(Book Spoilers) Speculating on events at the wall

[The Onion Sleight]

it's one of those "how dare you come here" by some underling who pulls a knife on Jon and then Mance tells him to stand down to have a chat

I think the story at the wall will end with the charge, the chance of them showing Stannis at all is 50/50

That's what I thought, too. The episode will likely begin this Jon's arrival at Mance's Camp, then that ^, then the Jon/Mance conversation and after Mance talking about killing "every last man in Castle Black", they'll hear trumpets, wonder what's this, go out of the tent, we have a shot of Mance running through his camp -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKM75XrS5XM (00:03 min), and then everything will happen as in the books.

And of course, we'll see Stannis, that's no question for me. The "Jon doesn't see Stannis, only sees the banners and hears "Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!"" thing works in the books, where Jon and Sam meet Stannis just a few chapters later; but if we wouldn't get another second Wall scene in 4x10, then this absolutely wouldn't work and would be anyway a very dumb decision, just can't imagine it.

I guess, we'll see Stannis and also Mel and Davos in the finale, even it's very short, but 4x06 / 4x07 won't be their last appearance till season 5.

[The Onion Sleight]

IMO the most logical and obvious choice was to not mush together content and delay the attack until Episode 9 because they wanted a giant battle episode. It made deaths of the characters less poignant, plus we got really weird filler in the earlier episodes. They should have spread out the attacks, like in the books (which also would have made Mance's choice to frontally assault the wall more reasonable, because he had no choice with the southern attack failing), so that the character moments could have had a chance to breathe.

The whole point of spending the entire episode at The Wall, away from the really exciting action that closed 4x08, was to show the whole battle. So they really should have finished it. This was like Two Towers ending with Aragorn saying "ride out with me."

I'm actually wondering if Stannis showing up was the original intent though? Because Marshall talked about "3 fronts" to the battle, so wouldn't Stannis be the 3rd? Or does he mean like, fighting the Thenns, Edd fighting the climbers, and then Grenn & Co. fighting the giant.

I'm wondering, too... Could you imagine they actually wanted in the past 4x09 to be longer than 51 min and 4x10 to be shorter than 66 min, but then they moved Jon/Mance and Stannis' arrival in the finale and changed the episode lenghts? Would maybe make sense :dunno: ... or you're right about Thenns, climbers, giant, mhmm...

[sj4iy]

I'm wondering, too... Could you imagine they actually wanted in the past 4x09 to be longer than 51 min and 4x10 to be shorter than 66 min, but then they moved Jon/Mance and Stannis' arrival in the finale and changed the episode lenghts? Would maybe make sense :dunno: ... or you're right about Thenns, climbers, giant, mhmm...

Marshall said the cut he handed to the producers was 59 min long...that wouldn't have been long enough for the parley and Stannis' charge.

[WTFSalami]

IMO the most logical and obvious choice was to not mush together content and delay the attack until Episode 9 because they wanted a giant battle episode. It made deaths of the characters less poignant, plus we got really weird filler in the earlier episodes. They should have spread out the attacks, like in the books (which also would have made Mance's choice to frontally assault the wall more reasonable, because he had no choice with the southern attack failing), so that the character moments could have had a chance to breathe.

The whole point of spending the entire episode at The Wall, away from the really exciting action that closed 4x08, was to show the whole battle. So they really should have finished it. This was like Two Towers ending with Aragorn saying "ride out with me."

I'm actually wondering if Stannis showing up was the original intent though? Because Marshall talked about "3 fronts" to the battle, so wouldn't Stannis be the 3rd? Or does he mean like, fighting the Thenns, Edd fighting the climbers, and then Grenn & Co. fighting the giant.

I agree with this, I just meant that it was the most obvious and logical thing to do after they had decided they were going to do the battle this way.

Instead of Craster's Keep and The Dreadfort, that part of the budget should have went to multiple smaller attacks on The Wall by the Wildlings.

But, I think cramming Stannis into the end of the episode would have felt way too much like a ripoff of Blackwater, but I do think where they ended it was also a stupid choice.

They should have done the meeting between Jon and Mance, and ended it with Mance telling Jon that The Wall is doomed, and ordering his forces to attack in full.

[Rattleskirt]

Everybody their own I always say. I do however agree with your opinion on Davos and Theon. Great chapters, great characters. Personally, I really found myself bored during the Jon chapters, with characters such as Val and Selyse being replica's of characters we've already seen.. Everytime I read something with Selyse in it, it comes across as Lysa - exactly the same, while Val to me is Ygritte2.0.. But that's a personal thing..

As for your latter part, and thus Kings Landing.. Who is remaining that we know?

- Cersei

- Pycelle

- Tommen

- Marge

- Qyburn

- Jaime: But he will leave early in Season 5 I'd presume..

- Mace: Leaves, but comes back later in the story..

- Loras: Leaves, to take on Dragonstone..

Which is good, because it allows for room for the events in the later portion of Dance, such as Daznak's Pit and perhaps the Battle of Winterfell and the events of the Pink Letter.

The thing I'm missing is the High Sparrow. Crowning Tommen without introducing him is already straining the Feast!Cersei-storyline, because the bargain she makes basically is her downfall: Crowning/Reinstated Sons of the Warrior. Why is she going to reinstate that ancient order if she Tommen is already crowned?

I think so too.. Well, actually, I think it should be split to around 30/20/10/40. 30% Meereen, 20% Wall, 10% KL, 40% collective of other regions, such as Dorne, the Vale, Riverlands, Iron Islands, North/Winterfell, Beyond the Wall, Braavos, Rhoyne/Volantis, etc.. Either way, the show is really Tyrion-biased so once he moves across the NS, expect a distinct lacking of everything KL aside from Cersei throwing herself of a cliff, metaphorically speaking..

Something I really love about the end of Dance is how every single region is covered by a POV.

Beyond the Wall: Bran

Wall: Jon, Melisandre

North: Asha, Theon, Davos

Riverlands: Jaime, Brienne

Vale of Arryn: Sansa

Crownlands: Cersei

Stormlands: JonCon, Arianne

Dorne: Areo Hotah

Reach: Samwell

Westerlands: ...Oh the Westerlands.. Why do you always screw with me?

Iron Islands: Aeron

Free Cities: Arya

Slavers' Bay: Victarion, Tyrion, Barristan

Dothraki Sea: Dany

They might even give Loras his own storyline. Who knows?

[The Red Melli]

That's what I thought, too. The episode will likely begin this Jon's arrival at Mance's Camp, then that ^, then the Jon/Mance conversation and after Mance talking about killing "every last man in Castle Black", they'll hear trumpets, wonder what's this, go out of the tent, we have a shot of Mance running through his camp -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKM75XrS5XM (00:03 min), and then everything will happen as in the books.

And of course, we'll see Stannis, that's no question for me. The "Jon doesn't see Stannis, only sees the banners and hears "Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!"" thing works in the books, where Jon and Sam meet Stannis just a few chapters later; but if we wouldn't get another second Wall scene in 4x10, then this absolutely wouldn't work and would be anyway a very dumb decision, just can't imagine it.

I guess, we'll see Stannis and also Mel and Davos in the finale, even it's very short, but 4x06 / 4x07 won't be their last appearance till season 5.

The trailer pretty much confirmed that we will see another Wall scene.

Link at 0;23

[Chebyshov]

The trailer pretty much confirmed that we will see another Wall scene.

Link at 0;23

Looks like Ygritte's funeral pyre

[Seneti]

I'm actually wondering if Stannis showing up was the original intent though? Because Marshall talked about "3 fronts" to the battle, so wouldn't Stannis be the 3rd? Or does he mean like, fighting the Thenns, Edd fighting the climbers, and then Grenn & Co. fighting the giant.

I agree. They have shuffled stuff around fairly often (wasn't there some interview somewhere where they said that some stuff with the Hound was moved from ep. 8 to ep. 10?)

Marshall said the cut he handed to the producers was 59 min long...that wouldn't have been long enough for the parley and Stannis' charge.

I think you underestimate how long eight minutes can be. It would have been more than enough to show the parley and Stannis.

[Chebyshov]

I think you underestimate how long eight minutes can be. It would have been more than enough to show the parley and Stannis.

Agreed; when I made minute-by-minute predictions, I had it at 9 minutes (from the deleted thread, quoted below). They ought to have kept it.

66 Minutes (in no particular order):

Treat with Mance/Stannis saves the day (9 minutes)

I originally was thinking this would need 12 minutes, but frankly not that much has to happen. I doubt Jon and Mance have that in-depth of a conversation, and we only need about 30 seconds of Stannis saving the day.

Other Wall scenes (6 minutes)

If we’re lucky, we’ll get the funeral pyre plus Stannis offering Jon WF. I don’t see how we can get him to be LC this season, unless there’s no elections, or if it happens really, really quickly. But I wouldn’t hold my breath for that.

Cersei x Tywin (3 minutes)

Who knows what this is for…from the promo it sounds like Cersei is yelling at him for being a bad dad, so probably this has something to do with her marrying Loras?

Cersei x Jaime (3 minutes)

I’m thinking some kind of repurposed White Tower scene. Cersei tries to pursue Jaime and he refuses.

Cersei x Qyburn x Mountain (2 minutes)

RS set-up.

Dany sees bones, chains dragons (6 minutes)

Gave this 6 minutes just because it’s Dany, though frankly the actual chaining of the dragons shouldn’t even take a minute, and the set-up scene wouldn’t need to be longer than 3. You can take those extra 2 minutes if you want and make a short Rickon scene? But unless we’re getting a shot of Sansa too, I don’t see why they’d bother including him. And I really don’t think we’re seeing Sansa.

Bran, COTF, BR (9 minutes)

Maybe the wights attack, maybe they don’t. I doubt we’re getting any visions yet, but this scene will take a while to explain, at any rate. Plus we have shots of Bran & Co. huffing through the snow, so that could take a few minutes too.

Arya/Hound vs. Brienne/Pod (7 minutes)

This allows for a long fight, them to realize Arya is missing (probably hiding) and leaving, or even the BWB interrupting somehow. Your guess is as good as mine.

Ayra refuses gift, talks to ship captain (3 minutes)

2.5 minutes with Sandor goading her into killing him, 30 seconds with the ship captain.

Tyrion freed by Varys/Jaime (7 minutes)

I really don’t think this needs 7 full minutes, but they’ve been fans of Tyrion monologue-ing in the dungeons. So that’s why I included so much time for this. Also he may have separate interactions with Jaime and Varys, which could bump that timing up.

Tyrion kills Shae & Tywin (8 minutes)

Gives him time to spy through the keyhole (I think from one of our trailers or promos), strangle Shae, and have a decent conversation with Charles Dance.

LS reveal, maybe with Brienne there (3 minutes)

I really have no idea if this will involve hanging Freys or not. Based on the music that was released yesterday, I’d guess Brienne is involved, because the track Oathkeeper has the same music in it towards the end that played when Thoros revived Beric. However, I think we’ll just get a dropped hood, so I don’t think this scene really needs much more than 3 minutes.

[sj4iy]

I'm wondering, too... Could you imagine they actually wanted in the past 4x09 to be longer than 51 min and 4x10 to be shorter than 66 min, but then they moved Jon/Mance and Stannis' arrival in the finale and changed the episode lenghts? Would maybe make sense :dunno: ... or you're right about Thenns, climbers, giant, mhmm...

The third front was in the tunnel with Grenn and the others.

[sj4iy]

I agree. They have shuffled stuff around fairly often (wasn't there some interview somewhere where they said that some stuff with the Hound was moved from ep. 8 to ep. 10?)

I think you underestimate how long eight minutes can be. It would have been more than enough to show the parley and Stannis.

And I think you are making assumptions based on no information whatsoever other than "I think that should have been in there".

[ambi76]

Crowning Tommen without introducing him is already straining the Feast!Cersei-storyline, because the bargain she makes basically is her downfall: Crowning/Reinstated Sons of the Warrior. Why is she going to reinstate that ancient order if she Tommen is already crowned?

Maybe I don't recall it correctly but AFAIK Tommen is "crowned" in the books as well just not "anointed" (i.e. recognized) by the Faith, so they can still do that part with the High Sparrow.

[sati]

And I think you are making assumptions based on no information whatsoever other than "I think that should have been in there".

Otherwise, in this case, known as common sense.

[sj4iy]

Otherwise, in this case, known as common sense.

It's common sense not to undermine your entire episode by making it look like a carbon copy of Blackwater...which is exactly how that would have looked. It also undermines everything the NW just went through and the sacrifices they made by giving it a 'happy ending'.

[Chebyshov]

It's common sense not to undermine your entire episode by making it look like a carbon copy of Blackwater...which is exactly how that would have looked. It also undermines everything the NW just went through and the sacrifices they made by giving it a 'happy ending'.

How was shoving the attacks together not undermining them? They go through a few weeks of hell in the books.

[sati]

It's common sense not to undermine your entire episode by making it look like a carbon copy of Blackwater...which is exactly how that would have looked. It also undermines everything the NW just went through and the sacrifices they made by giving it a 'happy ending'.

The ideal ending would not be Blackwater.

I don’t get this argument. At all. How many endings have been devoted to Daenerys and her reign of power (we get it, D&D)? The Rains Of Castamere ended similar to Baelor. Tyrion has gotten three endings so far this season and why his life fucking sucks.

Let’s look at the Nights Watch. We have people who have had to steal to survive, suffered abuse and felt worthless by society.

Stannis saving the day represents so much. The king who cared. The only person who answered the Night’s Watch pleas (were Tywin ignored it on the basis that they sent pleas to all five kings). Team Dragonstone saw it something worth saving. And that’s freaking powerful.

Tywin is a war criminal. He isn’t a big damn hero, and although Blackwater had impressive production values, the fact that show- only viewers were cheering on the wildfire and Tywin, is well, glaring. Sandor’s line “fuck the kingsguard, fuck the city, fuck the king” is so resonating not just because he said it to Joffrey, but because it’s what people were saying as they read ASOIAF and watched the show. Tywin’s actions didn’t improve King’s Landing- the conditions at Flea Bottom was still atrocious, Sansa and Tyrion still suffered abuse. It represented nothing to me, just a man wanting to save his family’s legacy with a bunch of privileged soliders who are lead by an overly ambitious family.

Stannis, on the otherhand, empowered the Nights Watch. They weren’t abandoned, they weren’t forgotten. He, and the rest of Team Dragonstone, stayed for a considerable amount of time and pretty much, all of them are in the North and Melisandre’s at the wall. The level of commitment is something the Nights Watch hasn’t gotten for a long time.

[Widows_Blood]

It's common sense not to undermine your entire episode by making it look like a carbon copy of Blackwater...which is exactly how that would have looked. It also undermines everything the NW just went through and the sacrifices they made by giving it a 'happy ending'.

I agree. The episode was about the NIGHTS WATCH and their survival through the night. Any other ending would have undermined that. Of course Stannis fans are gonna through a tantrum, but its their own damn fault for building it up to something its not.

[The Onion Sleight]

I wanted to post this also on this thread:

Interview with Kit on "Elle" -> http://www.elle.com/news/culture/kit-harington-dragon-interview

E: "Can you tease the finale episode?"

K: "The battle ends at the end of episode nine. The beginning of ten carries on with the story. Jon is focused on being a leader. He’s a much colder person after this. He loses a lot of whatever warmth he had, which, let’s face it, wasn’t a lot. There’s a lot of lessons he’s learned in this last episode about doing what you need to do to survive and surviving past losing your love is one of those things. At the beginning of episode ten you see a very broken man."

[sati]

I agree. The episode was about the NIGHTS WATCH and their survival through the night. Any other ending would have undermined that. Of course Stannis fans are gonna through a tantrum, but its their own damn fault for building it up to something its not.

They're alive because of him. No one else answered their call.

I wanted to post this also on this thread:

Interview with Kit on "Elle" -> http://www.elle.com/news/culture/kit-harington-dragon-interview

E: "Can you tease the finale episode?"

K: "The battle ends at the end of episode nine. The beginning of ten carries on with the story. Jon is focused on being a leader. He’s a much colder person after this. He loses a lot of whatever warmth he had, which, let’s face it, wasn’t a lot. There’s a lot of lessons he’s learned in this last episode about doing what you need to do to survive and surviving past losing your love is one of those things. At the beginning of episode ten you see a very broken man."

I love Kit's interviews he has such a great insight into Jon

[Mel_Rose]

I'm wondering, too... Could you imagine they actually wanted in the past 4x09 to be longer than 51 min and 4x10 to be shorter than 66 min, but then they moved Jon/Mance and Stannis' arrival in the finale and changed the episode lenghts? Would maybe make sense :dunno: ... or you're right about Thenns, climbers, giant, mhmm...

It has certainly crossed my mind that they wanted to finish with Stannis, but were not allowed (or something similar) the extra time at ep.9 and that's why they had to move it.

The other thing that crossed my mind was that with Stannis the finale is fit to burst with exciting, memorable, game-changing stuff; I don't believe that the other scenes will necessarily eclipse the Stannis arrival. It will be like Ozymandias. Every scene in that episode was just crazy, the tension didn't let up for a moment, and perhaps that's what they're going for.