(BOOK SPOILERS) Discussing Sansa XI: Lies and Arbor Gold

[Good Guy Garlan]

We see in the books how LF is seemingly getting the Lords Declarant on his pocket one by one. Except Royce. He basically tells LF that he's not buying his shit

But in the show he seems to accept him rather easily

What do you think? Does it mean Royce is not really going to be a threat for LF in WoW or do you think the show will backtrack and portray him later as LF's antagonist? Or is he faking?

[Joseph Nobles]

I doubt Royce's opinion of Littlefinger has changed much in the TV show. For Sansa's sake, they have accepted the story of Lysa's death - but if either Sansa or Robin turned up dead one day, none of the Lords of the Vale would put up with Littlefinger a second longer. But Littlefinger fell through the Moon Door? No one would shed a tear.

[TheReal_Rebel]

True. And I strongly believe neither Littlefinger nor Sansa think that Sansa losing her maidenhead now would be wise: she can only prove that her marriage to Tyrion was not consummated and can thus be annulled if it is still intact; and we now that Septons check.

Exactly the point! It 's a way of keeping him safely satiated, which is likely in accordance with LF's own plans while Sansa makes plans of her own.

I also had this thought re the HBO show, that in the show version LF believes Robert Robyn Arryn is HIS son. Which would explain the apparent affection they have for each other. Robert in the book is more afraid and doesn't like LF.

I doubt Royce's opinion of Littlefinger has changed much in the TV show. For Sansa's sake, they have accepted the story of Lysa's death - but if either Sansa or Robin turned up dead one day, none of the Lords of the Vale would put up with Littlefinger a second longer. But Littlefinger fell through the Moon Door? No one would shed a tear.

agreed!

[High without honor]

Ned sends LF to Slynt. LF takes a detour to Cersei's chambers and goes to Slynt with a different proposal. Nobody outside the Small Council will know LF's role in Slynt's decision.

LF puts a dagger in Ned's throat while Ned attempts to arrest Cersei. All Stark soldiers are killed, Ned is never allowed to speak with Sansa. The only ones who know are the rank and file goldcloaks, who might not even know who Littlefinger is, the Kingsguard, Slynt, Cersei and Joffrey.

Oh, and the Hound. As in, that guy who's agonizing at the Vale, who likes Sansa and hates liars like Littlefinger.

She heard Lysa saying something about poisoning "someone". She could peace it together herself eventually.

[High without honor]

Exactly the point! It 's a way of keeping him safely satiated, which is likely in accordance with LF's own plans while Sansa makes plans of her own.

I also had this thought re the HBO show, that in the show version LF believes Robert Robyn Arryn is HIS son. Which would explain the apparent affection they have for each other. Robert in the book is more afraid and doesn't like LF.

agreed!

I doubt it is his son, maybe he has some affection for "sick little boys" because of his past. But that is so out of character for LF.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I doubt Royce's opinion of Littlefinger has changed much in the TV show. For Sansa's sake, they have accepted the story of Lysa's death - but if either Sansa or Robin turned up dead one day, none of the Lords of the Vale would put up with Littlefinger a second longer. But Littlefinger fell through the Moon Door? No one would shed a tear.

Agreed, but I think the show was kinda implying that Royce accepted LF's plot to go against the Lannisters

[juanml82]

She heard Lysa saying something about poisoning "someone". She could peace it together herself eventually.

So? Her father wasn't poisoned. As far as she knows, Jon Arryn died a natural death. And even if she realizes, somehow, that Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn, what is it to Sansa? She doesn't know Ned went to KL to investigate Jon's death. She doesn't know he was put on the trail of the bastards and the incests by Lysa's letter and LF's machinations. All she knows is that Ned appeared to claim that Joffrey and the boys were bastards and she probably heard that Stannis made the same claim.

Unless she meets the Hound, or Cersei spills everything, I don't think she has a way to realize what happened.

[TheReal_Rebel]

I doubt it is his son, maybe he has some affection for "sick little boys" because of his past. But that is so out of character for LF.

I don't believe he is LF's son, but in the show, I think Lysa might have lead LF to believe he is. So he would have an attachment & loyalty to her son.

Agreed, but I think the show was kinda implying that Royce accepted LF's plot to go against the Lannisters

I think they 're in line with preparing the Vale and Robyn, while staying out of war as long as they can.

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

This is what happens when you publish only three Sansa chapters in fourteen years.

+10.

GRRM sat on his arse for too long -- the show will take Sansa into a character arc that inevitably and necessarily will progress differently than the books.

Season 5 will begin filming in late summer, which means a different arc for Sansa is a done deal.

Edited: I like the game-player, Malificent Sansa take of the show. Her performance before the Vale lords puts her into Fooking Legend territory.

[shadowfire]

You have to remember that as far as she's concerned, he murdered those people to protect her. She seems him as brave and bold, not evil. Why does everyone think she's going to kill him? I don't see that happeneing unless she finds out about his involvement in her father's death, and how would she even find out? Who's going to tell her? Cersei? People are projecting their own hate for LF onto Sansa. Sorry but there is no way she's plotting his demise at this point.

The first time she questioned him on the murder, he told her that he could not trust Joffrey and basically implied that he needed new allies that were predictable. She says "Who could trust you?". She is basically suspicious of him, he's not brave and bold, he's just a shady guy. Not to mention he framed her for murder. The next episode (I feel she forces his hand here...) he confesses he killed Joffrey because he loved her mother. That was a revenge kill per his explanation, not protecting Sansa. His daddy kiss prompts Lysa to go crazy. Instead of calming her down or sending Sansa away, he manipulates and kills Lysa.

I think she realizes his attraction for her and his need for more power and decides that instead of manipulating pity (like she did to Lysa, Vale Lords), she will try to control him through sex.

I think she does not want him to make any advance. In which case her vamping is a bad play. He is already doing everything she wants - protecting her, building allegiances, without her needing to gamble particularly as she would need proof of virginity to annul her marriage to Tyrion. She is just making herself more vulnerable.

Other people said that she is deliberately stoking his lust. I don't think she wants him or wants to lose her virginity to him. The only other thing would be to kill him off when its convenient. But again, in my view she doesn't not want him to make an advance.

[Raksha 2014]

I have no objection to the concept of Sansa making some moral compromises in order to survive and thrive; she cannot stay innocent forever. But how far will those compromises go? If Sansa goes along with Littlefinger's poisoning Robin and does nothing to try to save the boy, that's too far. If Sansa is forced or coerced into having oral sex with Littlefinger, and goes along with it and says nothing, that's too far. If she decides to have oral sex with Littlefinger to strengthen her hold on him or have him do something specific for her (not because she's interested in having oral sex), I would think less of Sansa.

I don't think Arya's becoming a Faceless Assassin makes her badass, I think the transformation is shocking and sad; a child as strong and brave and honorable as Arya becoming a hired murderer because she is orphaned and abandoned and can't think of another way to survive after all she has seen and done. If Sansa becomes a sophisticated vamp who survives by having sex with power brokers to get ahead, I will be saddened. If she becomes a sophisticated vamp who uses her wits and charms to get ahead, without having to trade her body to men she does not love or like, I will cheer; and hope she will one day get a position of power or at least security.

For now, TV-Sansa has achieved a certain respite; in that she has some say in her own fate, for the first time in years; and I think she is reveling in freedom from fear and finding that sensation rather heady, almost aphrodisiac. Let's see whether the little bird can fly or if she will be caught be caught by a more predatory flyer.

[High without honor]

So? Her father wasn't poisoned. As far as she knows, Jon Arryn died a natural death. And even if she realizes, somehow, that Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn, what is it to Sansa? She doesn't know Ned went to KL to investigate Jon's death. She doesn't know he was put on the trail of the bastards and the incests by Lysa's letter and LF's machinations. All she knows is that Ned appeared to claim that Joffrey and the boys were bastards and she probably heard that Stannis made the same claim.

Unless she meets the Hound, or Cersei spills everything, I don't think she has a way to realize what happened.

There is still Varys who knows about it. At least in the show LF and Varys will meet again I believe.

[Lee-Sensei]

I doubt Royce's opinion of Littlefinger has changed much in the TV show. For Sansa's sake, they have accepted the story of Lysa's death - but if either Sansa or Robin turned up dead one day, none of the Lords of the Vale would put up with Littlefinger a second longer. But Littlefinger fell through the Moon Door? No one would shed a tear.

You think they'd be okay with Lysa being murdered?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Agreed, but I think the show was kinda implying that Royce accepted LF's plot to go against the Lannisters

Unless they're also playing along, like we think they're doing in books.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Unless they're also playing along, like we think they're doing in books.

I don't think they're playing along, to be honest. I think most of them legitimatelly fell for LF's manipulations

Royce could be playing along in the show, though

[TheReal_Rebel]

I have no objection to the concept of Sansa making some moral compromises in order to survive and thrive; she cannot stay innocent forever. But how far will those compromises go? If Sansa goes along with Littlefinger's poisoning Robin and does nothing to try to save the boy, that's too far. If Sansa is forced or coerced into having oral sex with Littlefinger, and goes along with it and says nothing, that's too far. If she decides to have oral sex with Littlefinger to strengthen her hold on him or have him do something specific for her (not because she's interested in having oral sex), I would think less of Sansa.

I don't think Arya's becoming a Faceless Assassin makes her badass, I think the transformation is shocking and sad; a child as strong and brave and honorable as Arya becoming a hired murderer because she is orphaned and abandoned and can't think of another way to survive after all she has seen and done. If Sansa becomes a sophisticated vamp who survives by having sex with power brokers to get ahead, I will be saddened. If she becomes a sophisticated vamp who uses her wits and charms to get ahead, without having to trade her body to men she does not love or like, I will cheer; and hope she will one day get a position of power or at least security.

For now, TV-Sansa has achieved a certain respite; in that she has some say in her own fate, for the first time in years; and I think she is reveling in freedom from fear and finding that sensation rather heady, almost aphrodisiac. Let's see whether the little bird can fly or if she will be caught be caught by a more predatory flyer.

The essential thing for Sansa is survival and where possible the re-establishment of the Stark name and power. She has the opportunity to do that now. She actually holds all the Cards. She is betrothed to Robyn--the Vale Lords would want that. She can always recant what she said about Lysa committing suicide if LF becomes too much of a bother.

I'm sorry if you think less of her if she initiated oral sex with LF, but she knows how much he desires her. Sansa on the show still lives in a Medieval world where women have very little choice in regards to sex. It is agency for Sansa to set the terms of a relationship where she has say and power over such a decision. More than Dany did.

Meanwhile, she is safe, touring the Vale with Robyn and will learn and grow.

I can see Sansa wanting revenge on the Freys and strategizing how to get back RiverRun back..

[TeamLemonCakeBraavos]

I have no objection to the concept of Sansa making some moral compromises in order to survive and thrive; she cannot stay innocent forever. But how far will those compromises go? If Sansa goes along with Littlefinger's poisoning Robin and does nothing to try to save the boy, that's too far.

For now, TV-Sansa has achieved a certain respite; in that she has some say in her own fate, for the first time in years; and I think she is reveling in freedom from fear and finding that sensation rather heady, almost aphrodisiac. Let's see whether the little bird can fly or if she will be caught be caught by a more predatory flyer.

Funny you mention that, because I've consistently maintained the position that if Sansa knowingly and willingly participates in the poisoning and death of Robin Arryn, I would cease to like her. She would, in that moment, stop being my favorite character. It would just be too damn much for my blood. That sort of thing would completely cross the moral 'event horizon' for me. I mean, its one thing to kill your enemies, but it's something completely different to kill an 'innocent' child (who looks at you as a mother) simply because, what, you want his kingdom? Smh. I don't care how much I die of love for Sansa/Sophie Turner...that's just too much for me. That plot point would truly indicate to me that the woman has lost her soul and is now an antagonist (rather than a protagonist who does "questionable" things to either survive and/or advance). So, yeah, on that point, I completely agree with you. I'm ALL IN with manipulation and seduction and only God knows what else...but killing the kid....I couldn't. I just couldn't. :(

In other news though, I'm super excited to see where Sansa's storyline goes because I want to know what her motivations are. What does SHE want? Does she want Winterfell? Does she want to rule the 7Ks? Does she just want vengeance? Like...what is HER driving force? I hated that the books ended with what LF supposedly wanted, but there wasn't really any indication of what Sansa wanted. Every character is driven by something. Tyrion wants Casterly Rock and vengeance. Arya wants to kill everyone. LF wants power. Varys wants to sit Aegon on the IT, etc, etc. Everyone wants something. And now--with the show having advanced Sansa's plotline as far as it has--I'm extremely interested in finding out what Sansa wants. Here's hoping we get insight into that and sooner, rather than later.

[Envie]

For now, TV-Sansa has achieved a certain respite; in that she has some say in her own fate, for the first time in years; and I think she is reveling in freedom from fear and finding that sensation rather heady, almost aphrodisiac. Let's see whether the little bird can fly or if she will be caught be caught by a more predatory flyer.

Well said bit there. I too think Sansa is reveling in a little power for a change. Instead of always being the victim, she's learning to play the game with the weapons she's been taught to use by Cersei and everyone else around her. It has to be somewhat empowering to make that decision and go with it.

Does it really matter if she's faking it or really going along with Littlefinger? Either way the old Sansa is gone.

Also, with the bird analogy - she knows now how a mockingbird plays - it fakes it's way by pretending to be other birds. Littlefinger's deception is perfect for her to mimic herself.

[ahighbornlady]

The first time she questioned him on the murder, he told her that he could not trust Joffrey and basically implied that he needed new allies that were predictable. She says "Who could trust you?". She is basically suspicious of him, he's not brave and bold, he's just a shady guy. Not to mention he framed her for murder. The next episode (I feel she forces his hand here...) he confesses he killed Joffrey because he loved her mother. That was a revenge kill per his explanation, not protecting Sansa. His daddy kiss prompts Lysa to go crazy. Instead of calming her down or sending Sansa away, he manipulates and kills Lysa.

I think she realizes his attraction for her and his need for more power and decides that instead of manipulating pity (like she did to Lysa, Vale Lords), she will try to control him through sex.

I think she does not want him to make any advance. In which case her vamping is a bad play. He is already doing everything she wants - protecting her, building allegiances, without her needing to gamble particularly as she would need proof of virginity to annul her marriage to Tyrion. She is just making herself more vulnerable.

Other people said that she is deliberately stoking his lust. I don't think she wants him or wants to lose her virginity to him. The only other thing would be to kill him off when its convenient. But again, in my view she doesn't not want him to make an advance.

Sansa literally says that she wishes she was like him. I'm not saying she's right to admire him, but it's pretty obvious she does by AFFC.

[juanml82]

I have no objection to the concept of Sansa making some moral compromises in order to survive and thrive; she cannot stay innocent forever. But how far will those compromises go? If Sansa goes along with Littlefinger's poisoning Robin and does nothing to try to save the boy, that's too far. If Sansa is forced or coerced into having oral sex with Littlefinger, and goes along with it and says nothing, that's too far. If she decides to have oral sex with Littlefinger to strengthen her hold on him or have him do something specific for her (not because she's interested in having oral sex), I would think less of Sansa.

I don't think Arya's becoming a Faceless Assassin makes her badass, I think the transformation is shocking and sad; a child as strong and brave and honorable as Arya becoming a hired murderer because she is orphaned and abandoned and can't think of another way to survive after all she has seen and done. If Sansa becomes a sophisticated vamp who survives by having sex with power brokers to get ahead, I will be saddened. If she becomes a sophisticated vamp who uses her wits and charms to get ahead, without having to trade her body to men she does not love or like, I will cheer; and hope she will one day get a position of power or at least security.

For now, TV-Sansa has achieved a certain respite; in that she has some say in her own fate, for the first time in years; and I think she is reveling in freedom from fear and finding that sensation rather heady, almost aphrodisiac. Let's see whether the little bird can fly or if she will be caught be caught by a more predatory flyer.

Well, I think her compromises should go as far as to make a Via Apia of Freys and make sure Walder Frey is the last one to die, after watching how every single one of his surviving relatives are executed.

How does it compare to a blowjob?

There is still Varys who knows about it. At least in the show LF and Varys will meet again I believe.

Ah, true. I forgot about Varys.