Can a Jon Snow + Daenerys romance work in the final book? Part 2

[Sigbjorn]

If Jon really is AA, and Dany inherits the Targaryan madness, AND she conquers Westeros, maybe the series ends with Jon falling in love, but then killing her.to stop a tyrant from claiming the throne. It would bring the AA prophecy full circle, subvert the usual fantasy tropes, and continue Jon's path of doing what he feels is right, whatever the consequence.

...I doubt this will happen, but you never know.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

What do you think about it?

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/showbiz/431543/Game-of-Thrones-Kit-Harington-hints-at-Daenerys-romance

I don't understand: he hints on Jon/Dany romance in the begining, but says that Jon is one-woman man later. Or does he think that romantic relationships impossible for Jon this season?

Kit Harington knows nothing. There were a lot of those types of leading questions because the actors can't say anything. Kit is giving his opinion on how he thinks a meeting would go, 'hate-sex' seems to be it. The Express is a tabloid who has spun it into something of a scoop. Its just Kit making uninformed soundbites. We know there will be no meeting in series 5.

Kit also thinks Jon only gets it up for redheads which is nonsense.

[lidsa]

subvert the usual fantasy tropes

Only it doesn't subvert any trope at all. The hero killing his heroine for love/for the greater good/for honour is practically an uber trope.

[The Mother of The Others]

I like to subvert these tropes by not talking about them. Awareness of tropes stands out as the biggest challenge we face as a society. The return to ignorance is the only way to ensure you'll be happy with the finale. So I'm already there. All the way.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I don't think so. I still think they fight.

[sweetsunray]

Well, I think they certainly will meet and it will certainly spark irritation and preconceived notions of each other that will make them dislike each other: Stark-Targ; Bastard LC of the NW-IT Queen, couldn't care about titles-too many titles, etc. But then out of necessity they will have to set their dislikes aside and cooperate anyway to save the realm. It is possible for them to deveop an attraction and appreciation despite their preconceptions about each other: she does care about the smallfolk; he ain't shallow like Daario. At the same time their irritations could even fuel the attraction. While the incest discussion is interesting, I don't think it necessarily foreshadows Jon not falling for Dany. I don't think he'll know his parentage when they meet and interact and fight together. I don't think she'll know his parentage. To her, he'll be a bastard of the Usurper Dog Stark and become a valuable commander of the NW. He'll consider himself a bastard who has no chance in hell with a queen. But if they do hook up, that's when they might find out about the kinship, most probably towards the end of the series, and that would be bittersweet to them both, each for their personal reasons. She'd consider him having perhaps more right to the throne, which he won't want. He'll love a woman he can't marry or have children with in his mind. Maybe only he ever finds out and leaves without ever telling her.

Sure, it's a trope, it's cliche, and yet depending on how it's written it could work. I'm not a fan of the ship, but I'm keeping an open mind, and in some way I find it inevitable that there will develop some attraction and tension because of it. The sole issue I truly have against the whole idea of them having a happy ending together is whether the books allow time for it. Usually a love relationship "flowering" from misconceptions and irritation, needs a lot of time spent together against their will, and without many witnesses. And I'm not convinced there will be enough opportunity for that.

[AllOfTheHours]

I think it's possible. But it would take a lot of focus to make it happen in the last two books when so much other stuff is going on. It would require Dany's marriage to end (which I think is likely and, honestly, can't happen so enough) and for her to get over Daario. When Dany gets over these emotional ties, she could find love again (in the form of Jon Snow).

Another pre-req for a relationship would be R+L=J. Dany has already confessed her hatred for the usurpers dogs and her refusal to differentiate between Bob and Ned (to Barriston's disappointment). So for her to be willing to get to know Ned Stark's bastard at all, seems dubious at best. But, if/after R=L=J is a thing, she would probably do anything to meet Rhaegar's son (since she thinks Rhaegar is the greatest).

When all that happens, they could likely become friends, if not lovers. And marriage is possible too (it could have some dynastic merits, since Jon's claim could be better than Dany's if his parents were married). But, my main issue is timing. A lot has to happen before both characters are emotionally ready, both known Targs (and not enemies), and are on the same continent. If we had more books, I would say it is a real possibility. As of now, the time constraints really make me doubt the pairing.

After the Outline leaked, Jon/Arya was proven to be GRRM's original canon. So even though Jon and Dany both survived until the end in the Outline, they were never in a pairing. This is not to say I take the Outline as fact (I definitely don't) but knowing that Jon/Dany was never a thing makes me doubt it even more. I just don't see GRRM putting in the plot and character work to make Jon/Dany happen in two books, when it wasn't part of his original conception for the story. So Jon/Dany is possible, but I don't think its likely.

[sweetsunray]

Something I just thought about, with regards to incest and risk of monsterlike children - Dany supposedly is barren.

I kinda consider Jon/Arya more "eew!" than Jon/Dany from the incest angle. Cousins or aunt-nephew, but with the former ship they grew up considering each other brother and sister. At least Jon and Dany would have been strangers all of their lives.

[XSarellaX]

Well, I dont think Arya will grow up fast enough to have a romance with Jon, so either George dropped the idea of a main pairing entirely or he replaced it with another couple. That could be Dany with either Jon or maybe even Tyrion.

The question is, did he change his mind before he started writing the first book, or only after he decided against the five year gap? I'd hate to think their relationship was built to set up the stage for a romance afterward...

Anyway, back to Jon/Dany, I dont see how they would have time to develop a convincing relationship in the next two books, but to be fair, I dont see how the story could be completed in two books either, so I suppose I will just have to wait and see...

But seriously, Im still tramatized about the whole Jon/Arya thing. I changed the way I see the series, even though I know it shouldnt.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Something I just thought about, with regards to incest and risk of monsterlike children - Dany supposedly is barren.

I kinda consider Jon/Arya more "eew!" than Jon/Dany from the incest angle. Cousins or aunt-nephew, but with the former ship they grew up considering each other brother and sister. At least Jon and Dany would have been strangers all of their lives.

GRRM has gone to great lengths to show us Targs are very, very strange. The tradition of incest wasn't always about duty. It's gross, everyone knows but it is what it is.

Jons great grandpa and ma Targs ran away together because they were in love. Aegon I married Rhaenys because he desired her. Just 2 examples.

Incest is a perfectly valid reason not to like it but it doesn't mean it's not going to happen. Just say no to incest kids!

[HexMachina]

GRRM has gone to great lengths to show us Targs are very, very strange. The tradition of incest wasn't always about duty. It's gross, everyone knows but it is what it is.

Jons great grandpa and ma Targs ran away together because they were in love. Aegon I married Rhaenys because he desired her. Just 2 examples.

Incest is a perfectly valid reason not to like it but it doesn't mean it's not going to happen. Just say no to incest kids!

I think, if you consider how the Targaryens would have been raised (being taught that incest is the norm/acceptable) the fact that some of them fell in love with siblings is less surprising.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Well, I dont think Arya will grow up fast enough to have a romance with Jon, so either George dropped the idea of a main pairing entirely or he replaced it with another couple. That could be Dany with either Jon or maybe even Tyrion.

The question is, did he change his mind before he started writing the first book, or only after he decided against the five year gap? I'd hate to think their relationship was built to set up the stage for a romance afterward...

Anyway, back to Jon/Dany, I dont see how they would have time to develop a convincing relationship in the next two books, but to be fair, I dont see how the story could be completed in two books either, so I suppose I will just have to wait and see...

But seriously, Im still tramatized about the whole Jon/Arya thing. I changed the way I see the series, even though I know it shouldnt.

Some of us don't think he dropped it at all considering how Jon was written on A Dance with Dragons. Some of that dialogue would be considered very romantic if she wasn't his sister. There are also quotes from GRRM about just pressing ahead regardless. 'if a 12 year old has to conquer the world then so be it'.

I don't see how we can justify the blatant queen foreshadowing in AGOT if he didn't have that outline in mind back then.

I hope he changed it, team Gendry. I wonder how many Dany/Jon fans will be joining our ranks LOL. All newbies welcome.

[sweetsunray]

Some of us don't think he dropped it at all considering how Jon was written on A Dance with Dragons. Some of that dialogue would be considered very romantic if she wasn't his sister. There are also quotes from GRRM about just pressing ahead regardless. 'if a 12 year old has to conquer the world then so be it'.

I don't see how we can justify the blatant queen foreshadowing in AGOT if he didn't have that outline in mind back then.

I hope he changed it, team Gendry. I wonder how many Dany/Jon fans will be joining our ranks LOL. All newbies welcome.

Perhaps he tweaked it to Jon/fArya (aka Jeyne Poole)?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Perhaps he tweaked it to Jon/fArya (aka Jeyne Poole)?

I doubt it. By the time she gets to the wall with her frostbitten nose Jon will be dead or in the fridge. Massey is a climber, he could marry her himself thinking he would get the North. Or he could take her to Braavos with him or she will be left at the wall at the mercy of a wayward watch of rapists and murderers who think she is the dead lord commander's sister. Regardless, Jon won't be there to call her bluff.

Everything right now could go so many different ways I don't think any specific fans need lose hope. There are arguments for and against every scenario that are valid.

[matchesmcfly]

I can't see dany's arch ending in anything but tragedy, sadly. I think it's likelier that Jon and Sansa end up together, with grrm's initial synopsis (I guess that Arya was split into sansa and arya?) And the 5th suitor theory.

[XSarellaX]

Some of us don't think he dropped it at all considering how Jon was written on A Dance with Dragons. Some of that dialogue would be considered very romantic if she wasn't his sister. There are also quotes from GRRM about just pressing ahead regardless. 'if a 12 year old has to conquer the world then so be it'.

I don't see how we can justify the blatant queen foreshadowing in AGOT if he didn't have that outline in mind back then.

I hope he changed it, team Gendry. I wonder how many Dany/Jon fans will be joining our ranks LOL. All newbies welcome.

Yeah, when I look back to these things in aGoT, I start wondering if the book was written with that in mind. And he did say that apart from the 5 year gap, his plans for the story hadnt changed.

Still, a 12 year old conquering the world is not as disturbing as a 12 year old having an affair with her adopted brother. Adopted brother, not cousin. Hell, my brother is adopted, and even though se dont exactly get along, I would never stop seeing him as my brother, regardless of his genes.

Besides, after all Arya has been through, an affair with Jon would come out as a result of all the trauma, something that only happened because she cant trust/get emotionally close to any other male. It would be very screwed up

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Nobody said it would be nice!

[AllOfTheHours]

I can't see dany's arch ending in anything but tragedy, sadly. I think it's likelier that Jon and Sansa end up together, with grrm's initial synopsis (I guess that Arya was split into sansa and arya?) And the 5th suitor theory.

I think this is possible if GRRM wants to keep some of the feel of his original plan. Jon tormented by his love for his half sister, awkward unrequited love triangle with Tyrion, and Jon ending up with a Northern Queen... The last piece is pure speculation, but it seems possible. I guess it depends on how much/in which ways GRRM has been adapting his original story/intentions.

[cade]

I like to subvert these tropes by not talking about them. Awareness of tropes stands out as the biggest challenge we face as a society. The return to ignorance is the only way to ensure you'll be happy with the finale. So I'm already there. All the way.

lol, I like your style. It's fast-becoming one of my least favorite words.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I used to hate the idea. Now I'm like whatever, it could work, but I'd totally be fine with them being platonic also.

Couple of thoughts:

0) If Jon is really dead and brought back by magic, I think it would be cheap if he weren't deeply changed by the experience, so that trumps anything else below, IMO. I don't think he should be in a position to romance anyone in the condition Beric/Cat were in.

1) If they don't ever interact I will eat my hat

2) Their shared desire to save humanity will probably lead them to being on the same side unless something drastic happens

3) It's beyond idiotic to say that two people who are as young and sexually inexperienced as these two have "definite types" that "the other doesn't fit"

a. In the case of Jon, Val and Ygritte have no more in common than Val and Dany or Ygritte and Dany. Also Jon is not in love with Val, she's flirty, he's attracted but busy. If anything Jon is about with Val were Dany was with Daario at the end of aSoS, maybe they will bone, but it's not inevitable.

b. In the case of Dany, Drogo and Daario are incredibly different. Picking one attribute they "share" (something about them being warriors I guess - them and half of planetos) and calling that a type is beyond idiocy. Remember, Dany loved Drogo because of the fact he was a decent person for a Dothraki and gave her freedoms she'd never tasted (not because he was ~dangerous~). Also, she didn't choose Drogo. Daario she loved because well, he's sexy and flirty, and appealed to her taste for vengeance/fire and blood/freedom she was trying to repress at the time. If there's one thing that actually seems important ot Dany in her two good relationships, is that her partner respects and admires her autonomy/freedom/independence. This is something Jon does with Ygritte as well.

4) Evidence they will automatically hate each other is thin. There's no evidence Dany will hate Jon for being a "Stark". She lumps Ned together with Robert because Ned was there. Jon wasn't even born. Dany doesn't hate the slaver children, quite the contrary. Jon will not hate her for being self-assured, Ygritte is self-assured. The only people who say this are people who think that Dany is wrongly self-assured and that Jon would sense that.