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KCenturion

(Spoilers) The History of the Westerlands

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@TheWolves: Yes, because Tytos would not respond to the challenges, which included skirmishes and the killing of Tytos' father in law.

Also, Tywin was real big on destroying the women and children of enemy houses - throwing babies down wells, off of battlements, and of course, killing the 300 women and children of the Reynes. All when he was 19.

He seems to be a complete sociopath.

Theon being 19 places this event in either 261AC or 262AC. Would you perhaps be able to identity the year? :)

And 300 women and children? That sounds like a lot.

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@TheWolves: Yes, because Tytos would not respond to the challenges, which included skirmishes and the killing of Tytos' father in law.

Also, Tywin was real big on destroying the women and children of enemy houses - throwing babies down wells, off of battlements, and of course, killing the 300 women and children of the Reynes. All when he was 19.

He seems to be a complete sociopath.

Yeah and some people argued he got like that after Joanna's death, Tywin has always been a monster. Tytos should have passed along the Lordship to Keven

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@TheWolves: Yes, because Tytos would not respond to the challenges, which included skirmishes and the killing of Tytos' father in law.

Also, Tywin was real big on destroying the women and children of enemy houses - throwing babies down wells, off of battlements, and of course, killing the 300 women and children of the Reynes. All when he was 19.

He seems to be a complete sociopath.

He seems to be - but he isn't. ICD 10 tells me that he isn't a sociopath.

Btw. ad OP: thanks for putting this thread up. =o)

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It really seems to be a complicated situation. Just like everyone else, Tywin was shaped by the people and circumstances around him.



But killing three-hundred innocent children is still a huge thing.



And Ellyn Reyne clearly was an ambitious woman. I completely understand why Gerold wanted to get rid of her.



On Maekar's death:



He was fighting at Starpike when he was killed, but which war was this? The Third Blackfyre Rebellion, the beginning of Fourth? Or did just the Peakes rise against him because they were pissed...?



The fact that something hit on the head was to be expected. Poetic justice... I'd be surprised if it turned out that the guy who threw the rock was supposed to be named Baelor...



Was there anything on the Westerlands during the Dance of the Dragons? How did Lord Jason Lannister die? What happened in the West during the Dance?


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Tytos' motto was "words are wind" as mentioned up thread, he let everyone walk all over him. He lent money that was never repaid. When the Ironborn reivers were combing the shores, he sent ravens to Quellon Greyjoy but was always ignored and laughed at.

I am not sure how much better Kevan would be, when Tywin set to restore power, Kevan led a band of thugs that set forth throughout the Westerlands to collect money or send hostages. The Reines laughed at Kevan's demands.

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@TheWolves: Yes, because Tytos would not respond to the challenges, which included skirmishes and the killing of Tytos' father in law.

Also, Tywin was real big on destroying the women and children of enemy houses - throwing babies down wells, off of battlements, and of course, killing the 300 women and children of the Reynes. All when he was 19.

He seems to be a complete sociopath.

Tytos' father in law got killed.. by a Reyne or a Tarbeck by any chance?

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Tytos' motto was "words are wind" as mentioned up thread, he let everyone walk all over him. He lent money that was never repaid. When the Ironborn reivers were combing the shores, he sent ravens to Quellon Greyjoy but was always ignored and laughed at.

I am not sure how much better Kevan would be, when Tywin set to restore power, Kevan led a band of thugs that set forth throughout the Westerlands to collect money or send hostages. The Reines laughed at Kevan's demands.

I think Kevan would have been a good Lord of the Rock.

Tywin is extreme killing hundreds of women and children whose only "offense" was probably having the name of Tarback and Reyne or being part if their bannermen or their servants.

My hate for Tywin and his family just went up 1000 notches.

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So, why did Tywin reject Reynes' offer of surrender? Did he just want to kill them all or were the terms merely not good enough from his PoV?

The whole affair seems to have been more savage than I expected... but of course Tywin needed to set some frightening examples after nearly 2 decades of weak rule. Still, he went seriously overboard, it seems to me.

Also, he wasn't actually that young during this affair. 19 is hardly "half-grown" - Ned and Robert were around that age during the Rebellion. Odd that Tywin apparently wasn't yet married, either.

Was there some fighting against the Ironborn, too?

Any word on Tygett, Genna or Gerion at this time?

According to Genna in AFFC or ADwD, Tygett was with Tywin when Castle Tarbeck fell.

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I'd also like to know how this campaign actually began.



Tytos was still Lord of Casterly Rock. Did he allow his son to do this, or did Tywin treat his father the same way (apparently) everyone else did? Was there a sort of recognizable agenda on the Reyne/Tarbeck side to overthrow the Lannisters of Casterly Rock? Or was it just this 'we can do whatever the hell we want because our liege lord is a weakling' thing?



Was the Iron Throne involved in any of this. If I'm not mistaken then this must have happened during the reign of Jaehaerys II. Was everyone away/occupied with the War of the Ninepenny King, so that Tywin could pull off such a thing?



Technically such a thing should be laid before the Iron Throne, shouldn't it? And if Tywin did not have a mandate from his father to deal with the rebels the way he did, the Crown could have demanded his head, if a relative of the Reynes/Tarbecks had accused him in KL...


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Perhaps it occured in 262AC, shortly before Jaehaerys' death, so that when it was time to actually deal with the consequences, Aerys was in power, and Aerys was impressed by it, not angered, and promoted Tywin.

Tywins marriage taking place later also align, dice Aerys' comment about the first night then makes sense (while, if Jaehaerys had been king when Tywin got married, Aerys' comment on the lords right would not have made much sense, imo)

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I'd also like to know how this campaign actually began.

Tytos was still Lord of Casterly Rock. Did he allow his son to do this, or did Tywin treat his father the same way (apparently) everyone else did? Was there a sort of recognizable agenda on the Reyne/Tarbeck side to overthrow the Lannisters of Casterly Rock? Or was it just this 'we can do whatever the hell we want because our liege lord is a weakling' thing?

Was the Iron Throne involved in any of this. If I'm not mistaken then this must have happened during the reign of Jaehaerys II. Was everyone away/occupied with the War of the Ninepenny King, so that Tywin could pull off such a thing?

Technically such a thing should be laid before the Iron Throne, shouldn't it? And if Tywin did not have a mandate from his father to deal with the rebels the way he did, the Crown could have demanded his head, if a relative of the Reynes/Tarbecks had accused him in KL...

I don't think this is an issue for the Iron Throne because the Reynes and Tarbacks are the Lannisters direct vessels, and the Iron Throne would only deal with those bannermen through the Great Lords.

And I suspect any involvement from the Iron Throne that is short of helping the Lannisters would result in a problem between the Lannisters and the Targaryens.

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So does this firmly place Tywins dob around 243 AL? If so, it'd make Gennas 246, and Kevan either 244 or 245. Tygett and Gerion if course would be born post 246. Tygetts don couldn't be too much after 246 though, given he was with Tywin when Tarbeck Hall was destroyed.

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The wiki states that Tywin was born in 242 AC. That would mean that the Reyne/Tarbeck happened around the year 261 AC, since Tywin supposedly was 19 when it happened.



Cersei/Jaime were one-year-olds when Tytos died (apparently in 267 AC), and Tywin already served as Aerys' Hand at that point, so it's indeed possible that he was not yet married during the rebellion.



This makes it very likely that Aerys was already king when Joanna married Tywin, and this would also explain the presence of Barristan Selmy there - I'm not sure he would necessarily have accompanied Prince Aerys to Casterly Rock, but it's very likely that the whole royal family - including all Kingsguard - were guests at the wedding if Aerys was already king.



On the vassal thing:



I really don't know how the legal case is in this situation. Technically it should be an internal affair, but it's not really clear whether Tywin was allowed to do what he did. More importantly, the Iron Throne should have had an interest in this affair since it seems to more a fully blown civil war rather than a rebellion involving few people.



Such a thing could spread and should thus catch the attention of the Iron Throne.


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The Reynes started stealing land from others and Tytos didn't punish them. Word got to the King and he told Tytos to deal with it. That's when he sent his father in law to do something about it, but their forces were destroyed in the night by the Reynes, who then told Tytos it was an accident because they thought in the dark they were attacking outlaws. That is when Tywin got his forces together and conveniently forgot to tell his father what he was doing, his father being hidden away in Casterly rock with his lover (a nurse maid).

The surrender of the Reynes was rejected because it was a piss poor surrender, full of sarcasm, because they were convinced that they could hide away in their underground fortress for three years of a siege. Tywin ignored it, I assumed, because it was offensive but also because it was too late at that stage. After Tarbeck hall was destroyed there was a battle with the Red Lion, who was injured and had to retreat back to Castamere. Too much shit had happened and Tywin was clearly more interested in wiping them out.

And just a few days later, there were no more Reynes.

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So does this firmly place Tywins dob around 243 AL? If so, it'd make Gennas 246, and Kevan either 244 or 245. Tygett and Gerion if course would be born post 246. Tygetts don couldn't be too much after 246 though, given he was with Tywin when Tarbeck Hall was destroyed.

No, Tywin is born in 242AC (explanation underneath the spoiler tag, working on a page to explain it all on the wiki ;) )

All that Tywin's age during the Tarbeck/Reyne thing means is that we can place the event better than before.

Tywin Lannister is said to have been 10 when his sister Genna was 7. In addition, Tywin was 20 years old when he was named Hand of the King by King Aerys in 262AC.This means that Tywin was either:

· 19 turning 20 in 262 AC, placing his birth in 242AC

· 20 turning 21 in 262 AC, placing his birth in 241AC

This shows that Tywin was born in either 241AC or 242AC.

When Tywin was 10 years old, his sister Genna was 7, and her husband-to-be was 14.

Tywin’s two possible years of birth give Tywin the following moments for being 10 years old:

· Having been born in 241 AC

o Being 9 turning 10 in 251 AC

o Being 10 turning 11 in 252 AC

· Having been born in 242 AC

o Being 9 turning 10 in 252 AC

o Being 10 turning 11 in 253 AC

Comparing this to the moments where Genna Lannister could have been 7 years old (see Genna Lannister) while her husband-to-be was 14 years old:

· She was 7 when Emmon was 14 in 253 AC

o 6 turning 7 in 253 AC

o 7 turning 8 in 253 AC

· She was 7 when Emmon was 14 in 254 AC

o 6 turning 7 in 254 AC

o 7 turning 8 in 254 AC

· She was 7 when Emmon was 14 in 255 AC

o 6 turning 7 in 255 AC

o 7 turning 8 in 255 AC

The overlapping year is 253AC. For Tywin, this means that he was 10 turning 11 in 253AC, placing his birth in 242AC.

245AC and 246AC are the two possible birth years for Genna. With Kevan having been 55 in 300AC, he could have been born in either 245AC or 244AC. If Kevan was born in 245AC, Genna will have been born in 246AC. If Kevan was born in 244AC, both options remain open for Genna.

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The Reynes started stealing land from others and Tytos didn't punish them. Word got to the King and he told Tytos to deal with it. That's when he sent his father in law to do something about it, but their forces were destroyed in the night by the Reynes, who then told Tytos it was an accident because they thought in the dark they were attacking outlaws. That is when Tywin got his forces together and conveniently forgot to tell his father what he was doing, his father being hidden away in Casterly rock with his lover (a nurse maid).

The surrender of the Reynes was rejected because it was a piss poor surrender, full of sarcasm, because they were convinced that they could hide away in their underground fortress for three years of a siege. Tywin ignored it, I assumed, because it was offensive but also because it was too late at that stage. After Tarbeck hall was destroyed there was a battle with the Red Lion, who was injured and had to retreat back to Castamere. Too much shit had happened and Tywin was clearly more interested in wiping them out.

And just a few days later, there were no more Reynes.

And that explains why Tywin wasn't punished.

Was the King Jaehaerys? or Aerys in the first few months of his reign?

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I guess it was Jaehaerys. He supposedly was 'a weak king', but much sterner than Hizdahr, according to Barristan, so I guess written a letter and commanding his Warden of the West to deal with the situation would be the kind of thing Jaehaerys would do. Egg would have dispatched someone to investigate the whole thing, and help dealing with situation I imagine, and Aerys really seems to have appointed Tywin at once after his coronation. He pretty much fired all the all done men who had still been leftovers from his grandfather's reign.



LugaJetboyGirl-irra,



anything more on the whole Maekar and Blackfyre rebellion thing? Or interesting tidbits throughout the centuries of the long Lannister reign (both as Kings of the Rock and during the Targaryen era)?


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Apparently, a huge rock crushed Maekar that is hurled from the battlements at Starpike and that's how he died.

Isn't that how Isildur's brother dies in the Silmarillion?

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