Can a Jon Snow + Daenerys romance work in the final book? Part 2

[Julia H.]

Um, Alys is fleeing marriage because Cregan and Arnolf want to steal Karhold from her or her brother, and that's why she is married to Sigorn. Not because of him being related to her in some way. (i can't remember what relation they are). And the idea of not marrying "clan kin" in the Seven Kingdoms is nonesensical. We know there are only a limited number of families to marry into, and cousin marriages are not uncommon. I don't see why Jon should take the word of Ygritte over what he has been taught as the norm for most of his life. I mean, even his grandparents were cousins.

I myself said the reason why she objects is not incest, and I also said that this could be a subtle hint (like foreshadowing?) with regard to Jon's choices later on. Alys calls Cregan "uncle", while Dany is Jon's aunt. I see some parallel here. But if it is not a hint, I'm fine with it, the other hints (Targaryens and Lannisters) are still there.

The problem is that the Targaryens are the most inbred family in Westeros (due to brother-sister marriages), and, as I said, both Jon and Dany are descended from the same madman. As for why Jon should heed Ygritte's word over "what he has been taught as the norm for most of his life", well, on the one hand, perhaps because Ygritte's words are specifically in the novel, told specifically to Jon; and, on the other hand, because it would not be the first time that Jon chooses what he has learned among the wildlings over what he has been taught in the Seven Kingdoms.

[Ellfoy]

Why would GRRM would put foreshadowings for something to tell us that it won't happen ? The point of foreshadowing is to give us some clues about what's going to happen, not the other way around. The anti-incest in Jon's arc could be set to make for more dramas. You know "the heart in conflict within itself..."

I still think that Jon/Dany is likely to happen but I'm not saying that it's going to end well. The foreshadowings seems to indicate that Dany will fall for Jon and that this will bring her doom.

[Nictarion]

I just can't see Jon getting past the incest thing.

It could happen before the R+L=J revaluation.

[Arya Targaryen]

Why would GRRM would put foreshadowings for something to tell us that it won't happen ? The point of foreshadowing is to give us some clues about what's going to happen, not the other way around. The anti-incest in Jon's arc could be set to make for more dramas. You know "the heart in conflict within itself..."

I still think that Jon/Dany is likely to happen but I'm not saying that it's going to end well. The foreshadowings seems to indicate that Dany will fall for Jon and that this will bring her doom.

But you don't know what is meant to be foreshadowing. As I said earlier, the books are full of foreshadowings that Jon will marry Arya. Why is it there if he won't marry her? But you can find other clues: for Jon and Val, Jon and Dany, hell, even Jon+Satin is based on the text.

Incest in Westeros means brother/sister or parent/child. Nothing else, get over it. Uncle/niece or aunt/nephew is not incest. Ygritte comes from a different culture, with less people in a village, and therefore different understanding of incest. Jon may understand that, but that doesn't mean he will live by it. Especially if he needs a political marriage, he cannot say "but we are related!". Nobody would care.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't think that Jon will be able to feel something about Dany after he learns *the next best thing than kinslaying*. When it will be known that her husband killed her brother everyone will see her as a kinslayer, especially since they most likely will see her to kill her *nephew* too. And who is to tell them that they are wrong?

[LordStoneheart]

I understand the "next best thing" part, I do... But let's say Jon hears it right from the horse's mouth. (poor dothraki joke attempt...) If he is explained the context I think he would understand, considering Dany had no choice in the matter and had tried to prevent him from doing something stupid before he pulled the blade. but alas, that's fairy tale world... I doubt such a conversation will ever happen. Maybe it'll come up during their 15 minute break from Other-slaying... :D

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I understand the "next best thing" part, I do... But let's say Jon hears it right from the horse's mouth. (poor dothraki joke attempt...) If he is explained the context I think he would understand, considering Dany had no choice in the matter and had tried to prevent him from doing something stupid before he pulled the blade. but alas, that's fairy tale world... I doubt such a conversation will ever happen. Maybe it'll come up during their 15 minute break from Other-slaying... :D

You mean if he hears it by one of her followers? The same people that will bring FIREE UND BLUUD over Westeros? Sure, he will believe them.

[OldGimletEye]

I understand the "next best thing" part, I do... But let's say Jon hears it right from the horse's mouth. (poor dothraki joke attempt...) If he is explained the context I think he would understand, considering Dany had no choice in the matter and had tried to prevent him from doing something stupid before he pulled the blade. but alas, that's fairy tale world... I doubt such a conversation will ever happen. Maybe it'll come up during their 15 minute break from Other-slaying... :D

So I guess what we have learned here is that people ought not to make judgements based on hearsay and ignorance of the facts. And, perhaps, they should try to do a little investigation before they render judgement. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Can, I ask, does this apply to Dany too?

[Ellfoy]

But you don't know what is meant to be foreshadowing. As I said earlier, the books are full of foreshadowings that Jon will marry Arya. Why is it there if he won't marry her? But you can find other clues: for Jon and Val, Jon and Dany, hell, even Jon+Satin is based on the text.

Incest in Westeros means brother/sister or parent/child. Nothing else, get over it. Uncle/niece or aunt/nephew is not incest. Ygritte comes from a different culture, with less people in a village, and therefore different understanding of incest. Jon may understand that, but that doesn't mean he will live by it. Especially if he needs a political marriage, he cannot say "but we are related!". Nobody would care.

For the second part of your post, I agree but for the forshadowings of Arya/Jon, that never happened, it's people going crasy overanalysing everythink.

[HexMachina]

So I guess what we have learned here is that people ought not to make judgements based on hearsay and ignorance of the facts. And, perhaps, they should try to do a little investigation before they render judgement. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Can, I ask, does this apply to Dany too?

Yep, it does. I'm hoping she will eventually hear the facts (I assume you primarily mean her father here?). GRRM seems (for now) to be deliberately keeping her from hearing them, but I don't think it will last forever. I hope she listens when she is told them though.

[OldGimletEye]

Yep, it does. I'm hoping she will eventually hear the facts (I assume you primarily mean her father here?). GRRM seems (for now) to be deliberately keeping her from hearing them, but I don't think it will last forever. I hope she listens when she is told them though.

Ok, good. Just checkin.

[LordStoneheart]

No, JQC, I meant if Dany tells Jon directly. And yes, Gimlet, it applies to her too (with her so-far inability to do so being one of her faults.)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

No, JQC, I meant if Dany tells Jon directly. And yes, Gimlet, it applies to her too (with her so-far inability to do so being one of her faults.)

Because why he wouldn't believe a kinslayer (when she will kill FAegon) and the next best thing (when Viserys was killed) right?

[Mithras]

Yep, it does. I'm hoping she will eventually hear the facts (I assume you primarily mean her father here?). GRRM seems (for now) to be deliberately keeping her from hearing them, but I don't think it will last forever. I hope she listens when she is told them though.

An important point because so far "no one presumes to teach the dragon."

[LordStoneheart]

Ah c'mon, you're assuming from another assumption (and incorrect since you've called him fAegon, which most likely means she wouldn't be related to the pretender.)

PW, she says that quote when Daario makes her mad because he offends her with a truth she isn't ready to hear yet, and her dealings with Barristan and many others prove that it was a rash statement.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Ah c'mon, you're assuming from another assumption (and incorrect since you've called him fAegon, which most likely means she wouldn't be related to the pretender.)

We might know that FAegon is fake, but I don't think that the rest of Westeros will know that. After what Jon would had seen, her killing FAegon, and what he have learned, her husband killing her brother in front of her, why he should believe her?

[nastydream]

We might know that FAegon is fake, but I don't think that the rest of Westeros will know that. After what Jon would had seen, her killing FAegon, and what he have learned, her husband killing her brother in front of her, why he should believe her?

Didn't Kevan suspect that Aegon is fake?So we could assume others suspect that he's fake.

[LordStoneheart]

It's not set in stone that Dany will kill Aegon, only vaguely hinted that she will "slay the lie" that he's a dragon. that doesn't mean she'll kill him. (if it does, poor Stannis... just can't catch a break.)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Didn't Kevan suspect that Aegon is fake?So we could assume others suspect that he's fake.

Sure thing. If he comes with Doran and JonCon who wouldn't think that he is fake?

BTW Kevan didn't thought that FAegon was fake, he thought that Aegon who died with Elia was fake.

[PatrickStormborn]

I just can't see Jon getting past the incest thing.

I would imagine that would only be revealed once they had already met. And I think it's the perfect hurdle to put in front of their relationship. Hell, if Jon and Dany are going to have a romantic relationship, I imagine it's going to be full of more hurdles than most of the previous relationships we've seen so far. That's why I'm so interested in it - there's so much working against it, but there's also so much working for it. It's the most satisfying plot development for both characters IMO.

I don't think that Jon will be able to feel something about Dany after he learns *the next best thing than kinslaying*. When it will be known that her husband killed her brother everyone will see her as a kinslayer, especially since they most likely will see her to kill her *nephew* too. And who is to tell them that they are wrong?

And everyone in Westeros also thinks that Ned tried to steal the throne from Joffrey. And they think Jon is a turncloak, first for Stannis and then for the wildlings.

Neither are going to have good reputations, which is why this is going to be so interesting to read about.

Sure thing. If he comes with Doran and JonCon who wouldn't think that he is fake?

BTW Kevan didn't thought that FAegon was fake, he thought that Aegon who died with Elia was fake.

No, Kevan said in front of the Lannister small council that Aegon was likely to be fake, and would require Dany's support for any legitimacy.

He expresses some doubt when Varys arrives, of course, because he knows that the baby killed by Gregor Clegane was unrecognisable. But I'd imagine the vast majority of people in Westeros are unaware of that.

And, as LordStoneheart has rightfully pointed out, it's only a theory that Dany will kill Aegon. If that is the case, we must also predict that she will kill Stannis ("slayer of lies").