Nitpick With Impunity: Goat Edition

[Tormund GiantsMANE]

Exactly! And I don't think it's logical or realistic at all to just leave Theon because he says he doesn't want to go. I think it would be more logical to kill Ramsey, the dogs, etc. (and, yes, they certainly could have - Ramsey wasn't even armored!) and take Theon out of that very obviously horrible situation and then worry about getting him, hopefully, back to his senses. In my opinion, that scene was just horrible in basically every way and showing the audience that Theon was truly "becoming" Reek could have been done much better.

Damn! That felt good to write! :)

But you have a problem with people nitpicking this scene's poor editing? The sequence of events does make it seem as if the Ironborn fled because Ramsay released his dogs.

Yeah logic dictates that they weren't running solely because of the dogs, but it literally cuts from Ramsay asking how fast they can run and going to unlock the cage, to the Ironborn running back to their ships. Interpreting that as the IB running due the dogs isn't a dumb line of thought.

It's not totally dumb to think that the dogs are a contributing factor, but Theon not wanting to come, the castle alarms being sounded, and the fact that they could not be taken prisoner are other contributing factors that some nitpickers want to ignore. I'd agree with most that the scene was poorly executed, but I got the sense that their mission(rescue Theon) was a wash and they had to get outta there. Think of those bank robber movies. Those guys are tooled up, body armored up and all that, but they really don't wanna get into a shootout with police. They wanna get in, get the money and get out in 2 minutes or whatever. Hell sometimes the guys in the movies even leave money/valuables behind because of their timetable. It's not the same exactly, but this was an extraction, once you realize you have nothing to extract why dawdle and converse with the bloodlusty bastard of bolton.

[Tormund GiantsMANE]

I'm Tywin Lannister…I'm this really smart guy with lots of money who's in charge of an entire continent and someone just murdered my grandson who I plotted for years to make king…but instead of thinking someone with something to gain poisoned the king, I'm just going to think my son did it…

Dany should have invaded yesterday.

As hand of the King,Grandsire to the King and father of the queen regent, I think Tywin would find himself in a stickier situation than he's accustomed to if he were to point the finger at anyone but the most obvious suspect at the time. Can you imagine the scene when Cersei calls for Tyrion (cup in hand) to be apprehended and out of the blue Tywin says "naaaaaah, grab that shriveled old lady....and someone find me Baelish". Also give the conspirators a little credit for laying out a really good plan. Some readers and viewers didn't know who was at fault until the reveal on screen. BTW conspirators have a commanding lead over the whistleblowers in Westeros.

[Fantasy Character]

I'm Tywin Lannister…I'm this really smart guy with lots of money who's in charge of an entire continent and someone just murdered my grandson who I plotted for years to make king…but instead of thinking someone with something to gain poisoned the king, I'm just going to think my son did it…

Dany should have invaded yesterday.

Hahaha, this is pretty on. I really like Charles Dance's portrayal of Tywin, but him laughing at the dwarves jousting at the wedding feast and this automatic assumption that Tyrion is guilty are nagging at me. Did Book Tywin think Tyrion did it? I got the impression we didn't know/he didn't care.

In the show, he balls out says to Jaime: "He killed his king!" Rly, Tywin?

[Stormland's Fury]

In the show, he balls out says to Jaime: "He killed his king!" Rly, Tywin?

Because Cersei said so :P

[Fantasy Character]

Davos's hand

I may have been reading wrong, but I always thought losing the first joint of every finger of Davos's right hand meant cutting off the last bone of each finger, the distal phalanges. (Yakuza style!) He makes that joke about Stannis giving him 5 fewer fingernails to clean.

Cutting off two bones seems much closer to just losing yer hand. You basically have a palm at that point. You can slap people with it, but you can't even grip or pick up anything. I can pick up my phone without using my fingertips; I can't without using the top two thirds of my fingers.

[Stormland's Fury]

Davos's hand

I may have been reading wrong, but I always thought losing the first joint of every finger of Davos's right hand meant cutting off the last bone of each finger, the distal phalanges. (Yakuza style!) He makes that joke about Stannis giving him 5 fewer fingernails to clean.

Cutting off two bones seems much closer to just losing yer hand. You basically have a palm at that point. You can slap people with it, but you can't even grip or pick up anything. I can pick up my phone without using my fingertips; I can't without using the top two thirds of my fingers.

He still has his whole thumb which could help, but otherwise I agree.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Eveyone keeps saying the Iron Born ran because of dogs.

I think people are deliberately misinterpreting what actually happened.

They ran because Theon is now Reek, and fuck fighting loads of people, and their dogs, for Reek. Seems simple enough to me.

Also... People saying the Iron Born would have just thrown an axe at Ramsey. Yeah, in the book they would. But this isn't the book. Has it even been mentioned that they are awdsome at throwing axes? I don't think so. It's not canon in the show.

People see something to complain about and just go for it without really examining what they are whinging about before hand.

First off:

"Give me my brother and no more of your men will die."

That's the last thing we heard from Yara before fleeing. What changed other than Ramsay releasing the hounds?

Second off:

"They skinned our countrymen, and they mutilated my brother, your prince. Your prince! Everything they've done to him they've also done to you. As long as they can hurt our prince with impunity the word Ironborn means nothing."

Apparently it means nothing.

Third off:

The idea that Yara (1) instantly decided that Theon was permanently "lost" during the heat of a battle, (2) felt no need to put him out of his misery, and (3) felt no need to punish his tormenter is simply moronic. No one has any idea whether the damage to his psyche is irreparable, and the only way to find out would be to rescue him and return him to normalcy - something Yara was entirely intent on doing right up until Ramsey pulled out the key.

Not to mention, the sequence began with a sentry catching an axe to the head so....

I'm not sure why you think your non-deliberate misinterpretation of the scene is inherently superior to everyone else's, but it's not.

[Prince of the North]

It's not totally dumb to think that the dogs are a contributing factor, but Theon not wanting to come, the castle alarms being sounded, and the fact that they could not be taken prisoner are other contributing factors that some nitpickers want to ignore. I'd agree with most that the scene was poorly executed, but I got the sense that their mission(rescue Theon) was a wash and they had to get outta there. Think of those bank robber movies. Those guys are tooled up, body armored up and all that, but they really don't wanna get into a shootout with police. They wanna get in, get the money and get out in 2 minutes or whatever. Hell sometimes the guys in the movies even leave money/valuables behind because of their timetable. It's not the same exactly, but this was an extraction, once you realize you have nothing to extract why dawdle and converse with the bloodlusty bastard of bolton.

I see where you are coming from but, really, why is Theon's permission needed in order for them to be able to "extract" him? They could have simply taken him. I mean, his reaction at the suggestion of leaving makes it painfully obvious that he's completely terrified of Ramsey and they should just get him the hell outta there and away from his influence. And, they did have the numbers to do it. Elsewise they wouldn't have been able to escape in any case but they did. Also, shirtless Ramsey ass-kicking whirling dervish was laughable.

[Tormund GiantsMANE]

I see where you are coming from but, really, why is Theon's permission needed in order for them to be able to "extract" him? They could have simply taken him. I mean, his reaction at the suggestion of leaving makes it painfully obvious that he's completely terrified of Ramsey and they should just get him the hell outta there and away from his influence. And, they did have the numbers to do it. Elsewise they wouldn't have been able to escape in any case but they did. Also, shirtless Ramsey ass-kicking whirling dervish was laughable.

he didn't just push out his bottom lip,stomp his foot and say "I'm not going!" He was literally fighting her off. If someone mailed me my brother's dick in a box the last thing I'd expect is for him to fight me. Yara's a good leader and a strong warrior, but I dunno if she's the most pragmatic thinker.I acknowledged the poor execution, but I saw what they were trying to convey, even if it ended up being a bungled excuse to get her away from Pyke for a few episodes to set up a rude awakening.

[Prince of the North]

he didn't just push out his bottom lip,stomp his foot and say "I'm not going!" He was literally fighting her off. If someone mailed me my brother's dick in a box the last thing I'd expect is for him to fight me. Yara's a good leader and a strong warrior, but I dunno if she's the most pragmatic thinker.I acknowledged the poor execution, but I saw what they were trying to convey, even if it ended up being a bungled excuse to get her away from Pyke for a few episodes to set up a rude awakening.

I largely agree with you here with the caveat that, of course, they easily could have bodily dragged him from the scene had they wanted to.

[Le Cygne]

The idea that Yara (1) instantly decided that Theon was permanently "lost" during the heat of a battle, (2) felt no need to put him out of his misery, and (3) felt no need to punish his tormenter is simply moronic. No one has any idea whether the damage to his psyche is irreparable, and the only way to find out would be to rescue him and return him to normalcy - something Yara was entirely intent on doing right up until Ramsey pulled out the key.

Yeah, she would have done a mercy killing, if she really thought that.

[Le Cygne]

But you have a problem with people nitpicking this scene's poor editing? The sequence of events does make it seem as if the Ironborn fled because Ramsay released his dogs.

Yeah logic dictates that they weren't running solely because of the dogs, but it literally cuts from Ramsay asking how fast they can run and going to unlock the cage, to the Ironborn running back to their ships. Interpreting that as the IB running due the dogs isn't a dumb line of thought.

Agreed. If they wanted a scene to play a certain way, and it doesn't, and you have to think of the books and what they've said to make sense of it, it wasn't done well. It's not a big deal, it is what it is.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

First off:

"Give me my brother and no more of your men will die."

That's the last thing we heard from Yara before fleeing. What changed other than Ramsay releasing the hounds?

Second off:

"They skinned our countrymen, and they mutilated my brother, your prince. Your prince! Everything they've done to him they've also done to you. As long as they can hurt our prince with impunity the word Ironborn means nothing."

Apparently it means nothing.

Third off:

The idea that Yara (1) instantly decided that Theon was permanently "lost" during the heat of a battle, (2) felt no need to put him out of his misery, and (3) felt no need to punish his tormenter is simply moronic. No one has any idea whether the damage to his psyche is irreparable, and the only way to find out would be to rescue him and return him to normalcy - something Yara was entirely intent on doing right up until Ramsey pulled out the key.

Not to mention, the sequence began with a sentry catching an axe to the head so....

I'm not sure why you think your non-deliberate misinterpretation of the scene is inherently superior to everyone else's, but it's not.

I don't think it's "better" lol

[The Prince of Newcastle]

I didn't think the scene was well done. I thought it was poorly done tbh.

But they didn't run away because of the dogs. The heist was a write off by that point. Why waste more men on a lost cause?

Scene could have shown that better though I agree.

[PatrickStormborn]

I didn't think the scene was well done. I thought it was poorly done tbh.

But they didn't run away because of the dogs. The heist was a write off by that point. Why waste more men on a lost cause?

Scene could have shown that better though I agree.

Are you seriously defending this trash? Ramsay was SHIRTLESS, and Yara's first kill in the scene was with a throwing axe. But she didn't think to just... throw her axe at Ramsay?? It was embarrassing to watch.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

It wasn't the best I have said that.

I just think people are saying "omg dogs lol" when, as badly made as it was, the scene clearly should more than that.

[Tormund GiantsMANE]

.....and it's dogs and soldiers/guards. They "fought" to a push basically man on man, how long would they have held out against them with a pack of trained to kill mastiffs sic'd on them? Reinforcements were on the way too. Ramsay is obviously The Most Dangerous Man in Westeros (sorry Darkstar)....the jig was up. She took her fastest ship and 50 of her best, all willing to pay the iron price for Theon's freedom. Theon on the other hand showed his sister he was willing to pay the iron price to remain Reek. However shortsighted her assessment of his mental damage was, you can't help anyone if you become a victim yourself, and dreadfort men were about to be pouring into the kennels.

[Le Cygne]

It takes two seconds to slit Theon's throat. He's the reason she came. If she left because he wasn't Theon anymore, putting him out of his misery would have been of the utmost importance. If she didn't leave because of the dogs, don't show the damn dogs. Or, if she left because of the dogs and not because Theon is not Theon, then don't say he's not Theon.

[Tormund GiantsMANE]

do those things have to be mutually exclusive? The presence of guards, and hunting dogs (no cocker spaniels here) in addition to the inability to secure the package could be the two factors that convince her that things have turned completely pear shaped. She asks for Theon before the whole dogs comment from Ramsay, so she's not in proximity to become a kinslayer and slit her brother's throat. I wonder how well that would have went over with the men who sailed and fought next to men who died for the purpose of saving Theon. Would they understand? Would they hold it against her? Would she go down as a kinslayer? Putting him out of his misery isn't of the utmost importance. She went to save him because he was a prisoner. When she presented him with freedom, he fought her to stay. I wonder if Ramsay woulda let them outrace the dogs if she killed his Reek.

[Le Cygne]

What they showed was obviously confusing to viewers. So you take away the unnecessary element that is adding to the confusion, and it becomes more clear. Pick a message you want to leave the viewer with, and go with it.