Can a Jon Snow + Daenerys romance work in the final book? Part 2

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Don't ship GRRM's ASOIAF canon, but I'd be shocked if Jon and Dany don't hook up before the end of the series.

Similarly, I love that Jon's fans are the only ones who DON'T want it to happen. Instead you'd all prefer a background character like Val to marry Jon... perhaps because she's not developed enough as a character to offend any of his fans or actually have any distinct personality traits, leaving it easy for readers to identify with her position if she does marry Jon...

Maybe Dany's fans want it because we just happen to be better at picking up symbolism and foreshadowing... Maybe we want it to enjoy the reactions of people who don't want it. Or maybe we want it because we think it would be a satisfying development for both characters and the story itself (hint: that's why I want it).

I would smile for days at the exploding heads all over the Internet. It would be one of the best things ever.

Seriously, nothing I've read here or elsewhere has proven to me why Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen aren't careening toward each other. Kit is right, they'll either fight or f--k, and the fighting would actually be more predictable and cliched of a choice for GRRM to make.

They're not each other's type? Not proven in the text. Just speculation about the kind of woman Jon is attracted to. But GRRM's not writing a meet cute romcom. This is a world where marriage is done for politics, strategy, and pragmatics. It's not an online dating ad.

They're aunt and nephew? Who says they'll know that by the time they meet, form a strategic alliance and/or hook up?

It's cliched? Then why are you reading fantasy? Yes, GRRM kills your faves, sparingly uses magic, and has built a great world. Exactly what other groundbreaking, genre bending feats does GRRM accomplish? Especially when what many fans believe is the central puzzle of the story -- R+L = J -- is itself a romantic cliche? How about that original "bastard boy is really the son of the crown prince!" Guess what? Many of us avid fantasy readers view it as comfort food. We like our tropes!

Main male character hooks up with the main female character is overdone? Well, although it was clear to me from AGoT that Dany was likely (one of) the female protagonist(s), did people seriously pick Jon for it in Book #1? Always liked Jon, but sorry, I didn't. Perhaps some readers are clairvoyant...

Dany's silver hair is one of the things that is the most noticeable about her whether described as pale or not. A description of silver hair brings Dany to mind.

The air smelling sweetly to Dany is the HOTU goes hand in hand with the air tasting sweetly when Val is next to Jon. It's about the air being sweet around Jon.

Patrick has already address the errors in your interpretation of those HOTU visions.

The twin scenes of both Jon and Dany both lamenting that they feel lonely even though they are sleeping beside their lovers is unique to the two of them. They find themselves in almost identical situations expressing almost identical thoughts. Unless you can find a scene with another character that is as close these scenes as they are to each other then your point doesn't stand.

The Jon Lightbringer theory is ridiculous bullshit so I won't addressed that.

However, having Dany describe the khal in almost the same manner Tyrion describes Jon draws a parallel between the two men like the parallel of Jon describing Val's hair as silver when Dany is the one with silver hair.

Exactly. And there are places on the show where Jon and Dany scenes follow each other and almost seem to speak to one another. D&D are clearly doing that on purpose. Dany felt powerful with Drogo and she feels sexy with Daario. But not sure that either ever fully understood her. She'd be able to get that from Jon. Jon would be able to read Dany like a book, read her and know not only her insecurities and inadequacies, but also her good points like her idealism and her loyalty.

I think it'll happen.

[Lars Penry]

Just logistically I don't see how GRRM can fit it in one book alongside everything else that's going on. It would be so unnatural.

[Steelborn]

It's cliched? Then why are you reading fantasy? Yes, GRRM kills your faves, sparingly uses magic, and has built a great world. Exactly what other groundbreaking, genre bending feats does GRRM accomplish? Especially when what many fans believe is the central puzzle of the story -- R+L = J -- is itself a romantic cliche? How about that original "bastard boy is really the son of the crown prince!" Guess what? Many of us avid fantasy readers view it as comfort food. We like our tropes!

Except that we don't know if R + L = J is a cliche romantic thing that eventually met a tragic ending, and it doesn't mean that because he's the son of a crown prince, his destiny will change forever, the country will unite for him so he can be king and so on.

And with everything that has happened so far, I can't see why R + L = J is THE central puzzle of the story.

[UtherSnow]

I guess the title 'A Dream Of Spring' is like, man, yeah, ya-dig, far-out, Peace & Love.... So, the previous books were really about Vietnam, and all that followed, right up to the current Middle East calamity. Therefore the finale must be sweetness and light.

There's a word that sums all this up. It is known. TRIPE!!!

In the midst of winter, what do you do? In the midst of battle, what do you do? Who wouldn't dream of better days?

The realm of man is too taken up with this petty bickering over a rusty antique. Who, in their right mind, wants to sit on an Iron Throne? Winter is coming. Snow is already falling in Kings Landing. Brass monkeys are keeping well away from that monstrosity. Yet, brainless man insists that some idiot sits there. Keep it, I say!

Dany doesn't even know about The Wall. It won't appear on her agenda. Plus, it's f-ing cold, and definitely to be moved further down any list she has.

Jon has no interest in what's been happening in Essos. If you ask him, he'd reply 'where?' without a doubt.

A romance for them is..... laughable, at the very least. TRIPE, in true northern vernacular!

Dany doesn't look like Ygrette. Jon doesn't look like Drogo. Simply because she represents fire and he represents ice.....

Fire and Ice are dangerous on their own, together, what do you get? It certainly would not be a steamy romance. That's soap territory, as scripted based on books published by M&B (not the brewing company!).

[LordStoneheart]

Dany doesn't look like Ygrette. Jon doesn't like like Drogo.

How shallow do you think the both of them are?

[Queen.Sansa.Lannister]

I know the person who actually came up with the idea that the HOTU predicted something other than the Red Wedding and I also know that this interpretation is absolutely not what she had in mind when she argued it. Dany doesn't note the wolf's head as being "albino," which you would think would be a pretty important feature. I'm also not sure where you're getting "watching her as if she is attractive" from "mute appeal," given that appeal has multiple meanings and in the context of such a grotesque scene, I'm pretty sure it isn't that meaning.

I'll also point out that the Bael the Bard story has more parallels where Rhaegar and Lyanna are concerned than with Dany and Jon. They are the in-story parallel, not the latter pair.

Finally, I'd be leery about relying on "sweetness" as too much of a positive when it comes to the blue rose in the Wall, given that sweetness is not necessarily a good thing for Dany.

ETA: I also haven't seen anyone step away from the freaking blue flower for a sec and actually examine how Jon and Dany operate as people. I posted this earlier, but I think Dany is absolutely not the sort of person Jon would go for or even respect. His contempt for Selyse, who refuses to send help for people and tries to run the Wall with no knowledge of how to do so; his disgust at Florent for letting his brother be burned; his emphasis on doing one's own dirty work; his impatience with useless titles. Sorry but I think that's the kind of thing that might carry more narrative weight than what Val's hair looks like in the moonlight.

I understand that wasn't her intention with her theory, but Jon was still the wolf in her theory, yes? I'm just tweaking it to fit my theory. And her theory makes a heck of a lot more sense than the generally accepted Red Wedding interpretation.

And I didn't mean to say "watching her as if she were attractive." I just couldn't find the word I was looking for.

ETA: I think perhaps she meant BRAN was the wolf, not Jon. So I will scrap this theory. But the other foreshadowings still stand. And, if you think about it, the Lyanna/Rhaegar story itself could be foreshadowing a Dany/Jon relationship.

[UtherSnow]

How shallow do you think the both of them are?

First love is always the one to measure others by. Neither was in a perfect situation. Both gained from experiences, however short either was.

From Danys' perspective - Who's matched Drogo? Daario is her bit-on-the-side. Hizdahr is a joke waiting to explode in a bath of flames.

From Jon's perspective - Ygrette is unmatchable. It's one-sided with Val, even though he may like her, as a person. She's no Ygrette.

Hard acts to follow. Romance is too M&B. If they do find Love & Romance, it'll be elsewhere, if at all.

R+L therefore D+J ?? That echoes of mirror-speek.

[LordStoneheart]

First love is always the one to measure others by.

True, but neither relationship was started because Jon or Dany thought the other was good looking. Their past relationships matter little in thinking they will end up together (at least in a non-romantic way. I don't believe they're destined for a "romance." I believe they will be in a political union that will somehow end in disaster.)

[Mithras]

ETA: I also haven't seen anyone step away from the freaking blue flower for a sec and actually examine how Jon and Dany operate as people. I posted this earlier, but I think Dany is absolutely not the sort of person Jon would go for or even respect. His contempt for Selyse, who refuses to send help for people and tries to run the Wall with no knowledge of how to do so; his disgust at Florent for letting his brother be burned; his emphasis on doing one's own dirty work; his impatience with useless titles. Sorry but I think that's the kind of thing that might carry more narrative weight than what Val's hair looks like in the moonlight.

Lol. Absolutely agree. I would also add Jon's implacable attitude in his dealings. And he was a LC, not an absolute monarch with dragons. Dany OTOH betrayed her every virtue in late-ASoS and the entire ADwD.

[Arya Targaryen]

As a Jon fan, I definitely ship Jon/Arya, and there are plenty of forshadowing for that, much more and much more convincing than any of these Jon/Dany foreshadowings. (like Val's hair being silver, and sweet blue flower at the Wall).

(And please, save all those "but they've grown up as siblings!" sort of arguments. I know them all, can answer them all, and nobody ever listens, so I won't bother anyway. And cousin marriage is not incest, and happened in the Stark family, too.)

However, Arya is still too young, so I doubt it will happen by the end of book 7. But who knows.

Jon/Dany may happen for a while, but I think Jon will be her third treason (for love) - and he will do it for Arya. True, it can be sibling-love, not just love-love.

[SeanF]

ETA: I also haven't seen anyone step away from the freaking blue flower for a sec and actually examine how Jon and Dany operate as people. I posted this earlier, but I think Dany is absolutely not the sort of person Jon would go for or even respect. His contempt for Selyse, who refuses to send help for people and tries to

run the Wall with no knowledge of how to do so; his disgust at Florent for letting his brother be burned; his emphasis on doing one's own dirty work; his impatience with useless titles. Sorry but I think that's the kind of thing that might carry more narrative weight than what Val's hair looks like in the moonlight.

None of that would prevent their being mutual sexual attraction between them. After all, Jon fell for Ygritte, who was a multiple murderer.

[Mithras]

I think you are incorrect in your analysis of the HotU prophecies.

• The fire for life was the fire for the dragons, not Viserys' death (please explain to me how that was for "life").

The mount to bed was her Silver to bed with Drogo, not Stannis being a fake Azor Ahai.

The treason for blood was Mirri Maz Duur killing Rhaego for blood magic.

The fire for death was most likely Astapor, not Rhaego. (Alternatively, it may ironically be the House of the Undying itself.)

The mount to dread was most likely Drogon in Daznak's Pit, not the mummer's dragon. (Alternatively, it may be something to do with her transportation to or from Slaver's Bay.)

The treason for gold is most likely still to come in TWoW to conclude her Slaver's Bay narrative.

The final set of three - the fire, mount and treason of love - will most likely be part of her third narrative: Westeros.

Jon is part of her "bride of fire" visions, along with a vision symbolising her first night with Drogo. That is certainly foreshadowing some kind of connection and interaction between them. And if Jon and Dany are going to be at the same location - which is what the "bride of fire" visions suggest, if we use the Silver one as a basis - then I think it is fair to assume some kind of romantic relationship is possible.

I didn't know that these were foregone conclusions. And why did you take MMD as treason for blood while yo do not take Jorah treason for gold? Dany believes them both. If you take one, you should take the other too.

I don't agree with your interpretations which look completely random and detached from each other.

As for treason for blood, I have a better explanation IMO. Illyrio betrayed Dany for blood (his own blood - fAegon). He did that by arranging the Dothraki marriage, which was actually her death sentence to clear the way for fAegon. This interpretation includes bride, wedding scene, and treason for blood.

As for mount to bed, that is certainly not Stannis. But I think the mount to bed will be instrumental in slaying the lie that Stannis is AAR. Same goes for the other lies and other mounts to slay them.

I also do not think that we are in a position to explain all these prophecies. George specifically wanted them to be extremely vague and Dany's arc is far from over.

[Nictarion]

None of that would prevent their being mutual sexual attraction between them. After all, Jon fell for Ygritte, who was a multiple murderer.

You can't fight chemistry.

[Mithras]

None of that would prevent their being mutual sexual attraction between them. After all, Jon fell for Ygritte, who was a multiple murderer.

That is a completely unrelated case. Jon fell for Ygritte but at the same time, he was in an undercover operation. In the end, he abandoned her and he was glad that they never met in battle because he might have killed her himself.

You can't fight chemistry.

ASOIAF is not some cheap soap opera, at least not the way I understand.

[Nictarion]

ASOIAF is not some cheap soap opera, at least not the way I understand.

People aren't sexually attracted to each other in ASoIaF? News too me.

GRRM is big on the human heart in conflict with itself. Dany and Jon having feelings for each other would fit right into that.

[Nictarion]

Nvm

[SeanF]

People aren't sexually attracted to each other in ASoIaF? News too me.

GRRM is big on the human heart in conflict with itself. Dany and Jon having feelings for each other would fit right into that.

Certainly. And that wouldn't rule out their being ultimately, on opposite sides, like Jon and Ygritte.

[SeanF]

That is a completely unrelated case. Jon fell for Ygritte but at the same time, he was in an undercover operation. In the end, he abandoned her and he was glad that they never met in battle because he might have killed her himself.

ASOIAF is not some cheap soap opera, at least not the way I understand.

It's not cheap soap opera to fall for someone who is objectively, an antagonist. Ygritte is an antagonist to the Night's Watch. Objectively, it's possible to argue that Ygritte was a bad person. But Jon clearly loved her.

[nastydream]

Dany doesn't look like Ygrette. Jon doesn't look like Drogo.

So Daario looked like Drogo?

[PatrickStormborn]

ETA: I also haven't seen anyone step away from the freaking blue flower for a sec and actually examine how Jon and Dany operate as people. I posted this earlier, but I think Dany is absolutely not the sort of person Jon would go for or even respect. His contempt for Selyse, who refuses to send help for people and tries to run the Wall with no knowledge of how to do so; his disgust at Florent for letting his brother be burned; his emphasis on doing one's own dirty work; his impatience with useless titles. Sorry but I think that's the kind of thing that might carry more narrative weight than what Val's hair looks like in the moonlight.

You're projecting your own dislike of Daenerys onto Jon, though.

Step back and be objective for just one moment (I know it must be hard for you). How on earth is Daenerys comparable to Selyse Florent? Selyse is the wife of the king and carries no authority either towards his followers or towards the members of the Night's Watch. Daenerys, in contrast, is followed by hundreds of thousands of people who choose to follow her. When she took Meereen, she took advice from Reznak, Hizdahr and the Green Grace, all who had been involved in slavery, and she also took advice from the Shavepate, whose ideology was far removed from the former three. Most importantly, she also had councils comprised entirely of freed slaves (for instance, the one led by Rylona Rhee). This is not comparable in the slightest to your argument that Selyse "refuses to send help for people and tries to run the Wall with no knowledge of how to do so". In fact, I'd argue that Dany is comparable to Jon himself in this situation, who listens to the wildlings, loyal Night's Watch members, and members of the Night's Watch who openly oppose him.

Jon is certainly disgusted at Florent standing and watching his brother be burned. But why is your natural conclusion to jump to Daenerys? If Jon hears about the death of Viserys and assumes Dany could have - or should have - stopped it, then it will only reflect negatively on him, just like Arianne's conclusion reflects negatively on her. Viserys physically, emotionally, and sexually abused Daenerys throughout her life, and then he threatened to kill her unborn child whilst breaking the law of Vaes Dothrak. He committed a crime and was executed for that crime. But most importantly, you're overlooking the true narrative purpose and intended dramatic irony for Jon's disgust at Florent: Stannis. Jon is disgusted at Florent for standing and watching his brother be burned ... so how would he feel knowing that Stannis had actually murdered his own brother?

Jon does have an emphasis on doing one's own dirty work. Daenerys doesn't hold these beliefs to the same extent that he does, but she still shares similar beliefs. When she executes Mirri Maz Duur, she is the one to pour oil over her and listen to her last words, and then she joins her in the pyre; in the Red Waste, she starves along with her khalasar, and even sits with Doreah as she dies; in the Plaza of Punishment, she is the first one to make any sort of attack, destroying Kraznys' face before she expects any of her followers to shed blood; in her battle for Yunkai, the strategy is completely hers; when the battle for Meereen begins, she intends to lead her troops into battle but only agrees not to after her advisers warn her against it; when Drogon shows up at Daznak's Pit, she immediately throws herself into the pit and fights him until he bows to her; when stranded in the Dothraki Sea (dehyrdated, malnourished, suffering from a miscarriage...) she forms a plan and manages to bring herself back into a position of strength. But please, tell me how Jon would not respect any of that, because she has servants - oh, wait, SO DOES HE. Significantly, Jon also at one point mentions a lack of respect for the "princess in the tower" trope, where a woman sits and combs her hair whilst waiting to be rescued... And then GRRM writes Dany's final chapter, where she has no hair, rejects waiting by Drogon's stone "tower", and then comes up with a plan to return to full strength whilst she is physically at her weakest. Another part of her chapter reminds me of Jon:

In Meereen I was a queen in silk, nibbling on stuffed dates and honeyed lamb, she remembered. What would my noble husband think if he could see me now?

Hizdahr would be horrified, no doubt. But Daario…

Daario would laugh, carve off a hunk of horsemeat with his arakh, and squat down to eat beside her.

If Jon feels impatience towards useless titles, that is completely unrelated to Daenerys. Let's compare her titles to, say, someone like Tormund, whom Jon respects:

• Tormund Giantsbane, Tall-talker, Horn-blower and Breaker of Ice, Husband to Bears, the Mead-king of Ruddy Hall, Speaker to Gods and Father of Hosts.

Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, the Unburnt, Queen of Meereen, Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Shackles, and Mother of Dragons. (Also referred to as Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the realm in the Appendices, and called "slayer of warlocks").

Now one set of titles truly are "useless" - those of Tormund Giantsbane. And yet Jon respects him anyway. Dany's titles, on the other hand, are all earned through her actions or through inheritance. If Jon feels different towards Dany's titles than Tormund's, then again I feel it reflects more badly on himself than on Daenerys.

I didn't know that these were foregone conclusions. And why did you take MMD as treason for blood while yo do not take Jorah treason for gold? Dany believes them both. If you take one, you should take the other too.

I don't agree with your interpretations which look completely random and detached from each other.

As for treason for blood, I have a better explanation IMO. Illyrio betrayed Dany for blood (his own blood - fAegon). He did that by arranging the Dothraki marriage, which was actually her death sentence to clear the way for fAegon. This interpretation includes bride, wedding scene, and treason for blood.

As for mount to bed, that is certainly not Stannis. But I think the mount to bed will be instrumental in slaying the lie that Stannis is AAR. Same goes for the other lies and other mounts to slay them.

I also do not think that we are in a position to explain all these prophecies. George specifically wanted them to be extremely vague and Dany's arc is far from over.

I honestly do not care what your interpretations are. I have been discussing these theories for many years now, and generally these are satisfying conclusions based on analysis of the current evidence. We can happily agree to disagree.

I do not take Jorah as the treason for gold because he did not betray Daenerys for gold. Mirri Maz Duur, on the other hand, DID betray Daenerys for blood - specifically, blood magic. Similarly, Illyrio cannot be the "treason" for blood because he never committed treason against Daenerys. She was not in any position of power over him; if he committed a treason, it would have been against Viserys.

I never said they were "foregone conclusions". I said that I disagreed with yours because you were attempting to debunk the vision of Jon Snow based on your interpretations of these prophecies.