Can a Jon Snow + Daenerys romance work in the final book? Part 2

[Nictarion]

Great post!

[OldGimletEye]

Ok, somebody explain this to me very slowly, kindergarten style: How does the whole Jon + Dany thing work again, unless Dany calms down about the whole "Usurper Dog" thing and gets a more reasonable perspective about the whole RR situation?

I just don't see John selling out the memory of Ned Stark, even if Ned is merely his uncle, even for the "best khaleesi eva!"

[Mithras]

Certainly. And that wouldn't rule out their being ultimately, on opposite sides, like Jon and Ygritte.

It's not cheap soap opera to fall for someone who is objectively, an antagonist. Ygritte is an antagonist to the Night's Watch. Objectively, it's possible to argue that Ygritte was a bad person. But Jon clearly loved her.

George already did that with Jon. He does not like being repetitive with the same character.

[Dicer]

I just don't see John selling out the memory of Ned Stark, even if Ned is merely his uncle, even for the "best khaleesi eva!"

Ned had no animosity against Dany and vigorously protested any assassination attempts. I don't see how a Jon-Dany relationship would be 'selling out the memory of Ned Stark'. Similarly I don't see Dany being antagonistic towards Stark children who have already suffered enough at the hands of the Lannisters. Dany's issues are with the older generation who are all long gone now with the exception of a few holdouts like Jaime. None of the Starks are trying for the Iron Throne. She will be aiming for the Lannisters right now.

[OldGimletEye]

Ned had no animosity against Dany and vigorously protested any assassination attempts. I don't see how a Jon-Dany relationship would be 'selling out the memory of Ned Stark'. Similarly I don't see Dany being antagonistic towards Stark children who have already suffered enough at the hands of the Lannisters. Dany's issues are with the older generation who are all long gone now with the exception of a few holdouts like Jaime. None of the Starks are trying for the Iron Throne. She will be aiming for the Lannisters right now.

Yes, but Dany seems to have animosity against the Starks and Ned. Maybe she'll change her opinion. Then, again, maybe she won't. And, I don't think Dany bad mouthing Ned is going to sit too well with John, even if she has no problem with John or his siblings.

[Nictarion]

Ok, somebody explain this to me very slowly, kindergarten style: How does the whole John + Dany thing work again, unless Dany calms down about the whole "Usurper Dog" thing and gets a more reasonable perspective about the whole RR situation?

Character development. Dany's opinion of Ned Stark and RR don't have to remain the same the entire story.

It's JON btw.

[OldGimletEye]

Character development. Dany's opinion of Ned Stark and RR don't have to remain the same the entire story.

This is true. And if Dany can get a more reasonable perspective about the whole situation, I might like her a bit better. But, there is no guarantee that will happen.

[OldGimletEye]

It's JON btw.

You're right. Thanks for the correction.

[nastydream]

Character development. Dany's opinion of Ned Stark and RR don't have to remain the same the entire story.

It's JON btw.

it sounds wierd calling jon john :lol:

[Mithras]

You're projecting your own dislike of Daenerys onto Jon, though.

Step back and be objective for just one moment (I know it must be hard for you). How on earth is Daenerys comparable to Selyse Florent? Selyse is the wife of the king and carries no authority either towards his followers or towards the members of the Night's Watch. Daenerys, in contrast, is followed by hundreds of thousands of people who choose to follow her. When she took Meereen, she took advice from Reznak, Hizdahr and the Green Grace, all who had been involved in slavery, and she also took advice from the Shavepate, whose ideology was far removed from the former three. Most importantly, she also had councils comprised entirely of freed slaves (for instance, the one led by Rylona Rhee). This is not comparable in the slightest to your argument that Selyse "refuses to send help for people and tries to run the Wall with no knowledge of how to do so". In fact, I'd argue that Dany is comparable to Jon himself in this situation, who listens to the wildlings, loyal Night's Watch members, and members of the Night's Watch who openly oppose him.

Selyse is the Queen of Stannis and she DOES have an authority at the Wall. There is a clear distinction between taking advice and being fooled. There is a high probability that Selyse is taking advice from Bowen Marsh and probably Gerrick Kingsblood too. And the situation at Hardhome is exactly the same as the situation at Astapor. Selyse didnot want to send help to the Hardhome people. That is exactly what Dany did for the Astapori. Dany is comparable to Jon but that comparison shows that Dany failed where Jon succeeded (Jon never gave up Hardhome mission).

Jon is certainly disgusted at Florent standing and watching his brother be burned. But why is your natural conclusion to jump to Daenerys? If Jon hears about the death of Viserys and assumes Dany could have - or should have - stopped it, then it will only reflect negatively on him, just like Arianne's conclusion reflects negatively on her. Viserys physically, emotionally, and sexually abused Daenerys throughout her life, and then he threatened to kill her unborn child whilst breaking the law of Vaes Dothrak. He committed a crime and was executed for that crime. But most importantly, you're overlooking the true narrative purpose and intended dramatic irony for Jon's disgust at Florent: Stannis. Jon is disgusted at Florent for standing and watching his brother be burned ... so how would he feel knowing that Stannis had actually murdered his own brother?

WHY NOT?

There are already false rumors produced to fight Dany's image in Essos. It will only continue and even escalade in Westeros. Arianne's thoughts and the misogynist HS who will probably support fAegon make it almost certain that there will be a black propaganda against Dany in Westeros. Jon did not assess the truth of the news coming to the Wall about Theon and the Sacking of Winterfell, which are clearly wrong. Why should he care to think that there might be more to that case in the middle of millions of his own problems? Dany's case looks terribly wrong from outside? Dany stood as her husband Drogo killed her brother, which made Dany and her line heir to the IT. There is a great potential to be filled with black propaganda here. Why should Jon care to think about it twice, especially if Dany does not heed his plea for helping the NW against the Others?

There was a lot of time to drop hints if there was a narrattive purpose from Jon against the kinslaying of Stannis. But there is none. Jon's disgust at kinslaying can project onto both Stannis (if he learns the truth) AND Dany. The true dramatic purpose of that quote is against Dany IMO. You are overlooking a whole bunch of "adjectives" attached to Dany in Essos. Misogyny was used against Rhaenyra and being a woman contender automatically brings being dubbed as a whore in such a misogynist society.

Jon does have an emphasis on doing one's own dirty work. Daenerys doesn't hold these beliefs to the same extent that he does, but she still shares similar beliefs. When she executes Mirri Maz Duur, she is the one to pour oil over her and listen to her last words, and then she joins her in the pyre; in the Red Waste, she starves along with her khalasar, and even sits with Doreah as she dies; in the Plaza of Punishment, she is the first one to make any sort of attack, destroying Kraznys' face before she expects any of her followers to shed blood; in her battle for Yunkai, the strategy is completely hers; when the battle for Meereen begins, she intends to lead her troops into battle but only agrees not to after her advisers warn her against it; when Drogon shows up at Daznak's Pit, she immediately throws herself into the pit and fights him until he bows to her; when stranded in the Dothraki Sea (dehyrdated, malnourished, suffering from a miscarriage...) she forms a plan and manages to bring herself back into a position of strength. But please, tell me how Jon would not respect any of that, because she has servants - oh, wait, SO DOES HE. Significantly, Jon also at one point mentions a lack of respect for the "princess in the tower" trope, where a woman sits and combs her hair whilst waiting to be rescued... And then GRRM writes Dany's final chapter, where she has no hair, rejects waiting by Drogon's stone "tower", and then comes up with a plan to return to full strength whilst she is physically at her weakest. Another part of her chapter reminds me of Jon:

:lmao: Total failure of intelligence. There is no relation between "doing one's own dirty work" and the examples you gave. The only example you can give is the time when Dany ordered the torture of the daughters of the wineseller. And Dany didnot even have the belly to go and supervise the torture. That makes her even worse scum (in terms of practicing torture) than Cersei because Cersei went down and looked at the Blue Bard as Qyburn was torturing him.

I honestly do not care what your interpretations are. I have been discussing these theories for many years now, and generally these are satisfying conclusions based on analysis of the current evidence. We can happily agree to disagree.

I do not take Jorah as the treason for gold because he did not betray Daenerys for gold. Mirri Maz Duur, on the other hand, DID betray Daenerys for blood - specifically, blood magic. Similarly, Illyrio cannot be the "treason" for blood because he never committed treason against Daenerys. She was not in any position of power over him; if he committed a treason, it would have been against Viserys.

I never said they were "foregone conclusions". I said that I disagreed with yours because you were attempting to debunk the vision of Jon Snow based on your interpretations of these prophecies.

Agree to disagree then. But to the bolded part, I can only lmfao.

[Nictarion]

it sounds wierd calling jon john :lol:

I know right?

[nastydream]

Jon does have an emphasis on doing one's own dirty work. Daenerys doesn't hold these beliefs to the same extent that he does, but she still shares similar beliefs. When she executes Mirri Maz Duur, she is the one to pour oil over her and listen to her last words, and then she joins her in the pyre; in the Red Waste, she starves along with her khalasar, and even sits with Doreah as she dies; in the Plaza of Punishment, she is the first one to make any sort of attack, destroying Kraznys' face before she expects any of her followers to shed blood; in her battle for Yunkai, the strategy is completely hers; when the battle for Meereen begins, she intends to lead her troops into battle but only agrees not to after her advisers warn her against it; when Drogon shows up at Daznak's Pit, she immediately throws herself into the pit and fights him until he bows to her; when stranded in the Dothraki Sea (dehyrdated, malnourished, suffering from a miscarriage...) she forms a plan and manages to bring herself back into a position of strength. But please, tell me how Jon would not respect any of that, because she has servants - oh, wait, SO DOES HE. Significantly, Jon also at one point mentions a lack of respect for the "princess in the tower" trope, where a woman sits and combs her hair whilst waiting to be rescued... And then GRRM writes Dany's final chapter, where she has no hair, rejects waiting by Drogon's stone "tower", and then comes up with a plan to return to full strength whilst she is physically at her weakest. Another part of her chapter reminds me of Jon:

:agree: This paragraph is excellent.

[Mokymok]

It can be said louder but not any clearer.

[PatrickStormborn]

Thank you Mokymok, nastydream and Nictarion - sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a blank wall when it comes to saying anything remotely positive about Daenerys. :rolleyes: But never forget that GRRM has put her in his top 3 characters (with Tyrion and Arya) and "tsk"ed at someone on his notablog who said they hated her. :lmao:

Selyse is the Queen of Stannis and she DOES have an authority at the Wall. There is a clear distinction between taking advice and being fooled. There is a high probability that Selyse is taking advice from Bowen Marsh and probably Gerrick Kingsblood too. And the situation at Hardhome is exactly the same as the situation at Astapor. Selyse didnot want to send help to the Hardhome people. That is exactly what Dany did for the Astapori. Dany is comparable to Jon but that comparison shows that Dany failed where Jon succeeded (Jon never gave up Hardhome mission).

Selyse has NO authority at the Wall. The Night's Watch are not supposed to bow to the authority of ruling monarchs, so of course their consorts have no authority. (Of course, this is a technicality.) Selyse takes advice from a select portion of the Night's Watch; Dany does not do this. She takes advice from all different kinds of people: freed slaves, influential ex-slave owners, the Shavepate, the Green Grace, etc. She has councils of freed slaves - that sounds to me like Dany is getting to hear many voices, unlike Selyse.

Hardhome is similar to Astapor, yes, but Jon actually fails where Dany succeeds. Well, I use "fail" and "succeed" very lightly, and even ironically. Dany "succeeds" because she recognises that to save Astapor she would lose Meereen, but it is not a moral victory. Jon has a moral victory, perhaps, but his Hardhome mission is something that could only fail and would make his position at the Wall much weaker. The Hardhome mission contributed to Jon's assassination, and likely will be influential in the "fall" of the Wall, which undermines the whole purpose of going to Hardhome in the first place.

WHY NOT?

There are already false rumors produced to fight Dany's image in Essos. It will only continue and even escalade in Westeros. Arianne's thoughts and the misogynist HS who will probably support fAegon make it almost certain that there will be a black propaganda against Dany in Westeros. Jon did not assess the truth of the news coming to the Wall about Theon and the Sacking of Winterfell, which are clearly wrong. Why should he care to think that there might be more to that case in the middle of millions of his own problems? Dany's case looks terribly wrong from outside? Dany stood as her husband Drogo killed her brother, which made Dany and her line heir to the IT. There is a great potential to be filled with black propaganda here. Why should Jon care to think about it twice, especially if Dany does not heed his plea for helping the NW against the Others?

There was a lot of time to drop hints if there was a narrattive purpose from Jon against the kinslaying of Stannis. But there is none. Jon's disgust at kinslaying can project onto both Stannis (if he learns the truth) AND Dany. The true dramatic purpose of that quote is against Dany IMO. You are overlooking a whole bunch of "adjectives" attached to Dany in Essos. Misogyny was used against Rhaenyra and being a woman contender automatically brings being dubbed as a whore in such a misogynist society.

If Jon falls for "black propaganda", as you call it, then it reflects more badly on him than Daenerys. And why assume that Dany will "not heed his plea for helping the NW against the Others"? That seems very unlikely, considering she's one of the few candidates in a position to learn about the true threat to the realm.

Stannis was at the Wall with Jon, and Jon helps him. That's all the irony needed. GRRM doesn't need to say "It was ironic, because Jon respected Stannis who actually killed his brother". It's subtext.

It may, of course, also apply to Daenerys. But primilarily the irony is aimed at Stannis, who did not just stand and watch his brother die - he was actually instrumental in his death.

:lmao: Total failure of intelligence. There is no relation between "doing one's own dirty work" and the examples you gave. The only example you can give is the time when Dany ordered the torture of the daughters of the wineseller. And Dany didnot even have the belly to go and supervise the torture. That makes her even worse scum (in terms of practicing torture) than Cersei because Cersei went down and looked at the Blue Bard as Qyburn was torturing him.

Of course the examples I gave are Dany doing her own work. Perhaps you should actually try and individually refute them instead of offering weak strawman arguments?

Call it a "total failure of intelligence" all you want, but I think the points I made were strong, and it seems like at least some posters agree with me.

Agree to disagree then. But to the bolded part, I can only lmfao.

Why, are you a child?

I was respectful towards your interpretations of the Undying prophecies, even though I think they border on crackpot. Considering that my own interpretations of the Undying prophecies are based on evidence and generally in-line with the views held by the wider fandom, I think I'm in a stronger position.

I stand by my interpretation that the Undying prophecies are linear and relate to Dany's three main narratives: the fire for life, mount to bed, and treason for blood are about her Dothraki narrative, culminating in the birth of the dragons; the fire for death, mount to dread, and treason for gold will likely be about her Slaver's Bay narrative, culminating in her departure for Westeros; and finally the fire to love, mount to love, and treason for love will likely be about her Westeros narrative.

You are welcome to disagree, but do not disregard evidence, and be respectful.

[Ellfoy]

PatrickStormborn, great posts ! I do agree with your interpretation of THoTU. But actually, didn't GRRM said that Tyrion, Arya and Jon were the the three fans favorites with Dany coming just a bit behind ?

Between it made me laugh when people said that Jon will not stand Dany because what happened to Viserys (as if would be the first thing he will learn of her !) and because of her personnality. Jon and Dany are both idealist. Tyrion said it, the first thing you notice about Dany is the fact that she is a rescuer, that is probably the first thing Jon will notice because he is one too.

Edit : and the comparison with Selyse ! As if Dany would said about childrens and mothers "Let them die." !

[MoIaF]

PatrickStormborn, great posts ! I do agree with your interpretation of THoTU. But actually, didn't GRRM said that Tyrion, Arya and Jon were the the three fans favorites with Dany coming just a bit behind ?

Between it made me laugh when people said that Jon will not stand Dany because what happened to Viserys (as if would be the first thing he will learn of her !) and because of her personnality. Jon and Dany are both idealist. Tyrion said it, the first thing you notice about Dany is the fact that she is a rescuer, that is probably the first thing Jon will notice because he is one too.

Edit : and the comparison with Selyse ! As if Dany would said about childrens and mothers "Let them die." !

Dany is tied with Arya as GRRM's second favorite character. See min 2:18

[Ellfoy]

Dany is tied with Arya as GRRM's second favorite character. See min 2:18

Ah GRRM's favorites charcters, I thought we were talking about readers' favorites characters.

[MoIaF]

Ah GRRM's favorites charcters, I thought we were talking about readers' favorites characters.

Well, that depends. Book fans maybe although I've never seen a survey official or otherwise. For the series it's probably Tyrion or Dany, one and two.

[Ellfoy]

Well, that depends. Book fans maybe although I've never seen a survey official or otherwise. For the series it's probably Tyrion or Dany, one and two.

For the show, probably Tyrion, Arya and "Khaleesi" ! For the books, I remember having read a statement by GRRM saying that from the fans letters he received, the three favorites were Tyrion, Jon and Arya with Dany a litlle behind.

[SeanF]

PatrickStormborn, great posts ! I do agree with your interpretation of THoTU. But actually, didn't GRRM said that Tyrion, Arya and Jon were the the three fans favorites with Dany coming just a bit behind ?

Between it made me laugh when people said that Jon will not stand Dany because what happened to Viserys (as if would be the first thing he will learn of her !) and because of her personnality. Jon and Dany are both idealist. Tyrion said it, the first thing you notice about Dany is the fact that she is a rescuer, that is probably the first thing Jon will notice because he is one too.

Edit : and the comparison with Selyse ! As if Dany would said about childrens and mothers "Let them die." !

I think that the allegations of kinslaying and murder *will* be hard for Dany to live down. We know that there's nothing more she could or should have done, at the time, to save Viserys. But, to an outsider, her behaviour looks dreadful. Most people would jump to the same conclusion as Arianne. Later on, she killed her husband. We know it's because he was left as a vegetable. A third party could readily conclude that she murdered him out of ambition, after he'd murdered her brother, because she didn't want to spend the rest of her life in a tent, smelling like a horse. Then, she resorted to human sacrifice to hatch the dragons.

Any anti-Daenery propagandist in Westeros would have no difficulty in depicting her as a monster, worse than her father.