(BOOK SPOILERS) Discussing Sansa XI: Lies and Arbor Gold

[voodooqueen126]

Well, I have a friend who watches the show who has not read the books and that was his guess. His reasoning was that they had been having an affair on and off for quite some time, that Robin and Petyr seem fond of each other, that he killed Lysa to protect Robin as well as Sansa and that his endgame is to secure the Vale for his son. He was just wondering if he was barking up the wrong tree and I told him that some people who read the books think its possible. I don't really subscribe to this at this point but it does make some sense.

well there was a moment when LF was telling Sweet Robin that he could grow up despite being sickly... that I thought he was about to say "I was a sickly little boy, and look at me now"

[Florina Laufeyson]

Add to it all her lies about her father and how she had to appease Cersei & co. at her father's trial with lies, and halftruths... Now she uses honesty, and wins it!

Great Catch! :agree:

:cheers: Yeap. Her honesty is peppered with halftruths and its really interesting.

Well, I have a friend who watches the show who has not read the books and that was his guess. His reasoning was that they had been having an affair on and off for quite some time, that Robin and Petyr seem fond of each other, that he killed Lysa to protect Robin as well as Sansa and that his endgame is to secure the Vale for his son. He was just wondering if he was barking up the wrong tree and I told him that some people who read the books think its possible. I don't really subscribe to this at this point but it does make some sense.

Well, i know in the book forums, theres a theory about that. I was just wondering how the show was hinting at it. (while not the worst out there in terms of theories, im just not a fan) I dunno..thats kind of i dunno. #ambivalent

[1234567]

I suspect the talk D&D had with GRRM earlier last year may have made them realize they have to hurry up with her character development which has been largely ignored and muddled in season 3. Also she may have a lot of material in TWOW and ADOS, or D&D have a lot of "cool" filler they have dreamed up.

Also D&D are not good at subtle characterization, so they have Sansa turn in one episode. In fact they should have had her singing "Let it Go" while she was sewing her new dress.

[We Pay Our Debts]

I'm not going to read the entire thread (fun as it might be), but man, did they change absolutely everything now!

They didn't just streamline Feast, they fucking skipped it and jumped right at WoW instead!

Robin is going, LF is practically declaring war against the Iron Throne, Sansa is Maleficent...I mean, just give us Harry the Heir in the next episode and be done with it!

Yet Ygritte and Balon Greyjoy are still alive.

[TeamLemonCakeBraavos]

Phew! Man. I go eat some Salmon and come back to 12 more pages. Ok, so, now that I'm caught up...

Let me throw out a question. Does anyone else suspect Littlefinger is going to be dead by the end of the season?

Maybe that death is coming sooner than we think.

You know, that thought occurred to me this morning; that perhaps Petyr dies in episode 10. And while I think that's entirely possible, I don't think its plausible. I think he'll still serve some sort of purpose to her storyline even if it is ultimately to make her a killer (meaning, she kills him). I do agree though, that his death will probably come sooner rather than later,

Well, I have to say that they kinda killed book!Sansa in the show here, but booooooy how I loved this episode. I've separated book from show some time ago, so I don't really mind what they did in this episode. Sansa is becoming a player, and a lot faster than we think. I honestly haven't seen any negative comment about Sansa with regards to this episode (not on Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr etc.) which makes me more happy than it should.

We must follow very different people on Tumblr. A couple of people I follow are having kittens. Granted, I think it has a lot to do with the utter disapproval of the potential Sansa/Petyr 'seduction' storyline, but I also think it has a lot to do with upholding some sort of innocent/virginal/angelic/ideal Sansa that they've built up in their minds. And while I understand the desire to keep her "good" (because I desperately want that myself), I'm not of the opinion that these changes make her "bad". On the contrary, I think it gives her control over the events of her life and whether she sinks or swims, at least she'll have died trying. See, I've heard a lot of reasons as to why people don't like Sansa but the most consistent complaint has always been her lack of....'fight'. She's passive. The perpetual 'damsel in distress'. This change of character/personality has really served to kind of put those complaints to bed and more importantly, it has given both breath and depth to the argument that a lot of Sansa fans--and even Sophie Turner herself--have made; that a person can be 'badass' and have power without ever needing to wield a sword.

But for the rest of this season, Sansa's storyline will be pure plot development and no more major drama.

I don't know. I'm taking a wait and see approach. Ok. So, now that we all know that Sophie wasn't 'trolling' in all of her interviews/comments regarding this season....there's something she's said that makes me think we might yet get something big in episode 10. In a recent interview Sophie said something about the finale being huge and "hopeful". That word sticks out to me the way her saying "seduction" stuck out to me previously. "Hopeful"? What's there to be hopeful about? So! As is my wont, let me launch into my first bought of speculation. I think the finale will have a vision. One of Bran's visions. And that vision will give us a glimpse into some of the 'endgame' scenarios for "The Children" (i.e. The Stark kids, Tyrion/Jamie/Cersei, the Dragon, etc). Also, Sophie has said that she's a "Dark Horse". I'm not sure if that means something different in the UK, but over here, I associate that term with an underdog in either sports or politics seemingly "coming out of nowhere" and winning the whole damn thing. So.....maybe.....a Bran vision of Sansa on the Throne (or in some sort of position of power)? I'm leaning towards this speculation.

...theres a reason they fast forwarded her. We'll find out next season.

Indeed we will. And I'm cautiously optimistic about it. :)

Their power dynamic has completely shifted.

And that is the greatest thing in the world to me. :drool: I mean, it gives Sansa the upper-hand (which is something she has never had throughout the whole series) and it finally makes the story about HER. This is HER storyline now. It's not Petyr's, it's not King's Landing, it's not anyone else's. Its hers. And that the majority of people are COMPLETELY into and riveted by it (finally) gives me a sense of vindication, you know what I mean? Like...yeah...she's amazing. She's always been. I'm glad you guys are finally catching on and seeing it.

I've read the books but one thing I never could understand is who Alayne is supposed to be, is she going to be Petyr's protege? Please tell me that Sansa is not going to be another Cersei... I can't bare it, I love Sansa, but seeing her in all black and lying just made me sad ...

This right now is probably my biggest 'secret' fear. That she'll end up becoming another Cersei. As of right now though, I'm convincing myself that it's, "possible, but not probable".

On the plus side, the power balance shift means no LF foisting kisses and such on Sansa. No daddy/daughter roleplaying, either. Less child molesting is always a good thing.

Sansa revealing herself to the Vale lords was a neat bit of insurance. If LF acts up or something happens to him, she can go crying to the lords for protection, and if the Vale lords act up or try to sell her out, she can fall back on LF.

Also, Sansa effectively disarmed LF by taking away his source of power over her: that he was her only protector and the one who could expose her secret. She "shot the hostage," essentially, by pulling the Sansa Stark trigger on her own terms to maintain control rather than waiting for someone to pull it for her.

Have I ever described my secret love and affection for you? Because it's there. Ohhhhhhh, it's there. :cool4: THIS (your post). All of THIS. :agree:

[We Pay Our Debts]

I might be in the minority, but I hated the portrayal of Sansa in this episode. She completely changed into a different character in the snap of a fingers. And she looks like freaking Maleficient, when she's supposed to blend in the background. I'm not surprised. D&D have no idea what the definition of subtlety is.

And having Sansa reveal her identity was stupid as fuck. Ugh. And she only dyes her hair now? That makes no sense. Nothing in this show makes no sense.

[Arya Stark Rules]

I might be in the minority, but I hated the portrayal of Sansa in this episode. She completely changed into a different character in the snap of a fingers. And she looks like freaking Maleficient, when she's supposed to blend in the background. I'm not surprised. D&D have no idea what the definition of subtlety is.

And having Sansa reveal her identity was stupid as fuck. Ugh. And she only dyes her hair now? That makes no sense. Nothing in this show makes no sense.

The feathers need to go, it makes her look evil tbh

[Florina Laufeyson]

but I also think it has a lot to do with upholding some sort of innocent/virginal/angelic/ideal Sansa that they've built up in their minds.

I actually have a really big problem with Sansa fans who do that. A really big one. "Shes so sweet, she cant get her hands dirty, blah blah blah."

Yeah no. In the World of Crapsack, even the sweetest person gets their hands dirty and takes off the kid gloves. Sometimes even the most moral must do something questionable.

[We Pay Our Debts]

The feathers need to go, it makes her look evil tbh

They might as well make her wear black lipstick while they're at it.

[ground_control]

Adressing 3, I thought she was wearing the dark dress because she was in mourning for Lysa Arryn. While I think the dress did serve a symbolic purpose, it represents her deception in covering up the truth about her Aunts death among other things, there is a practical reason for her to be wearing a black dress, she is nominally Petyrs niece and ward and Lysa was his wife.

That's possible, but based on the comments I've seen, nobody really knows, so it seems to me like something was missing from the scene. There were three separate scenes at the Eyrie, and that was the conclusion of the last one, so I think it's a valid complaint if nobody really knows what it was supposed to mean.

[TeamLemonCakeBraavos]

I actually have a really big problem with Sansa fans who do that. A really big one. "Shes so sweet, she cant get her hands dirty, blah blah blah."

Yeah no. In the World of Crapsack, even the sweetest person gets their hands dirty and takes off the kid gloves. Sometimes even the most moral must do something questionable.

You're absolutely right. 100%. Someone once said that if Sansa was going to make it to the end, she was going to have to engage in some questionable things. And that's true. Hell, I think that's true for EVERY character, not just Sansa. I'm not sure why there's an opinion that Sansa is going to be 'spared' or protected from terrible things when literally, NO ONE ELSE has been. And to clarify...that doesn't mean that I think she'll turn evil, or that she'll start sleeping with half of Westeros, but I do think it means that we're going to see exactly what we saw...a 'mature' Sansa who is more than willing to use her feminine charms and seduction to get to what SHE wants.

As a side, I've read some horrified reactions from certain people (not on this forum). As if this change is COMPLETELY a fanfic of D&D. I'm confused by this perspective. I mean, wasn't her Book character headed in that direction anyways? Except, she was supposed to "seduce" Harry. So, why is it horrific for TV Sansa but perfectly acceptable for Book Sansa? Or is this just a, "What D&D writes is of the DEVIL! But if GRRM writes the same exact thing...it's a masterful work of art"?

[Florina Laufeyson]

You're absolutely right. 100%. Someone once said that if Sansa was going to make it to the end, she was going to have to engage in some questionable things. And that's true. Hell, I think that's true for EVERY character, not just Sansa. I'm not sure why there's an opinion that Sansa is going to be 'spared' or protected from terrible things when literally, NO ONE ELSE has been. And to clarify...that doesn't mean that I think she'll turn evil, or that she'll start sleeping with half of Westeros, but I do think it means that we're going to see exactly what we saw...a 'mature' Sansa who is more than willing to use her feminine charms and seduction to get to what SHE wants.

As a side, I've read some horrified reactions from certain people (not on this forum). As if this change is COMPLETELY a fanfic of D&D. I'm confused by this perspective. I mean, wasn't her Book character headed in that direction anyways? Except, she was supposed to "seduce" Harry. So, why is it horrific for TV Sansa but perfectly acceptable for Book Sansa? Or is this just a, "What D&D writes is of the DEVIL! But if GRRM writes the same exact thing...it's a masterful work of art"?

Bolded, yikes. People actually assume that? Says more about them than the character. I doubt Sansa is gonna let go of her maidenhead any time soon. She certainly isnt gonna give it up to a chump like Littlefinger.

And you touched on the book-reader elitism which is a festering boil on the backside of the fandom. :ack: Sansa aint gonna be like Cersei. She might not even be like Marg. Shes gonna be her own creature and shes gonna watch everything. Sansa knows should be a meme.

[teemo]

I hate that she's his niece instead of daughter. Being a bastard humbled Sansa a bit, so I don't like that change. Also, her giving up her identity to those people is a pretty huge book deviation. LF had her manipulated in a way that she would never do that. Hated this scene. And Turner is not that great of an actress. Mediocre at best.

[SerMixalot]

I was just thinking, how could Sansa NOT know that LF betrayed her father. I mean that was a huge occurrence, she was in KL, how could she not know about it. I am rereading ACOK right now and will have to keep an eye out for it.

[Frostking]

Sansa's growth in the books is too slow but this is too fast.

[juanml82]

I was just thinking, how could Sansa NOT know that LF betrayed her father. I mean that was a huge occurrence, she was in KL, how could she not know about it. I am rereading ACOK right now and will have to keep an eye out for it.

Ned sends LF to Slynt. LF takes a detour to Cersei's chambers and goes to Slynt with a different proposal. Nobody outside the Small Council will know LF's role in Slynt's decision.

LF puts a dagger in Ned's throat while Ned attempts to arrest Cersei. All Stark soldiers are killed, Ned is never allowed to speak with Sansa. The only ones who know are the rank and file goldcloaks, who might not even know who Littlefinger is, the Kingsguard, Slynt, Cersei and Joffrey.

Oh, and the Hound. As in, that guy who's agonizing at the Vale, who likes Sansa and hates liars like Littlefinger.

[juanml82]

Sansa's growth in the books is too slow but this is too fast.

I don't know. If we disregard the second half of season three when they dumb her down (should we, though?) it really seems a progression. See her interactions with Littlefinger in Season 3 and how her interactions develop through Season 4.

We should also remember that her context was changed. During Season 2 and 3, she was a prisoner, even if it was only shown by a bunch of Lannister guards barely visible at the edge of the frame. Once she reaches the Eyre, she's no longer a prisoner. She doesn't need to hide her feelings when looking at Joffrey and smile when she'd rather have them all killed. And she doesn't want to be a prisoner again. She's free now.

[TheReal_Rebel]

Bolded, yikes. People actually assume that? Says more about them than the character. I doubt Sansa is gonna let go of her maidenhead any time soon. She certainly isnt gonna give it up to a chump like Littlefinger.

And you touched on the book-reader elitism which is a festering boil on the backside of the fandom. :ack: Sansa aint gonna be like Cersei. She might not even be like Marg. Shes gonna be her own creature and shes gonna watch everything. Sansa knows should be a meme.

Y'know, folks, Sansa may have seduced LF without losing her virginity.

[ahighbornlady]

Truth. She could be trying to get him to make a move on her. But this is also not a good move, at least not now. She could kill him while his guard is down (i.e. when he makes his move on her): this would be easier to explain (especially considering how well her waterworks worked on the Vale Lords before) and rationalize to herself, as she would not be directly proactive (such as poisoning him). On the other hand it will be unpredictably timed because a lot depends on his actions - no guarantee that her plan would work and she would lose her virginity. I think if she wanted to make a move and vamp it up she should wait until he consolidates the Vale/Riverlands behind her, marries her to Robin. Its too soon to start seducing before she has a backup plan, particularly as he seems very receptive already.

BTW I don't think she wants him - she knows he murdered twice and uses people pretty cruelly, I just don't see it b/c she is a romantic at heart, but you never know he might appear sympathetic later and she breaks.

You have to remember that as far as she's concerned, he murdered those people to protect her. She seems him as brave and bold, not evil. Why does everyone think she's going to kill him? I don't see that happeneing unless she finds out about his involvement in her father's death, and how would she even find out? Who's going to tell her? Cersei? People are projecting their own hate for LF onto Sansa. Sorry but there is no way she's plotting his demise at this point.

[Huck]

Y'know, folks, Sansa may have seduced LF without losing her virginity.

True. And I strongly believe neither Littlefinger nor Sansa think that Sansa losing her maidenhead now would be wise: she can only prove that her marriage to Tyrion was not consummated and can thus be annulled if it is still intact; and we now that Septons check.