Widows_Blood Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 LMAO Stannis abandoned the watch the first chance he got so he could run around the north pressing his claim. HE abandoned them to the queens men and their fanaticism along with Mel. He left the watch under manned, under fed and without any support. Other than threatening Jons life on multiple occasions, what exactly did he do for the watch? They were in the same tenuous position after he left as they were when he got there? Would have been nice if he used some of that Iron Bank money for the watch, nope he used it all for himself. Don't give me this crap about commitment to the Nights watch. All Stannis did was pester Jon to accept his offer, force him to give up castles, force him to accept his every decision. Blah, blah, blah make more shit up for the exalted one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sati Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 LMAO Stannis abandoned the watch the first chance he got so he could run around the north pressing his claim. HE abandoned them to the queens men and their fanaticism along with Mel. He left the watch under manned, under fed and without any support. Other than threatening Jons life on multiple occasions, what exactly did he do for the watch? They were in the same tenuous position after he left as they were when he got there? Would have been nice if he used some of that Iron Bank money for the watch, nope he used it all for himself. Don't give me this crap about commitment to the Nights watch. All Stannis did was pester Jon to accept his offer, force him to give up castles, force him to accept his every decision. Blah, blah, blah make more shit up for the exalted one. Well, there's no talking to haters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widows_Blood Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 They're alive because of him. No one else answered their call. I love Kit's interviews he has such a great insight into Jon And Stannis rescues them in the next episode. Oh the humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 "It would have been like Blackwater." Don't you think that was an intentional move on Martin's part? Stannis loses Blackwater by 11th hour army showing up, then goes on to be the 11th hour army showing up to save the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashtibram Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Yeah, I consider myself a show apologist and I'm not bothering to defend the decision to leave Stannis out of episode nine. This is coming from someone who absolutely hates Stannis, in the books and the show, but without any sense of conclusion the entire episode basically amounts to "the wildlings attack, they are repelled; but they'll try again tomorrow!" That's not a worthy episode nine moment. Brilliant execution, production values and some truly amazing character and action moments elevated 'The Watchers on the Wall' above your average GoT episode, but this glaring omission prevented it, in my mind, from surpassing 'Blackwater' and earning a spot among the show's elite top 5 ('Blackwater,' 'The Rains of Castamere,' 'Valar Morghulis,' 'The Mountain and the Viper,' 'And Now His Watch is Ended'). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Yeah, I consider myself a show apologist and I'm not bothering to defend the decision to leave Stannis out of episode nine. This is coming from someone who absolutely hates Stannis, in the books and the show, but without any sense of conclusion the entire episode basically amounts to "the wildlings attack, they are repelled; but they'll try again tomorrow!" That's not a worthy episode nine moment. Brilliant execution, production values and some truly amazing character and action moments elevated 'The Watchers on the Wall' above your usual GoT episode, but this glaring omission prevented it, in my mind, from surpassing 'Blackwater' and earning a rating higher than seven. :lmao: They were banking on Ygritte, Pyp, and Grenn's deaths to heighten it to E09 quality, but given the lack of characterization of Jon's buddies, and Ygritte being eclipsed by stuff like the scythe, it just didn't work for me. I'm sure when I rewatch this season, I'll go directly from 9 into 10, so as not to break up the narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sati Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Yeah, I consider myself a show apologist and I'm not bothering to defend the decision to leave Stannis out of episode nine. This is coming from someone who absolutely hates Stannis, in the books and the show, but without any sense of conclusion the entire episode basically amounts to "the wildlings attack, they are repelled; but they'll try again tomorrow!" That's not a worthy episode nine moment. Brilliant execution, production values and some truly amazing character and action moments elevated 'The Watchers on the Wall' above your average GoT episode, but this glaring omission prevented it, in my mind, from surpassing 'Blackwater' and earning a spot among the show's elite top 5 ('Blackwater,' 'The Rains of Castamere,' 'Valar Morghulis,' 'The Mountain and the Viper,' 'And Now His Watch is Ended'). I'm glad even those who don't like Stannis see it as narrative failure. It just doesn't fit the other three episode 9. It feels like a calm before storm even with the battle even more so with cliffhanger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Onion Sleight Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 The ideal ending would not be Blackwater.I don’t get this argument. At all. How many endings have been devoted to Daenerys and her reign of power (we get it, D&D)? The Rains Of Castamere ended similar to Baelor. Tyrion has gotten three endings so far this season and why his life fucking sucks.Let’s look at the Nights Watch. We have people who have had to steal to survive, suffered abuse and felt worthless by society.Stannis saving the day represents so much. The king who cared. The only person who answered the Night’s Watch pleas (were Tywin ignored it on the basis that they sent pleas to all five kings). Team Dragonstone saw it something worth saving. And that’s freaking powerful.Tywin is a war criminal. He isn’t a big damn hero, and although Blackwater had impressive production values, the fact that show- only viewers were cheering on the wildfire and Tywin, is well, glaring. Sandor’s line “fuck the kingsguard, fuck the city, fuck the king” is so resonating not just because he said it to Joffrey, but because it’s what people were saying as they read ASOIAF and watched the show. Tywin’s actions didn’t improve King’s Landing- the conditions at Flea Bottom was still atrocious, Sansa and Tyrion still suffered abuse. It represented nothing to me, just a man wanting to save his family’s legacy with a bunch of privileged soliders who are lead by an overly ambitious family.Stannis, on the otherhand, empowered the Nights Watch. They weren’t abandoned, they weren’t forgotten. He, and the rest of Team Dragonstone, stayed for a considerable amount of time and pretty much, all of them are in the North and Melisandre’s at the wall. The level of commitment is something the Nights Watch hasn’t gotten for a long time. "It would have been like Blackwater." Don't you think that was an intentional move on Martin's part? Stannis loses Blackwater by 11th hour army showing up, then goes on to be the 11th hour army showing up to save the Wall. Yeah, I consider myself a show apologist and I'm not bothering to defend the decision to leave Stannis out of episode nine. This is coming from someone who absolutely hates Stannis, in the books and the show, but without any sense of conclusion the entire episode basically amounts to "the wildlings attack, they are repelled; but they'll try again tomorrow!" That's not a worthy episode nine moment. Brilliant execution, production values and some truly amazing character and action moments elevated 'The Watchers on the Wall' above your average GoT episode, but this glaring omission prevented it, in my mind, from surpassing 'Blackwater' and earning a spot among the show's elite top 5 ('Blackwater,' 'The Rains of Castamere,' 'Valar Morghulis,' 'The Mountain and the Viper,' 'And Now His Watch is Ended'). I couldn't have said it any better, thank you for your posts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard of the Rainking Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 It has certainly crossed my mind that they wanted to finish with Stannis, but were not allowed (or something similar) the extra time at ep.9 and that's why they had to move it. The other thing that crossed my mind was that with Stannis the finale is fit to burst with exciting, memorable, game-changing stuff; I don't believe that the other scenes will necessarily eclipse the Stannis arrival. It will be like Ozymandias. Every scene in that episode was just crazy, the tension didn't let up for a moment, and perhaps that's what they're going for. I think it's highly likely that they were trying to top Ozymandias, which was considered by many to be the best TV episode in recent years if not ever. Bryan Cogman even said something along the lines of: "We steal from Breaking Bad whenever we have the chance. Even sometimes their directors (referring to Michelle MacLaren)". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelastactionhero Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 LMAO Stannis abandoned the watch the first chance he got so he could run around the north pressing his claim. HE abandoned them to the queens men and their fanaticism along with Mel. He left the watch under manned, under fed and without any support. Other than threatening Jons life on multiple occasions, what exactly did he do for the watch? They were in the same tenuous position after he left as they were when he got there? Would have been nice if he used some of that Iron Bank money for the watch, nope he used it all for himself. Don't give me this crap about commitment to the Nights watch. All Stannis did was pester Jon to accept his offer, force him to give up castles, force him to accept his every decision. Blah, blah, blah make more shit up for the exalted one. Yeah man. Samwell calls him "the King who still cared," and Jon notes that he's fighting "For the Realm, while the Iron Born fight for rape and plunder," for absolutely no reason at all. lol. Seriously though, there's just no talking to people who can't grasp the character's nuance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 I'm rather torn on delaying Stannis' arrival personally. On the one hand, it works similarly to how it goes down in the books, with a couple battle chapters and then the chapter where Stannis arrives. If they've structured E10 right his heroic moment won't be drowned out, although it could be a disaster for Stannis if they get it wrong. The real problem though is that it makes for a pretty poor end to E9: The status quo on the Wall hasn't actually changed even after all that action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard of the Rainking Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Yeah man. Samwell calls him "the King who still cared," and Jon notes that he's fighting "For the Realm, while the Iron Born fight for rape and plunder," for absolutely no reason at all. lol. Seriously though, there's just no talking to people who can't grasp the character's nuance. Some even think that Stannis' famous quote: I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne. means that Stannis only saved the Wall because he thinks that'll get him the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 How was shoving the attacks together not undermining them? They go through a few weeks of hell in the books. It was a pincer movement, and something that should have been in the books if Martin wanted anyone to take Mance seriously as a militaristic man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sati Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Some even think that Stannis' famous quote: I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne. means that Stannis only saved the Wall because he thinks that'll get him the throne. "My enemies have made my kingdom bleed. I will not forget that. I will not forgive that". Clearly all of us who don't see Stannis as a selfish opportunist are wrong :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 It was a pincer movement, and something that should have been in the books if Martim wanted anyone to take Mance seriously as a militaristic man. But in the books, Mance didn't want to frontally attack the wall, because he knew it would be a ridiculously high body count (the Wall defends itself). He hoped the Southern attack would work, and it almost did, and it wasn't until after it failed he went for a front-attack. But good to know you could have written it better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 But in the books, Mance didn't want to frontally attack the wall, because he knew it would be a ridiculously high body count ( ). He hoped the Southern attack would work, and it almost did, and it wasn't until after it failed he went for a front-attack. But good to know you could have written it better?Mance is a moron, then. The southern raiders could have used the distraction from the North. Divide and conquer. In the books, there were half as many men at CB, all of them crippled, too old or too young- attack from both sides and he would have won. Anyway, it shouldn't matter if he loses a few hundred or a few thousand attacking the wall when all of them were in mortal danger from the WW. Even if he lost 50k, it would have been worth it to save the other 50k. Sure, he wants to minimize losses, but this isn't a "run away and live another day" situation...this is "all of us die if we don't get through".I don't creed to write the battle better, but I certainly can critique it for the lack of common military sense from supposed veteran military leaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelastactionhero Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Some even think that Stannis' famous quote: I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne. means that Stannis only saved the Wall because he thinks that'll get him the throne. George confirmed that saving the Wall was a righteous act, and he did it because he realized that the real fight lies to the North. Stannis isn't a superhero, he's decidedly gray, but it blows my mind how those that hate the character still find ways to bypass the author in order to claim he saved the Night's Watch for entirely selfish reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konradsmith Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Alright. So as we knew and expected, that Kit interview has confirmed we'll open at the Wall. With yesterday's troll and thread-hijacker out of the way we can look at this all with clear eyes. I reiterate my previous predictions. There will be more NW than just the probably rather-long opening scene of Jon getting captured by wildlings, treating with Mance and then Stan will dance with a lance in his pants. I am sure we'll see more Liam Cunningham and more Carice van Houten this episode because they need more screentime/credits. Since they had the IB funny business be Davos's idea, that confirms to me that we'll get the "cart before the horse" speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal_got Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 If Stannis charge is shitty as expected next episode 1. Replace Russel Crowe with Stephen Dillane in your head 2. watch this vIdeohttp://vimeo.com/60335706#t=6m47s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard of the Rainking Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Alright. So as we knew and expected, that Kit interview has confirmed we'll open at the Wall. With yesterday's troll and thread-hijacker out of the way we can look at this all with clear eyes. I reiterate my previous predictions. There will be more NW than just the probably rather-long opening scene of Jon getting captured by wildlings, treating with Mance and then Stan will dance with a lance in his pants. I am sure we'll see more Liam Cunningham and more Carice van Houten this episode because they need more screentime/credits. Since they had the IB funny business be Davos's idea, that confirms to me that we'll get the "cart before the horse" speech. If this is how it goes I'm very excited about the inside episode video, because that'll probably shed light on how they're going to handle Stan's season 5 stuff and I want to know their opinions about the scene in general. Also what were they on when they were doing the inside episode S4E02? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.