Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part III: ASoS & ADwD

[Parwan]

...

I was the one that made that claim not MOIAF :P

My point on "a message being sent" is not only on the message being sent to the noble class of Meereen but also to the former slaves. I recurring theme within Dany's arc is freed slaves going for revenge on their masters after being free. The closest magnified character we have on that is MMD after she was taken under the wing by Dany, she still went for revenge because she had lost everything and then there is also the parallel of Arya at Harenahall and then the former slaves in Astapor making the noble men slaves. Fast forward to Meereen even if Dany investigated and found out the people responsible, lets assume 50, for it and executed them, I'm pretty sure many of the freed slaves that lost their children would try to make up that "163" so they would feel justified, I suspect it would be something like the Harpy murders but this time from the freed slaves themselves.

The point of 163 for 163 is to symbolize that the nobles and former slaves all have the same right to life, the act is not justice but it is necessary to show the equality of human life especially from the point of view of newly freed slaves.

Arya and MMD were not freed slaves. Numbers of people killed were not the essence of things in any of the cases you mention. Well, with Arya the number three had an importance, but that was not a matter of balancing the guilty with their victims.

More importantly, it seems that 163 is matter between Dany and the former rulers. It's not clear that the slaves even knew how many children were crucified. Besides, how would 163 crucifixions balance accounts for anyone but the queen? Surely, a lot more slaves than that have been cruelly executed in Meereen. Also, we know that the slaves rose against the masters, that there was a considerable slaughter, and that the city was sacked. To me, these things would be more important for former slaves than the admittedly horrible sights at the mileposts along the coast road. Thus, I can't see that 163 = 163 as a matter of great significance for anyone but Dany and the masters.

Most importantly, taking revenge as a way of balancing things out is a very poor way of starting your rule. I agree with SeanF that, in political terms, it was an awful move. Daenerys Targaryen, Queen of Meereen, should have started out by looking to the future, not the past. She should have taken firm control of the place and made it clear to all the different classes of people that she was in control. She failed to do this. The crucifixions were not the cause of this problem, but they were a significant part of it.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Most importantly, taking revenge as a way of balancing things out is a very poor way of starting your rule. I agree with SeanF that, in political terms, it was an awful move. Daenerys Targaryen, Queen of Meereen, should have started out by looking to the future, not the past. She should have taken firm control of the place and made it clear to all the different classes of people that she was in control. She failed to do this. The crucifixions were not the cause of this problem, but they were a significant part of it.

MMD isn't a slave but it still works for a case of someone that has lost everything and what they would do if given some sort of agency. My point is mostly based on the children having relatives and relationships to other slaves in the slave camp. Obviously many slaves have died over time but I'm pretty sure there was never a mass execution of slaves, otherwise what would be the point of having slaves. If there was a mass execution of slave children I'm pretty sure the slaves in a slave camp or anywhere at all would all hear about since it doesn't happen everyday. What would their mindset be after such executions? They would repulse their masters even more and if given some sort of agency there would be many that would take revenge given the chance. The 163 for 163 isn't just between Dany and the elite that ordered the executions, it speaks to the slaves aswell if nothing was done and all the nobles were pardoned the slaves wouldn't see their lives as equal as the nobles in Meereen, the method of execution is the thing that I go against mostly and the method of choosing the 163.

Taking revenge is a poor way to start ruling, but we have to keep in mind Dany wasn't planning on ruling Meereen at that point. If she was already planning on ruling Meereen I would say it was a very immature and poor decision but she was initially just going to take Meereen to provide supplies for her people, army etc. and continue her march to Westeros it was not until she heard news of Astapor did she decide to stay.

If she planned on ruling Meereen she might not had made that decision.

[PatrickStormborn]

Great analysis, Queen Alysanne. :)

I have more to add later, but I just wanted to address Dany's lack of planning first. It's a huge problem and ultimately means she's a step behind in her ruling of Meereen - she's constantly having to clean up problems rather than dealing with the causes of the problems. But whilst it's a valid criticism of her campaign in Slaver's Bay, I think we should use it to contextualise Dany's ruling of Meereen rather than constantly using it to point out the flaws in her leadership; it's a problem that shapes every action she makes in Slaver's Bay, but it doesn't necessarily mean the same will happen in the future (in fact, the opposite is more likely because of the experience she has gained). Dany lacked foresight when dealing with all three cities (although gradually less each time - by the time she reaches Meereen, she knows she has to take it or watch her followers starve), but in Meereen she doesn't ever expect to actually stay in the city. Her initial plan is simply to sack the city and clean up the mess she created before marching west. So when she's dealing out punishments to the Great Masters, it's because she never actually intended to have to work with them again. She wanted to send a message of her ruthlessness whilst also getting "justice" for the children they crucified. From a tactical point of view, she clearly made a bad decision as she begins to rely heavily on the Great Masters. But it is completely logical if we consider that her intentions were to leave the city behind.

Fire Eater, they may be related to the Great Masters, but I don't think they're at the top of the tree. I think you're looking at people like the woman who was robbed of her home and jewels by her former slaves, rather than the inhabitants of the pyramids. Say, people within the top 5% of the population, rather the the top 1%.

Agreed. If any Great Masters were selling themselves into slavery, they would have been referred to as such. "Gently born" has different connotations in a slaving society. It probably implies that they're the wealthier middle classes.

[Lady of Dragonstone]

Welcome to the Daenerys reread :)

Your post was very great :bowdown:

I agree guilt is a major theme within this chapter.

I also like the parallel you spotted between Jojen's quote and Dany's quote, I'm still mulling over it on what it could mean, there are a lot of parallels between Dany and Bran so I believe you could be on to something.

Thank you... I really enjoyed reading some analyses of Bran and Daenerys on here a month or two ago, but I had never seen anybody make that connection - I didn't notice myself until I read the chapter again for this thread.

When Jojen tells Bran that "all cloaks are black," he's giving Bran negative reinforcement at that moment. Bran is hopeful that the men are men of the NW, thinking that they would not harm their group if they came upon them. But Jojen tells Bran that by night it is hard to tell a friend from a foe, which I believe is another recurring theme of the books ("the night is dark and full of terrors").

I'm not so sure about Daenerys' quote, however. She is looking at her city, and she is looking for the house with the red door "but by night, all doors are black." The same theme of "the night is dark and full of terrors."

Worth noting is that while Bran is told this, Daenerys comes to this realization by herself. Also worth noting is that Daenerys associates comfort and positivity with the red door the same way Bran does with the black cloaks/NW/Jon and Benjen - both are symbols of home, a home they've lost. Both Bran and Daenerys are denied this comfort at the moment... the comfort of belonging, perhaps. But while Bran is denied this comfort by external forces, Daenerys is denied this comfort by her own self. Those are just some quick thoughts on this parallel.

[BearQueen87]

When Jojen tells Bran that "all cloaks are black," he's giving Bran negative reinforcement at that moment. Bran is hopeful that the men are men of the NW, thinking that they would not harm their group if they came upon them. But Jojen tells Bran that by night it is hard to tell a friend from a foe, which I believe is another recurring theme of the books ("the night is dark and full of terrors").

I'm not so sure about Daenerys' quote, however. She is looking at her city, and she is looking for the house with the red door "but by night, all doors are black." The same theme of "the night is dark and full of terrors."

Worth noting is that while Bran is told this, Daenerys comes to this realization by herself. Also worth noting is that Daenerys associates comfort and positivity with the red door the same way Bran does with the black cloaks/NW/Jon and Benjen - both are symbols of home, a home they've lost. Both Bran and Daenerys are denied this comfort at the moment... the comfort of belonging, perhaps. But while Bran is denied this comfort by external forces, Daenerys is denied this comfort by her own self. Those are just some quick thoughts on this parallel.

Hello. This is my first time in this re-read thread as a commenter, though I've been popping in and out for awhile. Dany is my favorite character and I love talking about her. I wanted to address the bolded part (hope that's okay :) )

I think Dany's line in the moment is one of loss and despair--at night all the doors are black and she can't find the house with the red door because she doesn't know where her home is. The house with the red door is her idea of "home" and of course it keep popping up in her POV as something lost and remembered.

I think, when it comes to Meereen, it's not her city. Not really. She keeps having to change tiny bits of who she is in order to accommodate the city but it will never be hers. In ADWD she must don the tokar (the so called floppy ears), she must lock up the dragons, one of her defining characteristics as the Mother of Dragons, she must marry Hizdhar. She's loosing tiny bits of herself in an effort to be queen. And I don't think it's coincidence that her search for the red door at this point in her narrative is coming on the heels of sending Jorah away --and directly proceeding the "red door" moment, she's watching various people leave the city and thinking that one might be Jorah. For close to three full books he's been her link to Westeros, ever since he presented her with the books at her wedding to Drogo (books that pop back up in this chapter). In the "red door" moment, she's searching for that connection--or heck, any connection, hence her dalliance with Irri that night.

Just my little take. :)

[HexMachina]

Great analysis, Queen Alysanne. :)

... but in Meereen she doesn't ever expect to actually stay in the city. Her initial plan is simply to sack the city and clean up the mess she created before marching west. So when she's dealing out punishments to the Great Masters, it's because she never actually intended to have to work with them again. She wanted to send a message of her ruthlessness whilst also getting "justice" for the children they crucified. From a tactical point of view, she clearly made a bad decision as she begins to rely heavily on the Great Masters. But it is completely logical if we consider that her intentions were to leave the city behind.

That is actually something that I have never thought about before, but now that you bring it up it seems pretty obvious and can't believe I haven't viewed it this way before :) Thank you, I'm going to go chew over that before I comment some more

[MoIaF]

Daenerys XI: Queen of Meereen

“I will not march.” “ What will you do then, Khaleesi?” asked Rakharo. “Stay,” she said. “Rule. And be a queen.”

Excellent analysis, thanks Queen A!

Analysis

The Two Envoys

After conquering Meereen Dany receives two envoys both coming to her for different reasons. The first envoy brings news from Astapor, where he states King Cleon has become the new King and that Cleon has made many of the highborn boys into Unsullied. The events that took place in Astapor after Dany left remind me of a very good example Ragnorak pointed out earlier in the re-read where the prisoners at Harrenhal would want revenge on their captors after being free (or something along that line). The same thing happens here in Astapor where the former slaves have risen up against the highborn to make them slaves. This shows the mistake Dany made, by leaving Astapor just to a council of freedmen. Another interesting parallel is when Dany took MMD under her wing, but MMD still took revenge against Drogo, this seems to be a recurring theme in Dany’s arc. Dany however shows that she has learned from her mistake as she is unsuprised by this and even compares it to the the former slaves in Meereen now acting like the place was theirs, and this leads Dany to stay in Meereen rather than march off as she did in Astapor.

Dany receives a second envoy that tells her that some of the freed slaves wanted to sell themselves back into slavery and she agrees to it but does not allow people to sell their children, wives etc. Missandei also advice Dany to tax people selling themselves. Many people have often used this part of the text as evidence that Dany is a hypocrite, because she taxes people selling themselves and at the same time she is fighting against slavery. I disagree with that assessment because I see Dany as a liberator such as Moses rather than someone planning to end slavery once and for all, meaning she is willing to free people who are in oppressed situations such as slavery or in other words, people that don’t like being slaves. One of the reasons Dany agrees to this is because Daario tells her they will have a better life in the Free Cities also later in A dance with dragons Dany tells Xaro that the reason she didn’t do anything against his slaves is because they were treated well. So at the end of the day I think it has to do with Dany against people who are actually owned and treated poorly rather than just the word “slavery” cause I am sure there are slaves in the Free cities that have better lives than people in Westeros and as much freedom, (Irri and Jhiqui under Dany come to mind).

The first envoy shows us how naive Dany had been in leaving her ruling council in Astapor without the appropriate military infrastructure to help maintain that newly created governing body. Her not being surprise at the news of the slave revolt of this council does show that she has learned a thing or two since the events of Astapor. It is an important lesson as a leader and ruler to understand the the ideal is not always the right solution. In the abstract a ruling council of wise men might seem like the appropriate leadership for a newly form society, however, Astapor like all of Slaver's Bay has been a heaven for violence against the oppressed, it is not hard to believe that these oppressed masses would then seek retribution once they had the means to do so. It is the same quandary that Dany finds and other's throughout the series find themselves in: justice vs. revenge.

SeanF

2. Voluntary Slavery How does this work? In the Roman Empire, some people did sell themselves into slavery, in order to seek better lives. The fee was paid to their next of kin. Dany finds it hugely embarrassing that there are people who prefer to live as slaves abroad than to live under her rule. These are unlikely to be Great Masters, who (apart from the 163 crucified and those who died in defence of the city) are able to adapt pretty well to the new order. It's more likely that they're middle class, professional people. They seem to have borne the brunt of the sack, and had their property confiscated. The influx of freedmen from the other cities will mean that the value of their labour plummets. Selling themselves into slavery probably represents a good deal, from their point of view.

In my view, though, it drives a coach and horses through abolition, though. It leaves an infrastructure of slave-trading in place. How do you distinguish between voluntary, and involuntary slaves? Particularly as the sellswords Dany employs to supervise the process are susceptible to bribes.

I agree Sean, this was not a good decision on Dany's part. Although I understand where Dany is coming from, "if you give a person freedom, they should then be free to make their own decision" it creates a very slippery slope. As a ruler Dany will have to learn to compromise in order to be able to maintain a somewhat civil society, however, there are things in life and as a ruler which should never be compromise. Slavery is one of those things, as you mention, once a person is allowed to sell themselves to a "good master" what is to say that their next master won't be as good to them.

I also agree that having her sellsword companies oversea this process is also quite naive in Dany''s part, they only goal is to make money, unlike Dany who cares for the wellbeing of her people, the sellsword companies could care less if a master buying a man is good or bad.

163 slavers for 163 children

After Dany conquered Meereen she asked for 163 leaders and crucified them the same way the children were crucified. This wasn’t justice as a whole (And was a cruel act), as some of the masters chosen may have not supported the crucifixion of the 163 children however I believe it was necessary to still come up with the number “163”, as means of sending a message that a life of a slave is as important as the life of a slaver in Slaver’s Bay (I don’t support crucifixion but I still believe sending that message one message is necessary). The only parts I would critique are Dany’s methods of going about to get the number “163” and the method of execution. I think a quick clean death would have been better and drawing straws for the 163 masters as the children were also chosen randomly. Dany also mentions justice; I believe she meant justice for the children but not justice as whole.

This is a very contentious matter that has been discussed many time on the board. Once again I'll say I understand where Dany is coming from and agree with you that the number of slavers that were crucified was a symbolic punishment for those children who were also crucified.

​In Dany's mind she is doing justice for those children who were crucified and believes that it needed to be done, someone had to pay for what had happen. However, we see that she later question the matter in which these men were punished.

"The anger fierce and hot inside her when she gave the command; it made her feel like an avenging dragon. But later, when she passed the men dying on the posts, when she heard their moans and smelled their bowels and blood … Dany put the glass aside, frowning. It was just. It was. I did it for the children."

Just like how she frees the slaves because she has the power to do it, she punishes the Great Masters, because no one could or would get justice for what happened to those children but her. She had the power to get justice for what happened, however, she does question whether that was the right kind of way to indeed get justice.

"Dany remembered the horror she had felt when she had seen the Plaza of Punishment in Astapor. I made a horror just as great, but surely they deserved it. Harsh justice is still justice."

I don't think Dany got any true satisfaction from the crucification of the Great Masters and as we can see she does recognize what she did to be a horrific act and just because a horrific act was perpetrated by some or all of the Great Master that they were punished in kind doesn't make that punishment any less horrific. Is harsh justice, still justice? In our world no it isn't but this is a very different world, however, she should probably have waited until her anger at what had happen to those children subsided and then found a better way to get justice for them.

PatricStormborn

Great analysis, Queen Alysanne. :)

I have more to add later, but I just wanted to address Dany's lack of planning first. It's a huge problem and ultimately means she's a step behind in her ruling of Meereen - she's constantly having to clean up problems rather than dealing with the causes of the problems. But whilst it's a valid criticism of her campaign in Slaver's Bay, I think we should use it to contextualise Dany's ruling of Meereen rather than constantly using it to point out the flaws in her leadership; it's a problem that shapes every action she makes in Slaver's Bay, but it doesn't necessarily mean the same will happen in the future (in fact, the opposite is more likely because of the experience she has gained). Dany lacked foresight when dealing with all three cities (although gradually less each time - by the time she reaches Meereen, she knows she has to take it or watch her followers starve), but in Meereen she doesn't ever expect to actually stay in the city. Her initial plan is simply to sack the city and clean up the mess she created before marching west. So when she's dealing out punishments to the Great Masters, it's because she never actually intended to have to work with them again. She wanted to send a message of her ruthlessness whilst also getting "justice" for the children they crucified. From a tactical point of view, she clearly made a bad decision as she begins to rely heavily on the Great Masters. But it is completely logical if we consider that her intentions were to leave the city behind.

Agreed. If any Great Masters were selling themselves into slavery, they would have been referred to as such. "Gently born" has different connotations in a slaving society. It probably implies that they're the wealthier middle classes.

As others have mention the crucification of the Great Masters was a poor political move that antagonize the people that Dany would later feel the need to rely on to manage the city. However, as Patrick and Queen A. both have pointed out, it was never Dany's intention to stay in Meereen and thus she never considered how her actions would hinder her ruling of Meereen. This is an issues which has been brought up before which is Dany's lack of foresight and proper planning.

Dany in many ways is ruled by her instincts which have helped her tremendously in her journey, however, you must balance instincts with analytical reasoning. She is capable of both but her strong emotions always veer her towards the more instinctual solution to a problem, which is not always the right solution to a problem.

Jorah Banished

Dany pardoned Barristan but banished Jorah. Daario stated that Dany should have either executed him or pardoned him. However the reason Daario says that is because he doesn’t understand the complexity of the relationship between Dany and Jorah. A few scribbles of Jorah to Dany:

· He was her advisor

· First person that swore fealty to her

· She believed he was her most trusted man

· Even though Dany wasn’t attracted to him, Dany wished she could love him back

· He was like a father to her

He betrayed her besides all this, and it would be very difficult for Dany to execute someone of this sort of nature even though he betrayed, he is like her family in a way. However I do think other characters in the story would have executed Jorah even if they had such close ties to him. And this shows Dany is a very compassionate person to those she loves even if they return her with wickedness (Viserys comes to mind). Dany adding Jorah to the list of her dead family also shows how much he meant to her.

Oh, Jorah, Jorah, Jorah....

Really, he had left Dnay no alternative but to banish him. His behavior towards her in the "throne room" gave her no other choice. He is lucky she only banished him and did not execute him as most other rulers would.

His familiarity with her (calling her Daenerys in front of everyone in the "throne room") was hugely disrespectful and showed he did not understand the gravity of how his actions had affected Dany, he was blinded by his love for her. In a way her more formal relationship with Ser Barristan allowed her to pardon his behavior much more easily than she could pardon Jorah. Their friendship and shared experiences made Jorah's behavior much more difficult to forgive because of the emotional attachment they had (have) towards each other. Plainly he failed to recognize that his betrayal was not just as an advisor but also as a friend and thus much more painful and harder to forgive.

Dany’s Reason to Stay in Meereen

Dany reason to stay in Meereen was to prevent what happened in Astapor to happen in Meereen. She also mentions that she she is not worthy to rule the seven kingdoms unless she can prove it in Meereen, many people over look this but I think it shows that Dany doesn’t believe she deserves to sit on the throne because she is a Targaryen she believes she has to prove it and I think this is a gem in her character compared to other claimants of the throne like Aegon. I also believe that sub-consciously she was tired of going to war and wanted a home; this is noted from her pondering at the beginning of the chapter and her curiosity of Missandei’s homeland which is apparently a peaceful place. She also mentions this during her hallucinations on the Dothraki Sea in ADWD. The end of the chapter also shows the lack of good advisors Dany has, all of them were against her staying in Meereen which in my opinion was the right decision. I’d even go as far as saying Quaithe is Dany’s best advisor even though she is cryptic.

Dany really had no other choice but to stay in Meereen. it was the responsible thing to do given what she had learned had transpired in Astapor and even Yunkai. It was her inability to think things through that gave her no other option but to have to stay.

​I'm not saying she shouldn't have freed the slaves, I believe she did the right thing without questions. However, she needed to understand that it would be a lot more complicated to change a culture which has excited for thousands of years. Just because she had freed the slaves it did not mean that it would be easy to keep them free.

When you take up a cause of such a large scale there will be many unforeseen consequences to your actions, however, many of these could have been foreseen and dealt with much more appropriately.

OTHER NOTES:

"The red priests believed in two gods, she had heard, but two who were eternally at war. Dany liked that even less. She would not want to be eternally at war."

​Dany understands that even though to conquer you must do war, she doesn't want to be always waring.

“Aegon the Conqueror brought fire and blood to Westeros, but afterward he gave them peace, prosperity, and justice."

Dany knows how to do the conquest part pretty well, although, not completely. I would say that if she had wanted to end slavery and oppression completely, she would have needed to conquer all of Slaver's Bay and any other slavery country in order to truly cripple (perhaps destroy) the practice.

​Once again her lack of foresight stalled her elimination of slavery and because the job was not completed many problems arose from the half measure.

About Irri:

"The maid was sweet and skillful, but all her kisses tasted of duty."

Dany knew that Irri was really not into this and she did it only to please Dany and yet Dany went to her again and I find this a bit problematic.

​In her anciety and despair at the citation she found herself in she once again failed to think things through. If she had thought about it she would have remembered that what Irri did she did out of duty not pleasure and it was wrong of Dany to use Irri in this way knowing the power she (Dany) had over her.

"The air was chilly, but the liked the feel of grass between her toes and the sound of the leaves whispering to one another."

""By night all cloaks are black, Your Grace." Jojen Reed

"By night, all the doors are black." Daenerys Targaryen

These two quotes connect the story in the North to the story here in Meereen. The first quote I included sounds awfully like the description of a godswood... perhaps *crackpot* a certain one, at a certain castle, in the North? ;) That's just wishful thinking on my part, but the whispering leaves put me into mind of the old gods. Has Daenerys ever seen a weirwood? Could she identify one if she saw it?

As I was reading along with you all on this chapter, Daenerys's quote about all the doors being black at night recalled to mind the Jojen quote where he tells Bran that all clocks are black, by night. A few lines after Daenerys says this, she notices that Dawn has come. "Look, Dawn comes." Anyone have any thoughts on this quote symmetry?

I've never posted in these threads before, however I have been a faithful reader and I am a big fan of Daenerys. She's always been my favorite character. Just wanted to throw some things out there to see if anyone noticed some of the same things I did. Sorry if it doesn't make any sense!

I think you might be thinking about my thread Exploring the Similarities between Daenerys and Bran. :D

This is a really excellent pickup, I'll have to add it to my list. ;)

Thank you... I really enjoyed reading some analyses of Bran and Daenerys on here a month or two ago, but I had never seen anybody make that connection - I didn't notice myself until I read the chapter again for this thread.

When Jojen tells Bran that "all cloaks are black," he's giving Bran negative reinforcement at that moment. Bran is hopeful that the men are men of the NW, thinking that they would not harm their group if they came upon them. But Jojen tells Bran that by night it is hard to tell a friend from a foe, which I believe is another recurring theme of the books ("the night is dark and full of terrors").

I'm not so sure about Daenerys' quote, however. She is looking at her city, and she is looking for the house with the red door "but by night, all doors are black." The same theme of "the night is dark and full of terrors."

Worth noting is that while Bran is told this, Daenerys comes to this realization by herself. Also worth noting is that Daenerys associates comfort and positivity with the red door the same way Bran does with the black cloaks/NW/Jon and Benjen - both are symbols of home, a home they've lost. Both Bran and Daenerys are denied this comfort at the moment... the comfort of belonging, perhaps. But while Bran is denied this comfort by external forces, Daenerys is denied this comfort by her own self. Those are just some quick thoughts on this parallel.

Excellent observation.

[Mladen]

Since I am joining this thread soon enough with Tyrion POV analyses, I thought of slowly starting to be part of debates.

I generally don't understand the "necessity" of the crucifixion. It was the greatest failure of Dany, speaking on any possible level, moral, leadership etc. For me, these crucifixions are in line with the deaths of Elia and her children. Basically, Dany did what Robert did. She punished someone for being born in certain clique or family. So, if we speak about "necessity" of this act, we can also speak of "necessity" of raping and killing women and children. That being said, this act wasn't necessary. Taking control, finding out the hierarchy in Meereen, learning who could have ordered the atrocity and punishing the guilty parties - that was necessary. What she did - wasn't, in any possible aspect.

It is beyond any reasonable doubt that Dany was heavily impacted with those bodies, and that she perceived what she is doing as justice. There is no doubt that she thought it would be the best. There is no malice or viciousness in her perception of that act. Alas, objectively speaking, we know better. Not only that it caused great deal of problems, act alone, as we will later see, didn't solve anything. Whatever message she tried to convey, well, it lost in translation.

[Julia H.]

Great posts.

Not wanting to rule may explain the lack of initial strategy, but it is hardly an excuse for handing out collective punishment. I wonder whether Dany would have been able to go through with the executions if she had followed the Stark way - if she had looked into the eyes of those she had sentenced to death, if she had listened to their final words and if she had wanted to kill them herself? Apparently she never found out anything about them.

What she did was vengeance, not justice.

I did it for the children.

I think this is a key sentence regarding Dany's psyche. She has lost a child and she believes she cannot have any more. The children she has avenged remind her of her own personal loss. Of course, she is the mother of dragons now, but the dragons never call her mother. The slaves do. I don't think the importance of that can be overestimated when discussing Dany's decisions here. Dany decides to stay, putting aside her plan to go to Westeros. To me, she is (among other things) a woman who will go to any lengths to become a mother. She is looking for a home, too, and perhaps she feels her home must be where her children are.

[BearQueen87]

Oh, Jorah, Jorah, Jorah....

Really, he had left Dnay no alternative but to banish him. His behavior towards her in the "throne room" gave her no other choice. He is lucky she only banished him and did not execute him as most other rulers would.

His familiarity with her (calling her Daenerys in front of everyone in the "throne room") was hugely disrespectful and showed he did not understand the gravity of how his actions had affected Dany, he was blinded by his love for her. In a way her more formal relationship with Ser Barristan allowed her to pardon his behavior much more easily than she could pardon Jorah. Their friendship and shared experiences made Jorah's behavior much more difficult to forgive because of the emotional attachment they had (have) towards each other. Plainly he failed to recognize that his betrayal was not just as an advisor but also as a friend and thus much more painful and harder to forgive.

While I do think that his familiarity is out of bounds because they are in the throne room, I don't think it was disrespectful on purpose. He's under the assumption that the familiarity between them, not only as friends but really at this point, family, will save him. He does come in with his head hanging down, a sign of guilt. He's banking on her affection for him and their mutual affection for each other. Should he have fallen to his knees and begged forgiveness? Yes, of course. But he's placed a lot of trust in Dany remembering what they are to each other. One of Dany's issues throughout her narrative is trying to combine her desire to be Queen with her desire to be a woman. We see this in the ASOS chapter in which Jorah kisses her on the ship--her reaction isn't disgust that he's kissing her, it's that he's responding to her as a man/woman instead of supplicant/Queen. She can't quite figure out how to react to being viewed as more than a Queen or Khaleesi--hence her reminding Jorah to call her "Your Grace" on several occasions, though prior in aGoT he often call her "child" with no rebuke. We see it later in ADWD with Daario, who wants only the Dragon Queen not the woman, despite the fact that Dany describes herself feeling more woman (and perhaps very tellingly) girl-like. And with Hizdhar, she must be Dany, the Queen and never the woman and Hizdhar makes her feel neither mature woman or giggly girl.

I also think that Jorah's actions after Barristan has "outted" him get underplayed sometimes. He took his punishment (being sent on a suicide mission in which Dany, as expressed in her internal thoughts, sorta hopes he dies so she doesn't have to face the betrayal) and then he came back. The affection the feel for each other coupled with the pound of flesh he pays in the sewers, he thinks will be enough. For Jorah, it's a bit like his first wife; he thinks all they need is each other and their love, but it's not enough. His wife always wants more. And here again, is a woman, asking more of him than he can or knows how to give. Jorah does need a big slice of humble pie (but that's coming to him soon enough) but Dany also needs to reconcile the Queen and the Woman in her.

[Parwan]

MMD isn't a slave but it still works for a case of someone that has lost everything and what they would do if given some sort of agency. My point is mostly based on the children having relatives and relationships to other slaves in the slave camp. Obviously many slaves have died over time but I'm pretty sure there was never a mass execution of slaves, otherwise what would be the point of having slaves. If there was a mass execution of slave children I'm pretty sure the slaves in a slave camp or anywhere at all would all hear about since it doesn't happen everyday. What would their mindset be after such executions? They would repulse their masters even more and if given some sort of agency there would be many that would take revenge given the chance. The 163 for 163 isn't just between Dany and the elite that ordered the executions, it speaks to the slaves aswell if nothing was done and all the nobles were pardoned the slaves wouldn't see their lives as equal as the nobles in Meereen, the method of execution is the thing that I go against mostly and the method of choosing the 163.

Taking revenge is a poor way to start ruling, but we have to keep in mind Dany wasn't planning on ruling Meereen at that point. If she was already planning on ruling Meereen I would say it was a very immature and poor decision but she was initially just going to take Meereen to provide supplies for her people, army etc. and continue her march to Westeros it was not until she heard news of Astapor did she decide to stay.

If she planned on ruling Meereen she might not had made that decision.

Given the horrible things that happen in Slaver's Bay (the steps taken to create the Unsullied being one example), I think that it's quite possible that there have been other examples of the large-scale torture/execution of slaves. Even if there haven't, I don't see why one example of horror would be that important for enslaved people. The cumulative suffering for decades and the prospect of continued suffering would be more than enough to create a desire for revenge. Besides, many of these people very likely experienced an event like the sacking of the Lhazareen town. That's an aspect of the slave system that is not well enough analyzed, either within the story or in posts on sites like this one. The system depends on the continuous enslavement of freeborn individuals. Some of the events would surely involve the deaths of more than 163 people. At any rate, I see no indication in the text that Dany thinks she is sending a message to the freedmen by killing 163 people. Nor do I see any indication that the freedmen think this number is important.

It's not clear to me that Dany had a definite idea of what she was going to do after she took Meereen. Maybe she meant to march on. Maybe she meant to stay for a while. It's likely that she didn't think about the matter; she just wanted to take the city. It comes to the same thing--poor planning.

Great analysis, Queen Alysanne. :)

I have more to add later, but I just wanted to address Dany's lack of planning first. It's a huge problem and ultimately means she's a step behind in her ruling of Meereen - she's constantly having to clean up problems rather than dealing with the causes of the problems. But whilst it's a valid criticism of her campaign in Slaver's Bay, I think we should use it to contextualise Dany's ruling of Meereen rather than constantly using it to point out the flaws in her leadership; it's a problem that shapes every action she makes in Slaver's Bay, but it doesn't necessarily mean the same will happen in the future (in fact, the opposite is more likely because of the experience she has gained). Dany lacked foresight when dealing with all three cities (although gradually less each time - by the time she reaches Meereen, she knows she has to take it or watch her followers starve), but in Meereen she doesn't ever expect to actually stay in the city. Her initial plan is simply to sack the city and clean up the mess she created before marching west. So when she's dealing out punishments to the Great Masters, it's because she never actually intended to have to work with them again. She wanted to send a message of her ruthlessness whilst also getting "justice" for the children they crucified. From a tactical point of view, she clearly made a bad decision as she begins to rely heavily on the Great Masters. But it is completely logical if we consider that her intentions were to leave the city behind.

...

I don't think the logic is solid, no matter what her intentions or those of her lieutenants and captains.

I go back to Jorah's ideas when he talked Dany into going to Astapor. The concept of acquiring Unsullied fighters was solid enough. The idea of marching across a continent wasn't. As far as I can tell, everyone goes to and from the cities of the bay by ship. No one takes the overland route. Saying that we don't hear about the Demon Road until later doesn't amount to much of an excuse. Jorah is supposed to be an adviser. Shouldn't he know about an important matter like this? Even if he doesn't, someone advising the queen should know about it. The matter isn't even brought up in discussions about how to proceed until after the Targaryen forces have taken Meereen and are debating what to do about the approaching enemy forces from Yunkai and other cities. This is a good reason for saying that the advice Dany got wasn't too good. Other matters have to be blamed more on her.

Jorah says that Dany went to Astapor to get an army, not to start a war. True, but she started a war. That is a fact that has to be dealt with, by Daenerys and her supporters. They are in a war. They have to presume that their enemies will fight. Leaving these enemies in fortified positions and marching off into the unknown is extremely bad strategy. Let's say that the dragon queen did plan to take Meereen and then march west. The crucifixions were still a blunder. She humiliates and brutalizes a ruling class. She fails to break their power. Then she marches on, leaving these people in control of a walled city with a port. Why wouldn't she see that she is giving her enemies more motivation to attack her as well as further opportunities to do so? Surely, they have ways to send information to the rulers of cities on her path. Obviously, they can bring in forces to attack her from the rear.

She does not know the road ahead. The only reasonable assumption is that she will face more enemies. The slave trade is important to Essos. She will be taking an army of freedmen through it. It is incredibly bad thinking to believe that she will not face further opposition. It is presuming far too much to believe that her enemies will become passive or that she will just have success after success. What if she has to retreat? How could that be anything but a disaster?

... Taking control, finding out the hierarchy in Meereen, learning who could have ordered the atrocity and punishing the guilty parties - that was necessary. What she did - wasn't, in any possible aspect.

It is beyond any reasonable doubt that Dany was heavily impacted with those bodies, and that she perceived what she is doing as justice. There is no doubt that she thought it would be the best. There is no malice or viciousness in her perception of that act. Alas, objectively speaking, we know better. Not only that it caused great deal of problems, act alone, as we will later see, didn't solve anything. Whatever message she tried to convey, well, it lost in translation.

That says it well, especially the "taking control" part. The Targaryen forces fail badly here. I'll have more to say on the matter later. "Lost in translation" is good too. Anyone who tries to communicate anything should remember a basic principle: It's not what you say that is important. It's what they hear. I don't think that Dany had her message well enough in mind. She certainly didn't understand her audience well enough.

[Lady of Dragonstone]

Excellent analysis, thanks Queen A!

The first envoy shows us how naive Dany had been in leaving her ruling council in Astapor without the appropriate military infrastructure to help maintain that newly created governing body. Her not being surprise at the news of the slave revolt of this council does show that she has learned a thing or two since the events of Astapor. It is an important lesson as a leader and ruler to understand the the ideal is not always the right solution. In the abstract a ruling council of wise men might seem like the appropriate leadership for a newly form society, however, Astapor like all of Slaver's Bay has been a heaven for violence against the oppressed, it is not hard to believe that these oppressed masses would then seek retribution once they had the means to do so. It is the same quandary that Dany finds and other's throughout the series find themselves in: justice vs. revenge.

<snip>

Really, he had left Dnay no alternative but to banish him. His behavior towards her in the "throne room" gave her no other choice. He is lucky she only banished him and did not execute him as most other rulers would.

His familiarity with her (calling her Daenerys in front of everyone in the "throne room") was hugely disrespectful and showed he did not understand the gravity of how his actions had affected Dany, he was blinded by his love for her. In a way her more formal relationship with Ser Barristan allowed her to pardon his behavior much more easily than she could pardon Jorah. Their friendship and shared experiences made Jorah's behavior much more difficult to forgive because of the emotional attachment they had (have) towards each other. Plainly he failed to recognize that his betrayal was not just as an advisor but also as a friend and thus much more painful and harder to forgive.

OTHER NOTES:

"The red priests believed in two gods, she had heard, but two who were eternally at war. Dany liked that even less. She would not want to be eternally at war."

​Dany understands that even though to conquer you must do war, she doesn't want to be always waring.

I think you might be thinking about my thread Exploring the Similarities between Daenerys and Bran. :D

This is a really excellent pickup, I'll have to add it to my list. ;)

Excellent observation.

Very nice analysis on the theme of justice vs. revenge. I think a lot of times some readers find Daenerys's story a bit disconnected from the rest of the novels, but it's important to note that her chapters do contain the same themes as the other materials, she's going through the same things. Daenerys should have known better than placing what you called the "ideal" setup (perfect term..) in Astapor upon departure.

I absolutely agree with you on Jorah. "We treat those we love the most, the worst." And so it is true for Daenerys, letting her emotions rule her in this decision as well.

Glad you pointed out the quote about the gods of the red religion. George is letting us know what Daenerys thinks about R'hllor and his red priests and we don't even have TWOW yet. The more you know...

Yes, MoIaF, it was your thread I was talking about, I enjoyed it very much. I'm pretty sure I've left a comment there quite a while back :) I deifnitely think it should be included in that thread.

I think this is a key sentence regarding Dany's psyche. She has lost a child and she believes she cannot have any more. The children she has avenged remind her of her own personal loss. Of course, she is the mother of dragons now, but the dragons never call her mother. The slaves do. I don't think the importance of that can be overestimated when discussing Dany's decisions here. Dany decides to stay, putting aside her plan to go to Westeros. To me, she is (among other things) a woman who will go to any lengths to become a mother. She is looking for a home, too, and perhaps she feels her home must be where her children are.

I think Dany's miscarriage has affected her, and that you're right about her wanting to become a mother above all. Losing her child, and believing she'll never conceive again...those are hard things to get through, and I think it has changed her psyche. Nice analysis...

[Mithras]

It was just. It was. I did it for the children.

“Ser Kevan. Forgive me if you can. I bear you no ill will. This was not done from malice. It was for the realm. For the children.”

I have children. I have a wife. Oh, Dorna.

[Mladen]

It was just. It was. I did it for the children.

“Ser Kevan. Forgive me if you can. I bear you no ill will. This was not done from malice. It was for the realm. For the children.”

I have children. I have a wife. Oh, Dorna.

Do these bolded lines have any sense other than to point us the correct usage of Adobe Reader's search function?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

While I do think that his familiarity is out of bounds because they are in the throne room, I don't think it was disrespectful on purpose. He's under the assumption that the familiarity between them, not only as friends but really at this point, family, will save him. He does come in with his head hanging down, a sign of guilt. He's banking on her affection for him and their mutual affection for each other. Should he have fallen to his knees and begged forgiveness? Yes, of course. But he's placed a lot of trust in Dany remembering what they are to each other. One of Dany's issues throughout her narrative is trying to combine her desire to be Queen with her desire to be a woman. We see this in the ASOS chapter in which Jorah kisses her on the ship--her reaction isn't disgust that he's kissing her, it's that he's responding to her as a man/woman instead of supplicant/Queen. She can't quite figure out how to react to being viewed as more than a Queen or Khaleesi--hence her reminding Jorah to call her "Your Grace" on several occasions, though prior in aGoT he often call her "child" with no rebuke. We see it later in ADWD with Daario, who wants only the Dragon Queen not the woman, despite the fact that Dany describes herself feeling more woman (and perhaps very tellingly) girl-like. And with Hizdhar, she must be Dany, the Queen and never the woman and Hizdhar makes her feel neither mature woman or giggly girl.

Great comparisons between Jorah and Daario. It's interesting that how Dany wants a man to view her (more of a woman than a Queen) is how Jorah views her but she doesn't want him, versus Daario who she wants but he sees her more of a Queen than a woman.

Very complex.

[BearQueen87]

Great comparisons between Jorah and Daario. It's interesting that how Dany wants a man to view her (more of a woman than a Queen) is how Jorah views her but she doesn't want him, versus Daario who she wants but he sees her more of a Queen than a woman.

Very complex.

Thanks :)

And I think one of Dany's overall character arcs is learning to reconcile being Queen and a woman. Dany grew up quite fast. She went from young girl on the run to sexualized bride over night. There was no in between for her. For me, Daario is her in between. She can giggle and worry about what dress to wear for him (which she does twice in ADWD), she gets tongue tied and feels silly and stupid around him, she can dream about their lives together in a little house all normal and perfect (which is almost hilarious when you think about Darrio's character as being a very sexualized man who enjoys two things: killing and screwing). If Dany and Daario were transplanted to the 21st century, Dany would be drawing little hearts around Daario's name in her notebook. He's the big man on campus; he's got swagger and a very obscene sword that titillates. But he does not love Dany, the woman. He loves the Dragon Queen; in most of their alone time in ADWD he calls her "queen" "sweet queen" ect, but we never hear him call her Dany. The one time we know that he does it, is in the throne room (Dany recalls it in one of her chapters) and she thinks he's over stepping and being presumptions as a way of--more or less-showing off.

As for Jorah and Dany what happens next with them is going to be interesting. BIG disclaimer: I am a huge Dany/Jorah supporter (ducks tomatoes). Dany wants to be Queen and a woman; Jorah wants her to be Queen of Westeros and rule because he believes in her, but he also sees her as a woman. So when they come back together (because of course they are...) their relationship going forward will be fun to read. Of all the men Dany has had in her life as potential or acutal romantic partners (Daario, Drogo, Hizadhr) it's Jorah that appears on the Dothraki Sea.

[Mithras]

Do these bolded lines have any sense other than to point us the correct usage of Adobe Reader's search function?

Some of the greatest evils are committed in the name of the children (whether intentionally or not) and other children suffer the consequences.

[PatrickStormborn]

Some of the greatest evils are committed in the name of the children (whether intentionally or not) and other children suffer the consequences.

Well, it's not really comparable to Varys, who killed Kevan so the war would continue, which would ultimately make more children suffer.

[Mithras]

Well, it's not really comparable to Varys, who killed Kevan so the war would continue, which would ultimately make more children suffer.

The end result is the same. The war didnot end in Meereen and the Harpy started to kill Dany's people. Not all the evil is done intentionally and with cold blood as Varys did.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Thanks :)

And I think one of Dany's overall character arcs is learning to reconcile being Queen and a woman. Dany grew up quite fast. She went from young girl on the run to sexualized bride over night. There was no in between for her. For me, Daario is her in between. She can giggle and worry about what dress to wear for him (which she does twice in ADWD), she gets tongue tied and feels silly and stupid around him, she can dream about their lives together in a little house all normal and perfect (which is almost hilarious when you think about Darrio's character as being a very sexualized man who enjoys two things: killing and screwing). If Dany and Daario were transplanted to the 21st century, Dany would be drawing little hearts around Daario's name in her notebook. He's the big man on campus; he's got swagger and a very obscene sword that titillates. But he does not love Dany, the woman. He loves the Dragon Queen; in most of their alone time in ADWD he calls her "queen" "sweet queen" ect, but we never hear him call her Dany. The one time we know that he does it, is in the throne room (Dany recalls it in one of her chapters) and she thinks he's over stepping and being presumptions as a way of--more or less-showing off.

As for Jorah and Dany what happens next with them is going to be interesting. BIG disclaimer: I am a huge Dany/Jorah supporter (ducks tomatoes). Dany wants to be Queen and a woman; Jorah wants her to be Queen of Westeros and rule because he believes in her, but he also sees her as a woman. So when they come back together (because of course they are...) their relationship going forward will be fun to read. Of all the men Dany has had in her life as potential or acutal romantic partners (Daario, Drogo, Hizadhr) it's Jorah that appears on the Dothraki Sea.

I agree about Daario. I alot of people don't like Daario but he is a really significant part of Dany's arc especially symbolically,and represents a lot of things relevant to Dany. When she always thinks of Daario its always connected to home, red door and escaping from reality like the time she wishes he steal her at sword point, so I fully agree about him being her in between.

In terms of Jorah and Dany, I actually see room for it (even though I'm not a big fan of it), even though Dany is not attracted to his physical features I think she is attracted to something about him and I think its more genuine then what she feels for Daario, she has thought about him being her husband before and his kiss was what awakened her sexually again and she expected him to be one of her riders before he betrayed her. And their story parallels the bear and the maiden fair more heavily than Brienne and Jaime or Sansa and Sandor. I also agree about your point, that Jorah was who she had a vision about on the Dothraki sea.