Heresy 113

[King of Winters]

The way we've tended to interpret this in the past is that there were a number of kingdoms of First Men in the North, beyond what's now the Wall. During the Long Night these kingdoms [with the exception of the Thenns] were destroyed and their kings either dead or fled. The first wildlings were the scattered survivors, abandoned by their lords - hence their aversion to kneeling.

The Fist is proof of that. I wonder if what Craster did was common back when the Wall was new and the first Free Folk sacrificed to the WW so they could be allowed to live on that side of the Wall.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

:agree: And very funny way of putting it! :D

It is rather funny, if you step back from all the nastiness of human sacrifice and manipulation she employs along the way. Reading back through one of Davos' chapters recently, her reaction to the news that Davos had sent Edric Storm away struck me as rather comic. I mean, you can just hear her putting on the soft, inviting voice of the seductress as she begs Stannis to "give me the boy... I must have the boy... just that one, itty-bitty bastard boy and his king's blood" ...when, right in the middle of this rather embarassing show, Davos takes her completely by surprise with his announcement that Edric Storm has boarded the red-eye to Lys. The chapter says something about "a look of uncertainty" or confusion crossing her face - just two pages after she'd convinced Stannis that she could see the future by predicting Joffrey's death ("Three is three, your Grace.") Later, at the Wall, she spends the end of ASOS and the entirety of AFFC/ADWD in the very presence of another kingsblood bastard (Jon Snow), yet has not a clue that he is right there under her nose - in spire of Red Rahloo practically leaving voicemails to that effect in her nightfires. Clearly, she's hopeless...

[Melifeather]

This is interesting. How were there Wildlings at all during the Long Night, if the Wall didn't go up until after it was over?

I agree that some of the peoples that later were called wildlings may have already lived in the area now north of the Wall, but I also believe that there were people responsible for breaking the Pact that were forced north of the Wall after it was built. I think the people alive after the Long Night understood that it was a consequence of breaking said Pact. The wildlings are descendants of these pact-breakers.

The way I understood it is that Varamyr first drove Haggon out of his wolf and claimed the wolf for himself and then he killed Haggon and ate his heart. If you lose your familar and are thus denied a second life shouldn't you just die a normal death? Yet Haggon is clearly present in Varamyr's mind.

Just to be clear: I do not believe Varamyr ends up in Jon's head, I just stumbled upon this theory of ats and thought I might share my theory because it connects well with his.

I think hearts (and eating them) play a significant role in the story. You have the Heart of Winter and the Heart Tree and the Burned Heart, I think it is no coincidence that all three major players (cold lot, children, red lot) have their spiritual center connected to or described as a heart. Melisandre has this curious line:

“If that is the will of R’hllor. Night’s powers cannot touch one whose heart is bathed in

god’s holy fire.”

“You heart does not concern me. Just your hands.”

“The heart is all that matters. Do not despair, Lord Snow. Despair is a weapon of the

enemy, whose name may not be spoken. Your sister is not lost to you.”

I am inclined to agree with her.

It's an interesting idea that should be explored, so I don't mean to distract you with my nitpicking over Haggon's death. Being a warg, he had the power to slip his skin and secure a new host for his spirit before dying. But if his spirit was loose when his body died, he would have floated away on the wind like Varamyr did. Varamyr barely had enough time to slip into One Eye before, bam, his body died. When Haggon was forced out of his familiar and his spirit receded back into his body. If he had remained outside his body when Varamyr ate his heart, his spirit could have floated away free before dissolving into nothing. I do think that since it was contained within his body that Varamyr ate his spirit.

Also worth mentioning again just how crammed Castle Black is with flammable "wild card" characters right now. You've got:

- Monster (Craster's last son; White Walker Starter Pack)

- Jon Snow (son of Winterfell; recently murdered Lord Commander of NW)

- Ghost (albino direwolf; property of old gods; possibly warged)

- Borroq and his giant boar (skinchanger; living in the graveyard tombs)

- Patchface (oddball; demon avatar of the drowned god?)

- Shireen Baratheon (greyscale vector; dragondreamer?)

- Val (secret priestess of [c]old gods?)

- Melisandre (pyromaniac; maverick priestess of Red Rahloo)

That looks like a remarkably combustible mix, with Mel a bit overly-inclined to play with matches. And we've already been told that magic is particularly powerful at the Wall...

That is quite a list, and humorously done! Speaking of Shireen...I've theorized before that greyscale is similar to wightification in that it's like a disease that traps the spirit inside the body when it dies. Thus the bodies stumble around with confused spirits inside with ice magic powering the wights and fire magic powering the stone men. As a seeming survivor of greyscale, Shireen's body is half dead, half alive. It'll be interesting to see where her story arc takes her.

[JNR]

The way we've tended to interpret this in the past is that there were a number of kingdoms of First Men in the North, beyond what's now the Wall. During the Long Night these kingdoms [with the exception of the Thenns] were destroyed and their kings either dead or fled. The first wildlings were the scattered survivors, abandoned by their lords - hence their aversion to kneeling.

This is exactly how I see it.

I'd go a bit further and suggest the proto-wildlings, with the memory of the Long Night still very fresh in their minds -- only a few decades back -- would not have perceived everybody south of the Wall as the enemy. Far from it. They would have a very clear idea of the true enemy.

This would neatly explain how Joramun would have collaborated with the Stark to do anything whatever.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Very interesting, another possible question would be the effects on Jon if Mel tries to heal/resurrect him using Monster (thinking he his Mance's son).

I think it's more likely that she might try to sacrifice Shireen to save Jon, and Patchface's response is the one I'm more concerned about in that scenario.

Though I do think Mel's heart could end up setting Jon's sword aflame, much like Nissa Nissa did for Azor Ahai, though in Jon's case it will not be out of love, but out of disdain over the crapstorm she caused.

[Black Crow]

I do think Gilly's son is like a magnet for the White Walkers and he will draw them towards the Wall. The women of Craster's Keep must have had a purpose in mind, as I believe they knew exactly what they were doing.

I'm in two minds about this one. I'm not convinced that the white walkers want him enough to come below the Wall, and although Ser Puddles substituted for Small Paul in the show I think it was an unexpected event, hence Gilly's fear that he could smell the stink of life. I think she was expecting to get a clear run to the Wall.

As to why, I think there are a couple of options, first that he is being planted for a purpose as yet unknown, the second is that Gilly's mother really did want him to get away.

It occurs to me that the injunction to take him somewhere warm may be significant. We've discussed before the business of Adara from The Ice Dragon having Winter inside her, which is why she can interact with Ice, and whether this might be applicable to the Song of Ice and Fire. Is this why Craster's sons are taken? Getting Monster somewhere warm may be necessary to neutralise his having Winter inside him, and it does suggest implications for the Starks - is this why it was so necessary to keep Winterfell warm?

[wolfmaid7]

Can't agree with no. 2 because it would distract from Monster's specialness as the last surviving male of the bloodline although Craster having another daughter about to be born might be more interesting.

As to no. 3, I think that there are only two candidates at the Wall, Monster and Jon Snow. Which do you suppose it will be? Better be patient if it is to be Monster. I don't see them picking some random wildling dude.

Ahhh that there is the issue in how we see this situation,for me it doesn't distract because Monster's uniquness is not derived from him being Craster's "last son".He is unique because he is the son invited South of the Wall and if you go back to the Crones words to Sam on where to take him "someplace warm" they said together.

This is a total guess for me that is Monster is a beacon for "the cold" and Jon unfortunate situation is that he's on death's door.I am reminded that it is Small Paul in the books that appeared in the hut .It was him whom Gilly feared because he stunk of "lnew life" and that little tidbit from V6 when he was in One eye " She sees me" He essentially began a "new life" in his wolf so she saw him.

A beacon to bring it and a vessel to touch.

You are right. I hadn't the first time, but I have now. My instinctual thought is the reason why Varamyr had Hagon's thoughts inside him was because he prevented Haggon from living a second life. Haggon was planning on living his second life in his wolf, but Varamyr slipped inside Haggon's wolf at the time of Haggon's death and prevented his spirit from entering. Next, he killed and ate Haggon's heart before his spirit could float away, so it sounds like Haggon's spirit was stuck inside his body when he died, thus he had no second life.

In Jon's instance, Varamyr was able to slip into his familiar, One Eye and so he is living his second life. Jon would have had to eat Varamyr's heart AND prevented Varamyr from living a second life.

This is essentially what happened yes.Haggon had no place to go except for his dead body.

The way I understood it is that Varamyr first drove Haggon out of his wolf and claimed the wolf for himself and then he killed Haggon and ate his heart. If you lose your familar and are thus denied a second life shouldn't you just die a normal death? Yet Haggon is clearly present in Varamyr's mind.

Just to be clear: I do not believe Varamyr ends up in Jon's head, I just stumbled upon this theory of ats and thought I might share my theory because it connects well with his.

I think hearts (and eating them) play a significant role in the story. You have the Heart of Winter and the Heart Tree and the Burned Heart, I think it is no coincidence that all three major players (cold lot, children, red lot) have their spiritual center connected to or described as a heart. Melisandre has this curious line:

“If that is the will of R’hllor. Night’s powers cannot touch one whose heart is bathed in

god’s holy fire.”

“You heart does not concern me. Just your hands.”

“The heart is all that matters. Do not despair, Lord Snow. Despair is a weapon of the

enemy, whose name may not be spoken. Your sister is not lost to you.”

I am inclined to agree with her.

What Feather said,but to add i disagree Haggon was in V6's mind or an active "shadow" he only thought of Haggon while death was imminent.In fact he was shocked that he was thinking "now that i'm close to death your haunting me" Clearly it was not a regular thing .

But It does remind me of Sam when he was fighting i think Small Pau he heard Jon's voice as clear as day and he countered that thought by saying it can't be Jon because he was probably dead.I think it could be someting that had to do with their proximity to Weirwoods.

This is exactly how I see it.

I'd go a bit further and suggest the proto-wildlings, with the memory of the Long Night still very fresh in their minds -- only a few decades back -- would not have perceived everybody south of the Wall as the enemy. Far from it. They would have a very clear idea of the true enemy.

This would neatly explain how Joramun would have collaborated with the Stark to do anything whatever.

My thought on this as well is that certained people were abandoned North.

[addicted to snow]

I'm still not convinced that Gilly made the Baby-Swap...

1. She was very defiant when she last spoke to Jon...
   
2. Jon admitted that he was unable to distinguish between the babies
   
3. Sam later ponders Maester Amon's revelation of the alleged baby swap & Sam wish he could just muster the courage to ask Gilly about the baby swap & to ask her why she is so very upset, crying, & emotionally unstable, but he does not ask… GRRM did not give the reader confirmation of the baby-swap.
   
4. Mel, having lost Edrick Storm would be keeping a close eye on Mance's son, but she has made no efforts to to interfere - suggesting that perhaps Mance's son is still at the wall.
   

So, in my opinion, the reader has no way of knowing whether or not the baby-swap took place as Jon planned or not. Furthermore, GRRM definitely wants the reader to have doubts about the swap.

[addicted to snow]

Predictions:

-- Sam has the Horn of Winter...

-- The Horn of Winter will eventually be sounded at Horn Hill, Sam's Family Seat which he'll inherit after his father & brother die & the Watch is disbanded.

-- Tormund Giant's Bane will sound the Horn of Winter from Horn Hill on the edge of the Western edge of the Dornish Marches.

-- Sam will inherit 'Heartsbane', a Valyrian Steel longsword not unlike ice who's name is very suggestive.

-- Sam will get tired of Gilly being so aloof & eventually stick her with the pointy end...

[addicted to snow]

It's an interesting idea that should be explored, so I don't mean to distract you with my nitpicking over Haggon's death. Being a warg, he had the power to slip his skin and secure a new host for his spirit before dying. But if his spirit was loose when his body died, he would have floated away on the wind like Varamyr did. Varamyr barely had enough time to slip into One Eye before, bam, his body died. When Haggon was forced out of his familiar and his spirit receded back into his body. If he had remained outside his body when Varamyr ate his heart, his spirit could have floated away free before dissolving into nothing. I do think that since it was contained within his body that Varamyr ate his spirit.

This is not how it works… the heart has nothing to do with it...

Varamyr also robbed Orell of his 2nd life when he stole the eagle… A part of Orell remained inside of Varamyr & Orell's hatred of Jon Snow was influencing Varamyr to hate Jon as well… Note: Varamyr did not have to eat Orell's heart for part of Orell to live on inside of Jon's mind.

So we have seen Varamyr rob two characters of their 2nd lives & both cases the dead Warg/Skinchanger lives on inside of Varamyr...

--

Prediction:

Somehow Varamyr will end up inside of Jon Snow's Head & then Jon will have Ghost, Varamyr, Haggon, & Orell's thoughts living on inside of him… It will make for some interesting writing & it will spark Jon's turn to the dark side...

[Phillip Frye]

I wonder if Mel would burn Monster if she found out he almost was a WW. Or would she try to have him raised to worship Red Rahloo?

All children must be made to worship the Lord of Light! -- Melisandre

[addicted to snow]

What Feather said,but to add i disagree Haggon was in V6's mind or an active "shadow" he only thought of Haggon while death was imminent.In fact he was shocked that he was thinking "now that i'm close to death your haunting me" Clearly it was not a regular thing .

I disagree, I got the impression that Varmyr hearing Haggon's words "Abomination" is a regular occurrence in the life of Varamyr...

--

Eventually those words will be echoing in Jon's head as well

[Phillip Frye]

I'm still not convinced that Gilly made the Baby-Swap...

1. She was very defiant when she last spoke to Jon...

Jon admitted that he was unable to distinguish between the babies

Sam later ponders Maester Amon's revelation of the alleged baby swap & Sam wish he could just muster the courage to ask Gilly about the baby swap & to ask her why she is so very upset, crying, & emotionally unstable, but he does not ask… GRRM did not give the reader confirmation of the baby-swap.

Mel, having lost Edrick Storm would be keeping a close eye on Mance's son, but she has made no efforts to to interfere - suggesting that perhaps Mance's son is still at the wall.

So, in my opinion, the reader has no way of knowing whether or not the baby-swap took place as Jon planned or not. Furthermore, GRRM definitely wants the reader to have doubts about the swap.

I don't discount this. You may very well be right. However, as a matter of nomenclature, I think that we should still refer to the baby at the Wall as Monster, or No. 100, and the baby in Oldtown as little Aemon Tarly.

[Phillip Frye]

Predictions:

-- Sam has the Horn of Winter...

-- The Horn of Winter will eventually be sounded at Horn Hill, Sam's Family Seat which he'll inherit after his father & brother die & the Watch is disbanded.

-- Tormund Giant's Bane will sound the Horn of Winter from Horn Hill on the edge of the Western edge of the Dornish Marches.

-- Sam will inherit 'Heartsbane', a Valyrian Steel longsword not unlike ice who's name is very suggestive.

-- Sam will get tired of Gilly being so aloof & eventually stick her with the pointy end...

Each is exponentially less likely than the prediction that precedes it.

[wolfmaid7]

This is not how it works… the heart has nothing to do with it...

Varamyr also robbed Orell of his 2nd life when he stole the eagle… A part of Orell remained inside of Varamyr & Orell's hatred of Jon Snow was influencing Varamyr to hate Jon as well… Note: Varamyr did not have to eat Orell's heart for part of Orell to live on inside of Jon's mind.

So we have seen Varamyr rob two characters of their 2nd lives & both cases the dead Warg/Skinchanger lives on inside of Varamyr...

--

Prediction:

Somehow Varamyr will end up inside of Jon Snow's Head & then Jon will have Ghost, Varamyr, Haggon, & Orell's thoughts living on inside of him… It will make for some interesting writing & it will spark Jon's turn to the dark side...

Varamyr did not rob Orell of his second life,he was not expelled from his Eagle V6 just took up residence. He took Orell's eagle,but he did not rob Orell of that life.Much like we can't say Bran robbed the girl in the Crow her life.She was already living it.Same way Orell was having his.

I disagree, I got the impression that Varmyr hearing Haggon's words "Abomination" is a regular occurrence in the life of Varamyr...

--

Eventually those words will be echoing in Jon's head as well

Your impression is noted,but alas it is not what V6 said.He made it crystal clear that in his dying state Haggon's words began to echo in his mind.That is the text,it doesn't call for inference it is what v6 said he experianced.

[Melifeather]

I'm in two minds about this one. I'm not convinced that the white walkers want him enough to come below the Wall, and although Ser Puddles substituted for Small Paul in the show I think it was an unexpected event, hence Gilly's fear that he could smell the stink of life. I think she was expecting to get a clear run to the Wall.

As to why, I think there are a couple of options, first that he is being planted for a purpose as yet unknown, the second is that Gilly's mother really did want him to get away.

It occurs to me that the injunction to take him somewhere warm may be significant. We've discussed before the business of Adara from The Ice Dragon having Winter inside her, which is why she can interact with Ice, and whether this might be applicable to the Song of Ice and Fire. Is this why Craster's sons are taken? Getting Monster somewhere warm may be necessary to neutralise his having Winter inside him, and it does suggest implications for the Starks - is this why it was so necessary to keep Winterfell warm?

I too have wondered about the hot springs circulating through Winterfell's walls. Is it more than economical and handy heating, or an extra layer of protection? That is the million dollar question, isn't it? It's sort of like not feeding the gremlins after midnight and not getting them wet.

I'm still not convinced that Gilly made the Baby-Swap...

1. She was very defiant when she last spoke to Jon...

Jon admitted that he was unable to distinguish between the babies

Sam later ponders Maester Amon's revelation of the alleged baby swap & Sam wish he could just muster the courage to ask Gilly about the baby swap & to ask her why she is so very upset, crying, & emotionally unstable, but he does not ask… GRRM did not give the reader confirmation of the baby-swap.

Mel, having lost Edrick Storm would be keeping a close eye on Mance's son, but she has made no efforts to to interfere - suggesting that perhaps Mance's son is still at the wall.

So, in my opinion, the reader has no way of knowing whether or not the baby-swap took place as Jon planned or not. Furthermore, GRRM definitely wants the reader to have doubts about the swap.

Gilly's baby was smaller and quieter, while Mance's son was larger and a lusty cryer. The baby on the ship cried and cried, and since Sam didn't know about the swap until they were on the ship, why should Gilly put on a show for Sam when together in private? I feel confident that the switch happened.

This is not how it works… the heart has nothing to do with it...

Varamyr also robbed Orell of his 2nd life when he stole the eagle… A part of Orell remained inside of Varamyr & Orell's hatred of Jon Snow was influencing Varamyr to hate Jon as well… Note: Varamyr did not have to eat Orell's heart for part of Orell to live on inside of Jon's mind.

So we have seen Varamyr rob two characters of their 2nd lives & both cases the dead Warg/Skinchanger lives on inside of Varamyr...

--

Prediction:

Somehow Varamyr will end up inside of Jon Snow's Head & then Jon will have Ghost, Varamyr, Haggon, & Orell's thoughts living on inside of him… It will make for some interesting writing & it will spark Jon's turn to the dark side...

I do not recall Varamyr stealing Orell's second life. I would like to see textural evidence of this. Orell was in the the eagle and that's how Varamyr felt how angry he was, but he was in the background since he was becoming part of the eagle. When Varamyr was not in the eagle, he did not continue to feel Orell. The evidence presented earlier was to say that Varamyr did, however continue to feel Haggon and that might be due to him eating his heart.

[Black Crow]

Varamyr did not rob Orell of his second life,he was not expelled from his Eagle V6 just took up residence. He took Orell's eagle,but he did not rob Orell of that life.Much like we can't say Bran robbed the girl in the Crow her life.She was already living it.Same way Orell was having his.

:agree:

It wasn't Orell's eagle any more. When Bran was getting his flying lesson Bloodraven told him that it was easier to skinchange into a bird that had been ridden before, thus Varamyr found it easy to take over the eagle and there found Orell's shadow, but Orell wasn't controlling the eagle, just as Varamyr is aboard One-eye but no longer controlling him

[Frey family reunion]

I do not recall Varamyr stealing Orell's second life. I would like to see textural evidence of this. Orell was in the the eagle and that's how Varamyr felt how angry he was, but he was in the background since he was becoming part of the eagle. When Varamyr was not in the eagle, he did not continue to feel Orell. The evidence presented earlier was to say that Varamyr did, however continue to feel Haggon and that might be due to him eating his heart.

In ASOS Varamyr tells Jon

"Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him," he said in a soft voice. "Once a beast's been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you. And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes.

ETA: but remember, Orell's body was destroyed, it was consumed by the shadowcats after Jon killed him and dumped him into the canyon.

[Frey family reunion]

:agree:

It wasn't Orell's eagle any more. When Bran was getting his flying lesson Bloodraven told him that it was easier to skinchange into a bird that had been ridden before, thus Varamyr found it easy to take over the eagle and there found Orell's shadow, but Orell wasn't controlling the eagle, just as Varamyr is aboard One-eye but no longer controlling him

Orell wasn't controlling the eagle but his hatred for Jon sure did influence the eagle's actions.

[addicted to snow]

Gilly's baby was smaller and quieter, while Mance's son was larger and a lusty cryer. The baby on the ship cried and cried, and since Sam didn't know about the swap until they were on the ship, why should Gilly put on a show for Sam when together in private? I feel confident that the switch happened.

The Baby left at Castle Black was notorious for crying as well… As the queen points out...