine Varamyr was perceived to be in violation of the morals clause of the greenseer contract, and as you say, stamped REJECT.

Say it with me... Benjen Stark. I strongly believe that Benjen was out ranging looking into the reports of "white walkers", and picked up the horn and the obsidian (perhaps he got the horn from the Crypts while visiting?), and then ran into the wights/Popsicles and stashed the stuff at the Fist of the First Men to keep the Popsicles from getting it, but was then captured by them and taken to the Heart of Winter...

You mean so they could get easy access to official Stark sperm?

(I'm wondering how they would induce him to pony it up. My guess is the supply of quality porn is not what it might be in the uttermost north.)

[JNR]

I dispute it becsuse it is incorrect, the only person V6 ever said his gift was stronger than was Haggon.

Well, the quote is

None of them had been as strong as Varamyr Sixskins, though, not even Haggon, tall and grim with his hands as hard as stone.

I think he believed he was stronger than all of them, at least.

ETA: But despite that, something tells me if he tried that stuff on Ghost, Ghost would rip his throat out. I was really shocked when Mel managed her little stunt of getting Ghost to like her, and not even seem to recognize Jon.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

The way I understood it is that Varamyr first drove Haggon out of his wolf and claimed the wolf for himself and then he killed Haggon and ate his heart. If you lose your familar and are thus denied a second life shouldn't you just die a normal death? Yet Haggon is clearly present in Varamyr's mind.

Just to be clear: I do not believe Varamyr ends up in Jon's head, I just stumbled upon this theory of ats and thought I might share my theory because it connects well with his.

I think hearts (and eating them) play a significant role in the story. You have the Heart of Winter and the Heart Tree and the Burned Heart, I think it is no coincidence that all three major players (cold lot, children, red lot) have their spiritual center connected to or described as a heart. Melisandre has this curious line:

If that is the will of Rhllor. Nights powers cannot touch one whose heart is bathed in

gods holy fire.

You heart does not concern me. Just your hands.

The heart is all that matters. Do not despair, Lord Snow. Despair is a weapon of the

enemy, whose name may not be spoken. Your sister is not lost to you.

I am inclined to agree with her.

That is what I get from Varamyr also. He stole the wolf then killed the weeping Haggon. The piece of Hagon left behind would be the passive part of the skinchanger that was in the wolf's conscious during their life together. Varamyr was an asshole, but he was very powerful. I am reminded of Jojens statement to Bran about greenseers. Paraphrasing Jojen - Greenseers were wargs also, like you. The greatest of them could skinchange with any animal and the weirwoods too.

Not saying Varamyr was a greenseer, but he was almost there in power.

I think that One Eye/Varamyr becoming part of Summer/Bran's pack is interesting. Don't know why Varamyr is the first one to live on after a prologue, or if it means anything with his 'self ' fading away in the wolf. But, I think Summer may be gathering a pack similar to Nymeria. Maybe even a direwolf or two will show up if GRRM decides to throw some more of them in the story.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I've wondered the same thing. Bloodraven said he's been watching Bran his whole life; presumably he can track anybody he wants, anywhere, and so could have done the same for Varamyr.

And in that case, I would imagine Varamyr was perceived to be in violation of the morals clause of the greenseer contract, and as you say, stamped REJECT.

Exactly, and I wonder if that has happened before? Night's King? Someone else?

And if BR finds out that Bran has been inhabiting Hodor, is Bran in some sort of danger?

You mean so they could get easy access to official Stark sperm?

(I'm wondering how they would induce him to pony it up. My guess is the supply of quality porn is not what it might be in the uttermost north.)

Well, the "Ice Queen" or "White Walker Female" didn't seem to have trouble getting the Night's King to play along.

[JNR]

And if BR finds out that Bran has been inhabiting Hodor, is Bran in some sort of danger?

This is an interesting question.

My own guess is Bloodraven won't find out, because the weirwood vision seems to be just that -- vision, not telepathy -- and there is no outward sign that Bran is skinchanging Hodor. So I'm not sure Bloodraven would have the power to tell this was happening, unless he tried to engage Bran in conversation and Bran was unresponsive.

Also, we can be confident Hodor's not going to go to Bloodraven and complain.

With Varamyr, on the other hand, weirwood vision would have been more than enough. Just watching a shadowcat lead a weeping girl to Varamyr once would be plenty.

[addicted to snow]

I dispute it becsuse it is incorrect, the only person V6 ever said his gift was stronger than was Haggon. Again it is subjective what he spouts about being the greatest. He judges greatness by breaking the rules set to guide him.You can't say you are great becsuse some one has the wisdom not to break the rules.

If anything one eye is most likely to be skinchanged by Bran.given the reaction to Bran beating his but. Rolling on his back and showing his belly, I say he's fading.

Varamyr is a fucking BOSS... he let summer win just to gain Bran's confidence...

[wolfmaid7]

I've wondered the same thing. Bloodraven said he's been watching Bran his whole life; presumably he can track anybody he wants, anywhere, and so could have done the same for Varamyr.

And in that case, I would imagine Varamyr was perceived to be in violation of the morals clause of the greenseer contract, and as you say, stamped REJECT.

You mean so they could get easy access to official Stark sperm?

(I'm wondering how they would induce him to pony it up. My guess is the supply of quality porn is not what it might be in the uttermost north.)

I'm confused, why would V6 be GS? Other than him having a serious issues mentally what makes him that material?

Well, the quote is

I think he believed he was stronger than all of them, at least.

ETA: But despite that, something tells me if he tried that stuff on Ghost, Ghost would rip his throat out. I was really shocked when Mel managed her little stunt of getting Ghost to like her, and not even seem to recognize Jon.

That's pretty much is my point, and the context of the quote was again a boast that is so abstract in that it can't be prooven,its subjective.

Exactly, and I wonder if that has happened before? Night's King? Someone else?

And if BR finds out that Bran has been inhabiting Hodor, is Bran in some sort of danger?

Well, the "Ice Queen" or "White Walker Female" didn't seem to have trouble getting the Night's King to play along.

Everything about BR's lessons goes against what Bran is doing to Hodor.Maybe he would set some type of rules for Bran,maybe not.

[Melifeather]

Well, the quote is

I think he believed he was stronger than all of them, at least.

ETA: But despite that, something tells me if he tried that stuff on Ghost, Ghost would rip his throat out. I was really shocked when Mel managed her little stunt of getting Ghost to like her, and not even seem to recognize Jon.

I think the idea that Melisandre slipped into Ghost deserves at least a little bit of scrutiny. Like I mentioned before, if it was a visual glamour, then Ghost should have been able to smell Jon. Aren't glamours just a trick of the mind and eyes? But, what if Melisandre was inside Ghost? Ghost would have been agitated to say the least, and not necessarily growling at Jon, but maybe at Melisandre.

[wolfmaid7]

Varamyr is a fucking BOSS... he let summer win just to gain Bran's confidence...

Suuuuuuure he did.I doubt even you believe that.

[Melifeather]

I'm confused, why would V6 be GS? Other than him having a serious issues mentally what makes him that material?

That's pretty much is my point, and the context of the quote was again a boast that is so abstract in that it can't be prooven,its subjective.

Everything about BR's lessons goes against what Bran is doing to Hodor.Maybe he would set some type of rules for Bran,maybe not.

I think they are going off the line about greenseers being wargs and that the mightiest could warg any animal.

[wolfmaid7]

I think the idea that Melisandre slipped into Ghost deserves at least a little bit of scrutiny. Like I mentioned before, if it was a visual glamour, then Ghost should have been able to smell Jon. Aren't glamours just a trick of the mind and eyes? But, what if Melisandre was inside Ghost? Ghost would have been agitated to say the least, and not necessarily growling at Jon, but maybe at Melisandre.

Feather ,i doubt Mel slipped into Ghost,a glamour isn't only about visual when you take on the likeness of someone.You take on the likenss of someone.

[JNR]

I think the idea that Melisandre slipped into Ghost deserves at least a little bit of scrutiny. Like I mentioned before, if it was a visual glamour, then Ghost should have been able to smell Jon. Aren't glamours just a trick of the mind and eyes? But, what if Melisandre was inside Ghost? Ghost would have been agitated to say the least, and not necessarily growling at Jon, but maybe at Melisandre.

I agree a glamour alone could not possibly have done the trick.

If Mel is a skinchanger (as I think you're suggesting)... hmm. I guess I just struggle with the idea anybody could replace Jon that way, so instantly and easily.

I think maybe there's something else going on there that we just don't understand yet. And that Jon doesn't understand yet.

I recall wolfmaid very astutely pointed out that once, in talking to Jon, Mel started to identify Ghost in an unusual way, as if she perceives some truth about him that we don't, and then stopped herself. This hidden truth, if it exists, might be relevant.

I think they are going off the line about greenseers being wargs and that the mightiest could warg any animal.

There's certainly that.

But more, if you think of what Bloodraven got Bran to do, to find out "what it means to be a greenseer" -- it was to skinchange not an animal but a weirwood. The implication was that skinchanging is right at the heart of greenseeing and great strength/skill in the one helps determine the capacity to be the other.

[Harlan]

Aren't glamours just a trick of the mind and eyes?

Perhaps glamours are actually exclusively tricks of the mind (not eyes). Perhaps glamours are like jedi mind tricks. The person being galmoured literally tricks your mind into thinking that they are someone else. Because you think they are someone else, your mind adjusts your mental image of them to fit what you know of them. Something similar would occur for the sense of smell, hearing, etc. Mel might be the droid we're looking for....

EDIT: In other words, Ghost acted friendly towards mel because ghost saw, smelt, and heard jon (who happened to be mel)

[Phillip Frye]

I think we're overanalyzing and going off the rails here. Varamyr Sixskins a greenseer? Melisandre a skinchanger? Varamyr more powerful than the Starks? C'mon folks. Get a grip on yourselves.

[Eira Seren]

They'll save them for later when Bran and co get the cave mouth and turn them into killer sheep, rather than a killer rabbit.

And the Monty Python note I was hoping

Jon would tell Karl 'It's just a flesh wound!'

:lol:

Who is playing the Knights Who Say 'Nee!' ? Are these the Singers?

I agree completely. The show ran into what seemed like trouble by having the NW have such low numbers making an attack on the mutineers necessary in order to preserve the secret from Mance. It served though as you say to show Jon off as someone the brothers will follow voluntarily.

Now how 100 men are supposed to keep a large group of wildling from easily over running an unfortified southern attack of Castle Black while at the same time 100,000 are attacking from the north is another story. Even if they stick to the book and have Stannis arrive in the nick of time to destroy the northern attack, the southern attack seems very likely to success regardless of their northern front is attacked or not. Or does the show not stick to the books on the no fortifications bit?

I dunno, especially if it took them all that time to kill only 11 men. Oops, I mean 10, Ghost took out Rast.

This is a very insightful point that never occurred to me.

As you say, the whole business on the show of having an altar surrounded by circular standing stones where transformation of a human baby takes place just reeks of a culture.

GRRM, of course, did not write either of these things into the canon, so you can see he's being consistent with his remark that he didn't know if they have a culture.

Yeah, it's consistent. Still. . .

It is rather funny, if you step back from all the nastiness of human sacrifice and manipulation she employs along the way. Reading back through one of Davos' chapters recently, her reaction to the news that Davos had sent Edric Storm away struck me as rather comic. I mean, you can just hear her putting on the soft, inviting voice of the seductress as she begs Stannis to "give me the boy... I must have the boy... just that one, itty-bitty bastard boy and his king's blood" ...when, right in the middle of this rather embarassing show, Davos takes her completely by surprise with his announcement that Edric Storm has boarded the red-eye to Lys. The chapter says something about "a look of uncertainty" or confusion crossing her face - just two pages after she'd convinced Stannis that she could see the future by predicting Joffrey's death ("Three is three, your Grace.") Later, at the Wall, she spends the end of ASOS and the entirety of AFFC/ADWD in the very presence of another kingsblood bastard (Jon Snow), yet has not a clue that he is right there under her nose - in spire of Red Rahloo practically leaving voicemails to that effect in her nightfires. Clearly, she's hopeless...

Poor Mel, it's a good thing you aren't her biographer :) But I have a feeling you're absoutely right!

So is the general consensus that this is a true story then, that the women of the northernmost kingdoms were procreating with the Others during the Long Night?

The reason I ask is b/c if this story were true, it would seem to suggest that special bloodlines are not required for making "terrible half human children" with the Others. It also appears that it doesn't matter who (Other or human) is the man and who the woman. (human women and male Other, or female 'corpse queen' Other and human Night's King).

Lastly, it seems strange that they require baby sacrifices of Craster, or anyone, when they could just steal his wives (or any number of wildling women) and produce their own offspring...

So basically what I'm trying to say is that if bedding human women is an option, the Others don't in fact require sacrifices in order to make more of themselves. Which seems to go against a lot of pretty solid evidence as well as well thought out theories... hence my attempt to poke holes in Old Nan's tale.

I'm going to go with yes on this. What, or how, it connects to families other than Craster's, I'm not sure.

[Aetta]

I've wondered the same thing. Bloodraven said he's been watching Bran his whole life; presumably he can track anybody he wants, anywhere, and so could have done the same for Varamyr.

And in that case, I would imagine Varamyr was perceived to be in violation of the morals clause of the greenseer contract, and as you say, stamped REJECT.

You mean so they could get easy access to official Stark sperm?

(I'm wondering how they would induce him to pony it up. My guess is the supply of quality porn is not what it might be in the uttermost north.)

On a side note, this is one of the subtly revealed yet most admirable qualities about Lord Hand Bloodraven at Whitewalls-you begin to understand that he has a damn good sense of what is just and right, in spite of the cruel things that are said about him. And that he is not like to allow such immoral behavior to carry on without consequence for too long, because he gives a shit about the Realm, about outcomes, and doesn't hesitate to make sharp decisions.

[alienarea]

I think we're overanalyzing and going off the rails here. Varamyr Sixskins a greenseer? Melisandre a skinchanger? Varamyr more powerful than the Starks? C'mon folks. Get a grip on yourselves.

Agree.

Or Varamyr and Melisandre are secret Starks ...

Just kidding.

[wolfmaid7]

I agree a glamour alone could not possibly have done the trick.

If Mel is a skinchanger (as I think you're suggesting)... hmm. I guess I just struggle with the idea anybody could replace Jon that way, so instantly and easily.

I think maybe there's something else going on there that we just don't understand yet. And that Jon doesn't understand yet.

I recall wolfmaid very astutely pointed out that once, in talking to Jon, Mel started to identify Ghost in an unusual way, as if she perceives some truth about him that we don't, and then stopped herself. This hidden truth, if it exists, might be relevant.

There's certainly that.

But more, if you think of what Bloodraven got Bran to do, to find out "what it means to be a greenseer" -- it was to skinchange not an animal but a weirwood. The implication was that skinchanging is right at the heart of greenseeing and great strength/skill in the one helps determine the capacity to be the other.

Yeah i remember, that whole " There is power in you and your beast"

Ghost in my opinion isn't even a regular Direwolf.Mel definitely sees something but she is keeping that close to the chest. I mean how the frack does no one hear Ghost coming and he doesn't make a sound.Not one peep.I've heard of stealthy animals,but this is really weird.

I think we're overanalyzing and going off the rails here. Varamyr Sixskins a greenseer? Melisandre a skinchanger? Varamyr more powerful than the Starks? C'mon folks. Get a grip on yourselves.

Well put,you crack my ribs. :rofl: