[Book Spoilers] The Duel

[Gneisenau]

Does anyone else think that Oberyn's spear was way too short? I mean, he supposedly used spear because he needed to match Greg's reach bu they shortened it just so he could do some stupid and useless acrobatics.

I think the length is about 1 or 2 feet longer than Oberyn, which is a good enough size, but Oberyn doesn't seem to use the extra reach, and most of the fight used very close shots, which I think creates the impression of Oberyn and Gregor being close.

[MyLittleFinger]

One-on-one combat scenes do not cost $20 million, or anything like it. If they did, Hong Kong's film industry would mostly vanish.

I don't get the hyperbole with such things, really. The show shot that scene over four days -- twice as long as some fight scenes in Hollywood, big budget action flicks like Fast and Furious 6 (to pick a random example that I could find while Googling). The actors are people. There's no wire work. Where's this massive cost supposed to come from? Don't get it.

You underestimate the wine budget for Pedro. That one shot took 40 takes, at 60 dollars a sip.

[saloneju]

Oh my. This was even worse to watch than the Red Wedding.

[22willdo]

I don't think Oberyn's behaviour can even be classified as "cocky". "cocky", in my book, means "overly self-confident". There's no way Oberyn can be "overly" self-confident.

He knows that he's better than any man alive, in every imaginable way. He doesn't even bother to look down on us mere mortals. He just enjoys life, without giving a single thought about how his appearance might be perceived. That may be perceived as "cocky". But it's not.

It's not cockieness that made him unwary. It's anger and rage and fury.

As for the duel itself: I agree with those who say it's depicted way too short. 20 minutes into the episode, I started frowning. 10 minutes later I got worried. At about 00:40-00:45 I was like: W.T.F? Are they actually trying to wedge this duel into a couple of minutes?

Pedro Pascal did an amazing job there. Throughout his whole, shortlived appearance. Whoever the lump was, who depicted the first Daario, he should go back to school and study Pedro's performance, in order to learn how to act a real Alpha Male.

[Gregor's Nancy Boy]

I don't know why Oberyn told Tyrion that the Mountain cut Elia in half. That wasn't in the books and it's just stupid to be honest. I really doubt he brought his greatsword with him when he scaled Maegor's Tower just to kill a defenseless woman and her children. Even if he did, I wonder how that went...

"Here, stand up, Princess. I just raped you and now I have to kill you. By chopping you in half. Step outside of the bedroom, over there in that open space so I can get a clear swing."

No, he was lying on top of her when he murdered her and when he was finished raping her, he just picked up his heavy mailed glove and dropped it down on her face. Because it was that easy for him. Gregor Clegane doesn't need a sword to completely obliterate someone. And the irony is that Gregor kills Oberyn the exact same way. He emasculates him by entering a missionary position and getting right in his face, "close enough to kiss." Then he delivers those disturbing last lines.

It's a revelation. The ultimate final taunt. No one knew quite how gruesome Elia's death was but the Mountain bellows it loud enough for everyone to hear. Then he demonstrates the same savagery on Oberyn as testament. If they cut Oberyn in half, I will be upset. But the fact Lena Headey has her thumbs over Pedro Pascal's eyes in that photoshoot at least shows that the actors are somewhat aware of how he dies in the books. Which tells me that's probably how he will die in the series. Those photos were most likely taken after season four was already filmed. It won't be exactly like his death in the books and that's alright. I had a hard time imagining Gregor beating Oberyn's face in with one hand while the other hand's fingers were gouging out his eyes anyway.

These are the things I want:

• Gregor's last words to Oberyn - especially "LIKE THIS"

• Oberyn dying the same way Elia died

The use of some sort of special effects on Oberyn's head/face (it has to be absolutely brütal)

Well God damn, they just knocked it out of the fucking ball park, didn't they? That was absolutely horrendous. In the best way possible. Oberyn's screams chilled me to the bone. You think just because he's so suave and brave that he wouldn't cry like a bitch the way he did. And that combined with Ellaria's little freak out at the end EASILY made it the most disturbing scene in GoT so far. Well done, HBO. Well fucking done. I think I'm going to need therapy now.

[DaveyJoe]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpJdJdyIEAETLhR.jpg

[Tywin]

They managed to keep it true to the books with the brutality of the ending.

The lead up dialogue about Orson Lannister was utter twoddle though.

Even Dinklage's skills as an actor couldn't disguise it. Like putting lipstick on a pig.

Had they ditched that or shortened it the battle would have seemed less rushed.

It was good though. Just not perfect.

[Amber W]

Just watched it - I cried. It was even more gruesome and heartbreaking than it was in the books. I feel a little ill now.

[Ephjos1302]

While I can accept he would be alive, I just hated the transition from half dead to not even phased by his wounds. I didn't get the feeling that the guy smashing Oberyn was the same guy that had been lying on the ground with more wounds than anyone should be able to take. And going along with that, if the Mountain was still alive, wouldn't those stab wounds drain his energy; i feel like those stab wounds would fatigue him a pretty large amount.

I think it was OK what he did. He's Gregor Clegane, he's a complete sociopathic crazy monster with a never ending, raging temper. The fact that Oberyn (who the Mountain probably found extremely annoying) just stabbed him up with a spear would have really, really pissed him off. Not only would he be in a blinding amount of pain (no pun intended), he'd also be severely embarassed that this girly Dornishman just beat him. You remember how pissed off he got when Loras Tyrell unhorsed him at the hand's tourney in book/series 1? The Mountain was severely weakening, but with that amount of rage and adrenaline, I'm sure in that moment, it became his dying wish to carve Oberyn's head in the way he did his sister's, and it would not have required too much energy for someone as big and strong as the mountain. He put his last bit of strength into doing that before he collapses on the ground and stops moving.

[The Emberheart]

Never before did a scene or movie make me physically feel sick. The detail, gore, the voice and sound that goes with it. Horrible to see. I agree that it is totally nescessary to give the scene weight, but I don't know if I can sleep tonight. I'll get over it I'm sure. Great scene regardless.

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

I find it funny that people are equating Oberyn's screaming to him being some type of wuss. He was getting his fricken eyes gouged out for gods sakes. I don't care how tough you are, you are going to scream.

[Defeatarion]

I find it funny that people are equating Oberyn's screaming to him being some type of wuss. He was getting his fricken eyes gouged out for gods sakes. I don't care how tough you are, you are going to scream.

I agree. But the screaming did bring us back down to earth so to speak. God that chapter & scene in the show. It's too real, too sickening. I re-watched it today, and decided I probably shouldn't watch it ever again. I thought they did a great job! But it rubs me the wrong way.

[teemo]

It was actually better than I expected. With the way D&D operate, I figured they'd cut out Oberyn screaming altogether. I was going to be livid if they did that. I did notice the body double and the cut issues like Ran pointed out, but I'm not sure the casual viewer would really notice. Maybe, I don't know.

I thought it was weird that a kid was cleaning off Oberyn's spear. Was he wiping off the poison or something? Maybe some attention to Oberyn's spear would have been nice for some foreshadowing, but I guess they want to blindside people with that bit. I think they should have cut the beetle monologue out altogether; that was stupid as fuck. Could have dedicated more time to the duel and pre-duel instead of that shit.

Is it just me, or is the Mountain actually crushing Oberyn's skull a little over the top? Meaning, is that even possible? The eye gouging was cool though. Tyrion should have vomited though. That would have been perfect.

It's a shame we couldn't get a non-brothel Oberyn scene before his death instead of some of the really bad scenes they had in there. The Missandei/Grey Worm thing is beyond stupid.

Oh, and Tywin seemed really kind of smug and happy after a Prince of Dorne was obliterated right in front of him. IIRC Tywin wasn't too pleased for Oberyn to die like that. I can't imagine him being so smug about it.

I guess I'm a sicko because I've re-watched the fight scene, including the eye-gouging at least ten times :D

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

While I did like the fight I entirely agree that the buildup was terrible. First of all what was withTyrion and Jaime not knowing anything about Oberyn's reputation as a fighter? Jaime's words of reassurance were basically "Well he seems to be confident in himself", as if Jaime has no knowledge about his fighting prowess. Buidling up Oberyn's ability, then watching him beat up on Gregor for 95% of the fight, makes the ending that much more shocking. I have to believe the only reason not to reiterate his penchance for using poision is to make the poisoning of the spear more of a suprise in episode 10?

[MyLittleFinger]

While I did like the fight I entirely agree that the buildup was terrible. First of all what was withTyrion and Jaime not knowing anything about Oberyn's reputation as a fighter? Jaime's words of reassurance were basically "Well he seems to be confident in himself", as if Jaime has no knowledge about his fighting prowess. Buidling up Oberyn's ability, then watching him beat up on Gregor for 95% of the fight, makes the ending that much more shocking. I have to believe the only reason not to reiterate his penchance for using poision is to make the poisoning of the spear more of a suprise in episode 10?

Sadly show Jaime is apparently a shitty fighter and a joke. See Brienne laughing at him and saying his reputation was all lies, Ned Stark shitting on him about not fighting in tournaments because he's got some Northern ninja shit or something and every character he meets saying he's a loser who would be nothing if his daddy didn't protect him with his gold and influence.

So it makes sense that he has no idea about Oberyn...or the Mountain...or fighting.

[Gregor's Nancy Boy]

I find it funny that people are equating Oberyn's screaming to him being some type of wuss. He was getting his fricken eyes gouged out for gods sakes. I don't care how tough you are, you are going to scream.

Those agonizing screams at the end of his life clearly indicate he didn't have a single clue what he was getting himself into. Maybe if he did, he would have been too terrified to even enter the ring with that monster. Oberyn was not ready to die. He was so sure of victory that he lacked the life-saving apprehension which ensured Bronn would not suffer the same fate. I don't think the crying was a sign of weakness; it was a sign that he took no mental preparation to brace himself for death before the fight.

[The Emberheart]

I somewhat suspect the spear poisoning will kick off first thing in Episode 9 as the first two minutes with Cregor Clegane screaming and jerking on a brancard, where we learn something is amiss.

I also wonder that if Tyrion had screamed something like "It's my life you're toying with here too, we all know who raped your sister, now kill him and we'll visit some whores together", whether or not Oberyn would have thrust the spear through Cregor's head and be done with it. Probably not I guess.

[Lee-Sensei]

Those agonizing screams at the end of his life clearly indicate he didn't have a single clue what he was getting himself into. Maybe if he did, he would have been too terrified to even enter the ring with that monster. Oberyn was not ready to die. He was so sure of victory that he lacked the life-saving apprehension which ensured Bronn would not suffer the same fate. I don't think the crying was a sign of weakness; it was a sign that he took no mental preparation to brace himself for death before the fight.

No. It was the sign that his head was being crushed by a monster.

[MyLittleFinger]

Those agonizing screams at the end of his life clearly indicate he didn't have a single clue what he was getting himself into. Maybe if he did, he would have been too terrified to even enter the ring with that monster. Oberyn was not ready to die. He was so sure of victory that he lacked the life-saving apprehension which ensured Bronn would not suffer the same fate. I don't think the crying was a sign of weakness; it was a sign that he took no mental preparation to brace himself for death before the fight.

I think crying in anguish has more to do with having your teeth smashed out by a 400lb muscleman that can deadlift 950lbs wearing plate gauntlets, then having your eyes pushed into your brain before your synapses collapse and you drift into sweet death...to be honest. I think Bronn wouldn't scream because he would be in a pool of his own blood long before he could get a cathartic moment to wax poetic about his plight.

[TheNorth's1stKnight]

Those agonizing screams at the end of his life clearly indicate he didn't have a single clue what he was getting himself into. Maybe if he did, he would have been too terrified to even enter the ring with that monster. Oberyn was not ready to die. He was so sure of victory that he lacked the life-saving apprehension which ensured Bronn would not suffer the same fate. I don't think the crying was a sign of weakness; it was a sign that he took no mental preparation to brace himself for death before the fight.

those screams haunted my dreams last night.