Can a Jon Snow + Daenerys romance work in the final book? Part 2

[wefollowthecomet]

Subtly yes he does you see it plainly in the women he come in contact with you see what he finds attractive and a woman like Dany aint it.Lets take into consideration Ygritte and Val there is a danger to them that he is drawn to.To put simply women that could cut your throat while you slept.He's not just attracted to strong women he's attracted to women that could kill him.There is even an attraction to Mel,when you read between the lines that air of danger is about her as well and it peaks his interest.

Dany is plenty dangerous, arguably the most dangerous woman in ASoIaF

[Anythingatall]

I dislike the idea but only because of my aversion to cliche. When I think about it properly I doubt GRRM would suddenly go all Twilight on us and write some naff teenybopper love story. If they do fall for each other I imagine it would work as it would have been planned from the start.

As others have said I don't think we can really gauge how either of them will react to each other. One thing I do find a little interesting is the JorahJoer connection and if/how this will affect Dany and Jons relationship (romantic or otherwise).

Random half formed Crackpot - Could Longclaw have some significance as a metaphor? If Jon meets Jorah will he offer him the sword only for Jorah to decline because 'it doesn't matter that it was my Fathers, the person who has earned it/can use it best should have it". This could work as a metaphor for the iron throne for either character. That the line of succession doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things.

They're both like fifteen. Their interests aren't exactly set in stone forever. Unless you all like the same crushes from teenage days. :D

My 15 year old crush is now very active in far right "politics" (I use quotation marks because I doubt he can spell politics).

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

I can't see dany's arch ending in anything but tragedy, sadly. I think it's likelier that Jon and Sansa end up together, with grrm's initial synopsis (I guess that Arya was split into sansa and arya?) And the 5th suitor theory.

GRRM's original outline means nothing. In that outline Tyrion and Jaime were equals and Cersie didnt exist. Jaime became King by killing the rest of his family.

There were 3 books now there are 7.

He has obviously made huge changes since that time.

[The Mother of The Others]

Tyrion is the only major character capable of overcoming a barren womb. You could resort to a woods witch, but that's not climactic enough. So Daenerys would have to compromise: she'd get Jon as a trophy husband and Tyrion would foist his physics-defying Usurper Seed upon her to help produce her heir. Tyrion would have jokes such as looking over at Jon and asking, "Is today the day? [for the two of us to give it a go] No? Well, whenever you're ready."

But of course Daenerys isn't really barren, so all of this is moot and Tyrion won't be required to alter Daenerys' vaginal fate. There will either be a blood-of-the-dragon solution (successfully producing an heir by willing it, "coincidentally" in conjunction with just the right magical formula), or her recent dragon-rebooting experience in the East has already fixed any womb concerns she had, or there never were any health issues and Mirri was full of BS, or we'll see the tragic (for some) solution to this heir problem when Daeny dies before/during the invasion plot. So I doubt Jon and Danny would be stressed by the lack of an heir for long. They'd be stressed by other stuff.

[LordStoneheart]

I dislike the idea but only because of my aversion to cliche. When I think about it properly I doubt GRRM would suddenly go all Twilight on us and write some naff teenybopper love story. If they do fall for each other I imagine it would work as it would have been planned from the start.

As others have said I don't think we can really gauge how either of them will react to each other. One thing I do find a little interesting is the JorahJoer connection and if/how this will affect Dany and Jons relationship (romantic or otherwise).

Why does it have to be a cliche or a teenybopper love story? Why can't it be a miserable marriage like Stannis and Selyse have?

My 15 year old crush is now very active in far right "politics" (I use quotation marks because I doubt he can spell politics).

But do you still like him? :P

[matchesmcfly]

GRRM's original outline means nothing. In that outline Tyrion and Jaime were equals and Cersie didnt exist. Jaime became King by killing the rest of his family.

There were 3 books now there are 7.

He has obviously made huge changes since that time.

yes because you say so. there are still elements of the original outline within the series so saying it "means nothing" means nothing to me. i'll take what the actually creator of the story has done so far over what some rando online thinks.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

yes because you say so. there are still elements of the original outline within the series so saying it "means nothing" means nothing to me. i'll take what the actually creator of the story has done so far over what some rando online thinks.

lol, I am sorry that I don't meet your level of expertise.

Did you come her to discuss the books or just tells us what the answers are?

[COYStars]

There's no reason they couldn't get it together if the story was endless.

But meeting and getting romantically involved within the space of two books, with a whole load of other things going on at the same time? If it happened, it would be awful writing imho. And corny as hell.

I'm fine with the idea of, say, Faramir and Eowyn getting it on. But the two leading Targ heirs to the throne just happening to fall in love with each other at first sight? It would have to happen front-and-centre in the story, too. We just don't have time for that kind of late distraction.

I can't see it. And I know I'd hate it if it did happen. I worry that this is one of the issues that GRRM is grappling with, that his ending requires the two of them to fall in love and it's getting harder and harder to do this with integrity.

[COYStars]

Why does it have to be a cliche or a teenybopper love story? Why can't it be a miserable marriage like Stannis and Selyse have?

Because they hardly have time to flirt, let alone to flirt, court, marry and then fall out. At best, we'd be ending the last book with their wedding. And even that would be a whirlwind romance.

[MoIaF]

I just want to remind those who say that there isn't enough time that Jon's relationship with Ygritte took about 6 chapters and they were only involved for about 4 of them.

Time is not a problem.

[COYStars]

I just want to remind those who say that there isn't enough time that Jon's relationship with Ygritte took about 6 chapters and they were only involved for about 4 of them.

Time is not a problem.

Absolutely. And that was fine, because it was part of a story flow, could have happened at any time, animal attraction with a random girl.

Dany and Jon to meet, flirt a bit and become an item within a few chapters? No thanks.

[MoIaF]

Oh and from the time Dany met Drogon to the time she made him "fall in love with her" it took 3 chapters.

Absolutely. And that was fine, because it was part of a story flow, could have happened at any time, animal attraction with a random girl.

Dany and Jon to meet, flirt a bit and become an item within a few chapters? No thanks.

They are two POV characters they'll be sharing a lot of "screen time". It can be done and quite easily.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Drogo-Dany is a successful, well written romance?

I'm pretty sure we were meant to be deeply disturbed and confused by it. He was raping her. What part of her crying at night is a beautiful romantic interlude?

[MoIaF]

Whatever we may think of it, Dany loved Khal Drogo and still considers him her Sun and Starks, calls hm that when she's having her Vision Quest in the Dothraki sea.

To add to that GRRM himself has called it a great romance. I have my issues with it but that's what he wrote.

[The Man from Nowhere]

In many ways Jon and Danny have grew up in the same familiar environment. Both outcasts, both feel alone, both want to make a difference, both leaders who have made mistakes, both have had lovers who tragically died (like they both killed their lovers).

In my opinion one stays down to earth, the other not so much. Nevertheless I'm not sure whether I'd like a pairing but I think it's definately possible. If not they may be enemies, but I think both of them want to be righteous and do the right thing so they could make a great team.

[The Mother of The Others]

Drogo-Dany is a successful, well written romance?

The answer is yes. Every couple faces hurdles. This romance featured an arranged marriage into a foreign culture of boinking on demand, including the cultural misunderstanding of "Wait, there's no whining??!!?" And then the tears they turns to depression, to resolve, to toughness, to ignition of newfound purpose, then into laughter and that new culture's form of equality and mutual respect, and then it reverted back to tears. They danced The Dance Uncompromising and drank deep from the cup of peak experience and full living as full partners. These are the romance elements one can choose to de-emphasize in favor of "Stop! Something icky happened first." It's the same book either way we look at it, or even if we see both.

-

The fairy tale aspect of Jon & Daenerys may be mitigated somewhat by how it never comes out that Jon "deserved" to be her partner by birth. He may just earn it outright through blood sweat and tears, the way Fame is supposed to be payed for (by television dance academy kids in the 80's.)

[ShadowCat Rivers]

If the question is whether it can be written in a way that has an organic relationship with the rest of the story and the respective POVs character developement then yes, I suppose the author can do it, if that's what he wants to write, time and page space won't be a problem.

The writing can be a problem though, just a look at Dany/Drogo controversy to get the idea: most people (by my estimation) don't like it, just accept it and move on. That's not so successful if it's supposed to be a (the?) "central" romance of the series, meaning that it "should" be emotionally rewarding.

The later, however, is almost entirely subjective to each reader, and depends on many things, expectations and character preferences included. In that sense it's certain that for some will work even if it's a literary meh and for others it won't even if the idea is perfectly executed.

Personally I find the pairing uninspiring, but who knows, on page it might even be written to feel good.

[AllOfTheHours]

Oh and from the time Dany met Drogon to the time she made him "fall in love with her" it took 3 chapters.

They are two POV characters they'll be sharing a lot of "screen time". It can be done and quite easily.

I agree with what you're saying about pace, but I'm still conflicted. In the cases of Jon/Ygriette and Drogo/Dany, the pressure for them to have sex was a big thing in their chapters. Jon had to have sex with Ygriette or Mance and the other wildling would kill him. Dany is in a forced marriage. Neither are able to choose who they have sex with, and in ASoIaF forced sex = love 90% of the time.

As for Jon and Dany, they have a lot of stuff keeping them apart at the moment - Dany despises the Starks and all the "Usurper's Dogs," Dany is still married and also in love with Daario, Jon is still sworn to celibacy, Jon is a bastard (until R+L=J), and they are both still on different continents etc. So, GRRM would have to move a lot of pieces around in tWoW for them to even meet. Then he has to deal with the obstacles I mentioned in a realistic/natural way along with resolving Dany's invasion and a war with the Others.

Could Jon and Dany fall in love at first sight or be put in a forced sexual relationship? Sure, especially if they are both Targs. But I just feel like they have too much other stuff going on in their stories. Maybe after tWoW comes out, I'll feel completely differently based on how GRRM moves their stories along. But now, although I believe it is possible, as things stand at the end of ADWD, for me, full out Jon/Dany in the next two books would be a bit clunky and contrived. But that's just my opinion.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

The answer is yes. Every couple faces hurdles. This romance featured an arranged marriage into a foreign culture of boinking on demand, including the cultural misunderstanding of "Wait, there's no whining??!!?" And then the tears they turns to depression, to resolve, to toughness, to ignition of newfound purpose, then into laughter and that new culture's form of equality and mutual respect, and then it reverted back to tears. They danced The Dance Uncompromising and drank deep from the cup of peak experience and full living as full partners. These are the romance elements one can choose to de-emphasize in favor of "Stop! Something icky happened first." It's the same book either way we look at it, or even if we see both.

-

The fairy tale aspect of Jon & Daenerys may be mitigated somewhat by how it never comes out that Jon "deserved" to be her partner by birth. He may just earn it outright through blood sweat and tears, the way Fame is supposed to be payed for (by television dance academy kids in the 80's.)

That just read as 'How I learned to chill out and love my rapist' to be honest. Its not 'something icky' its severe repeated sexual assault. That has nothing to do with arranged marriage, it has to do with Drogo being a grotesque savage. Her feeling towards him are psychologically bizarre.

Deserved by birth? What does that even mean? Its definitely not something Jon would buy into, how is Dany more 'deserving' than Ygritte?

I agree with what you're saying about pace, but I'm still conflicted. In the cases of Jon/Ygriette and Drogo/Dany, the pressure for them to have sex was a big thing in their chapters. Jon had to have sex with Ygriette or Mance and the other wildling would kill him. Dany is in a forced marriage. Neither are able to choose who they have sex with, and in ASoIaF forced sex = love 90% of the time.

As for Jon and Dany, they have a lot of stuff keeping them apart at the moment - Dany despises the Starks and all the "Usurper's Dogs," Dany is still married and also in love with Daario, Jon is still sworn to celibacy, Jon is a bastard (until R+L=J), and they are both still on different continents etc. So, GRRM would have to move a lot of pieces around in tWoW for them to even meet. Then he has to deal with the obstacles I mentioned in a realistic/natural way along with resolving Dany's invasion and a war with the Others.

Could Jon and Dany fall in love at first sight or be put in a forced sexual relationship? Sure, especially if they are both Targs. But I just feel like they have too much other stuff going on in their stories. Maybe after tWoW comes out, I'll feel completely differently based on how GRRM moves their stories along. But now, although I believe it is possible, as things stand at the end of ADWD, for me, full out Jon/Dany in the next two books would be a bit clunky and contrived. But that's just my opinion.

We know Dany won't make it to Westeros until at least the end of Winds. She has to land there, get a foothold, take Kings Landing from Aegon and then move North to the Wall. Jon meanwhile will likely be alive and back to some sort of himself by the end of Winds, the Wall may have fallen. He's going to have to regroup his family in Winterfell, deal with what is left of the Watch and the wildings, send out the word to the rest of Westeros, make a plan to defeat the Others, defeat the Others, and then sort out what happens to the Kingdoms next. Its possible they will not meet until half way through ADOS if Aegon isn't gone by the end of Winds. I dread that Winds is just Dany is Vaes Dothrak and cleaning up Mereen.

Also remember, our POVs have ballooned since AGOT. Dany was all by herself in that book and the only POV there. GRRM has to merge POVs from 2 huge novels to 1. That means half of them can go but that also means Dany's story can be split between her and Tyrion. That will be interesting.

[Anythingatall]

Why does it have to be a cliche or a teenybopper love story? Why can't it be a miserable marriage like Stannis and Selyse have?

Sure I think that's a possibility. The title asks about romance specifically and it's hard for my mind not to go to the Twilight* place when they are both so special. Like I said though with a seconds more reflection I have faith in GRRM when it comes to the broad strokes.

*I have never read or watched Twilight. So perhaps it is a well written romance.

But do you still like him? :P

Ha, nooooo.