[Book Spoilers] The Duel

[MyLittleFinger]

Yeah, I'm irritated that none of the fight scenes ever have helmets, much less shields -- and going by this fight scene ( or the awful fight scene where the bastard of Bolton is shirtless killing fully armored opponents), armor seems really ineffectual in this adaptation.

I wish the fight has been closer to the book. They missed out on the dramatic development because they changed it.

Oberyn should have picked up the mountains sword - and after being grabbed, the mountain needed to bring him closer to his helmeted face so he could calmly whisper Ellia of Dorn before smashing his face in.

This episode really didn't have any of the dramatic tension that you find in the book. Instead they rushed it - and the Oberyn head poping made the already poorly handled fight that much less realistic.

Armor stops 11 year old girls who think they're Rambo cross Jet Li from stabbing you though. So it certainly has niche value.

[Seneti]

I also find it ridiculous that people actually nitpick about Oberyn screaming, I don't care how badass you are if somebody is caving in your skull while gouging in your eyes, you WILL scream. Else you simply have a physiological disorder.

This. It's one of the reasons I love Attack on Titan so much. Hollywood may have conditioned us to think that truly heroic and "manly" characters never cry, never scream in pain or never have second thoughts about selfless sacrifice, but truth is: they do. If you don't, then you are either 1) suffering from a serious physiological disorder or 2) someone who has undergone years, if not decades of training specifically designed to turned you into an emotionally neutral fighting machine (think Special Forces elite here).

Everyone's allowed to criticize anything, of course. But, this fight was awesome and for there to be this much criticizing just further illustrates truly how difficult it is to satisfy this forum. It's one of those things.... when you dramatically criticize everything, it's kind of hard to take seriously after a while.

No one cares when people that can't seem to be satisfied aren't satisfied.

Also, to the people complaining about the Mountain crushing his head, it takes about 200 pounds of pressure to crush a human skull. The Mountain is 500 Lbs and the actor likely benches 500+ lbs in real life. heck, that guy could probably crush a person skull in real life too.

Agreed on all of this, particularly that last bit. Just proves how strong the Mountain really is.

I'm not picky and I "liked" the scene. My only comment is : "he was speared through, how in holly hell can he come back?" but that's just me being picky? and really, totally in denial ^^

Actually, it is perfectly possible to ram a spear through someone's belly and miss all vital organs, as anybody who has ever worked in a hospital will be able to tell you. Some people just have an incredible amount of luck. Also, this is the freakin' Mountain we're talking about.

[Darryk]

Like you mean, in a good way?

Well it had the effect it was supposed to, so in that sense, yeah.

[Defeatarion]

Well it had the effect it was supposed to, so in that sense, yeah.

Oh ok I got you. And I agree. The knot in my stomach was the same feel I had when reading. A lot different than any other character death. It's hard to explain. Maybe because of how brutal it was.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Oh boy, I didnt need that in my life again lol.

[Demnia]

"Actually, it is perfectly possible to ram a spear through someone's belly and miss all vital organs, as anybody who has ever worked in a hospital will be able to tell you. Some people just have an incredible amount of luck. Also, this is the freakin' Mountain we're talking about."

Hey, I know it is. Now please let me find a reason at how "it's not freakin possible, how dared you killed Oberyn, Gregor should be DEAD!" =)

More seriously, yes it is the Mountain we are talking about and my only true reproach to the show : non readers don't grasp the ultimate threat the Mountain is supposed to be. It's one of the few things I really reproach to the show so far if I want to be picky. But I'm not. Because if you want to truelly experience this story, you have to read the books. I love the books =)

PS : I SUX at forum features, I try, please bear with me? I don't know how to quote someone that multi quoted =)

[Gneisenau]

I don't have an issue with light armor, but come on, why forsake the helmet ? Helmets are probably the most important piece of protection for humans. It is the only piece armor that has been used from antiquity to modern day.

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

I love how Oberyn screamed like a girl, the Mountain should have said "And then I made her scream like a bitch, like this".

+1.

With the punch to the face so hard that it broke multiple teeth all the way out, Oberyn's brain would have been flung around the inside of his skull, causing an aneurysm -- he would have been unconscious, possibly dead, but not screaming. It's the physics.

Screaming just make him sound bitchy.

[MoseStark*]

I think they did a great job with the scene! It was a bit different from the books, but it had a lot of awesome moments in it from the book. I have to agree there were much cuts, but it's TV, so I guess that was necessary.

However, I still feel a like sick from the gore. I knew it was going to happen, I knew it was going to be horrible, but this was just awful. And that was also because of how great Pedro was this season. I'm going to miss him...

[HouseLark]

Wow, this scene has really brought out the "one semester at film school" crowd. I'm not a person who likes to pick the bones out of art of any nature, my view is that all art works best on a visceral level. So for me, the fight was thrilling, I really felt Oberyn's anger, his own thrill as he thought justice was within his grasp. It won't have the same resonance as the Red Wedding but it's a scene that will live long in the memory.

[ultimo12]

Screaming just make him sound bitchy.

Which is the point. From ultimate badass to screaming like a girl, that's very powerful. I liked it.

[Demnia]

Which is the point. From ultimate badass to screaming like a girl, that's very powerful. I liked it.

You're ironic, and I'm silly and missed something, right?

[Leon salvatore]

that was some sick shit,

looks like now is going to be a tradition to have 1 of the lasts episodes to be over the top

can someone tell me in what page can i read the fight in the book

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

Wonderful. (Irony alert) And entirely predictable, Ran. You've clearly built up this moment in the book and expected it to be like the Rob Roy duels for YEARS in your head. This seems perfectly clear based on your endless tweets and postings here with links to the Rob Roy duel over the last two weeks.

That the show fails to live up to that is not the show's fault. It is yours.

And the idea that you will do a proper "cut count" is to prove how un-Rob-Roy this duel is just so endlessly predictable. But go ahead.

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For me this duel was extremely satisfying, and visceral on a level I have never seen. It definitely lived up to my expectation after reading the book. But that is just my take.

+10.

I suppose if HBO spent 20 million on this one episode and had two of the most competent actors in the world playing the parts, the fight would have looked better.

The show is doing fine -- not perfect, but the books are far from perfect also. Take the book version of the Viper/Mountain fight: it's ludicrous that an observer would be "cut in half" or involved in the fight in any way. If someone could be harmed, then theoretically *they* could do harm to one of the combatants. The crowd would have been held back, much like was depicted in the show version.

The show should be analyzed on its own internal logic, plot, characterization, etc. not held to some alleged gold standard in a different work of art.

[Gerg Sknab]

that was some sick shit,

looks like now is going to be a tradition to have 1 of the lasts episodes to be over the top

can someone tell me in what page can i read the fight in the book

ASOS....Chapter 71....Tyrion 10...page 970 thru 976 of the paperback...

[Gronzag]

Does anyone else think that Oberyn's spear was way too short? I mean, he supposedly used spear because he needed to match Greg's reach bu they shortened it just so he could do some stupid and useless acrobatics.

[Arthmail]

It was a stupid scene. It was written poorly in the book and showed poorly in the show. The amount of pain from having your teeth smashed out would have been enough, but you're not going to get your fucking fingers very deep into a man's eyes, and hence his brain, without his brain actually shutting down and nothing coming out of his mouth because he's likely brain dead. Certainly not to the point that apparently the human head is a giant zit waiting to be squeezed. Fucking stupid.

[bannor136]

Agreed on all of this, particularly that last bit. Just proves how strong the Mountain really is.

Actually, it is perfectly possible to ram a spear through someone's belly and miss all vital organs, as anybody who has ever worked in a hospital will be able to tell you. Some people just have an incredible amount of luck. Also, this is the freakin' Mountain we're talking about.

While I can accept he would be alive, I just hated the transition from half dead to not even phased by his wounds. I didn't get the feeling that the guy smashing Oberyn was the same guy that had been lying on the ground with more wounds than anyone should be able to take. And going along with that, if the Mountain was still alive, wouldn't those stab wounds drain his energy; i feel like those stab wounds would fatigue him a pretty large amount.

[Shy]

the real thematic quality of the fight for me comes from the gradual building of rage in Pascal's performance. The lines were delivered spectacularly, precisely because we get to watch Oberyn's loss of composure, the slow culmination of his anger into an explosion of emotion as he stands upon the precipice of his revenge.

Could not have said it better.

[Ran]

+10.

I suppose if HBO spent 20 million on this one episode and had two of the most competent actors in the world playing the parts, the fight would have looked better.

One-on-one combat scenes do not cost $20 million, or anything like it. If they did, Hong Kong's film industry would mostly vanish.

I don't get the hyperbole with such things, really. The show shot that scene over four days -- twice as long as some fight scenes in Hollywood, big budget action flicks like Fast and Furious 6 (to pick a random example that I could find while Googling). The actors are people. There's no wire work. Where's this massive cost supposed to come from? Don't get it.