(BOOK SPOILERS) Discussing Sansa XI: Lies and Arbor Gold

[Envie]

Sansa literally says that she wishes she was like him. I'm not saying she's right to admire him, but it's pretty obvious she does by AFFC.

George says it best about her motivations for going the direction she's going: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0iNPkx8vnE&feature=em-uploademail

[TheReal_Rebel]

In any case LF in the books is even more predatory. We should remember that in the books nor the show there is no 911 or Lord Declarants on speed dial for Sansa.

Her family, as far as she knows are all dead with the exception of Jon Snow, who can do nothing to help her. Her home is destroyed and she was reliant on the kindness of strangers. In the book and on the show she is aware that she is mostly sought after as the assumed heir to Winterfell. Not valued for herself. Her only living relative is Robyn Arryn to whom she is betrothed. Revealing herself to the Lords Declarant, in the show, was a smart move, it will willing bind them to her. In the books, it could be more tricky, but with Cersei on trial, it seems like she might reveal herself and we know LF plans for her to when she marries Harry. Which leaves Robyn in serious danger from LF and possibly Sansa. Less so in the show, at least at the moment.

If Sansa participates in murdering Robyn Arryn she will lose an essential part of herself by literally killing the last link to her father and mother. She might survive, even prosper but she will be even hollower than Cersei, who at least was trying to protect her children while fulfilling her ambitions. Sansa would be lost to herself and her heritage. She would become un-Sansa, soulless.

That is the big question for Sansa, has she absorbed the lessons and internalized LF's, Cersei's, and the Court's political game playing to the exclusion of who she is. Is she still the brave person who risked Joffrey's wrath to rescue some drunk knight from death. Or a shallow game player bent on advancing herself, and taking revenge on those who wronged her and her family. Ready to sacrifice her cousin, an innocent child, to do it.

I'm betting there is still a core of Stark/Tully decency that remains in Sansa.

[Ladywhiskers]

Loved Sansa's dark hair and her demeanor at the end. She was barely recognizable as Sansa, with her dark hair and arch demeanor.

Being betrothed to the appalling Robyn Arryn is a good enough reason not to interfere with the poisoning LF is commencing. I'm afraid Sansa is vanishing before our very eyes, as she submerges into Alayne Stone, who is something of a dark lady. Interesting that her name is Stone, and Cat's is Stoneheart. All of the Starks seem to be undergoing similar transformations, losing their humanity and their "Starkness."

Littlefinger won't want to kill Robyn Arryn until Sansa is pregnant by Harry, at which point he will probably engineer the deaths of both, and marry Sansa himself, thereby becoming Lord Protector of the Vale. In order to enjoy an uninterrupted reign, he'll probably kill Harry first. But of course he won't allow Robyn to come of age.

[Raksha 2014]

Loved Sansa's dark hair and her demeanor at the end. She was barely recognizable as Sansa, with her dark hair and arch demeanor.

Being betrothed to the appalling Robyn Arryn is a good enough reason not to interfere with the poisoning LF is commencing. I'm afraid Sansa is vanishing before our very eyes, as she submerges into Alayne Stone, who is something of a dark lady. Interesting that her name is Stone, and Cat's is Stoneheart. All of the Starks seem to be undergoing similar transformations, losing their humanity and their "Starkness."

Littlefinger won't want to kill Robyn Arryn until Sansa is pregnant by Harry, at which point he will probably engineer the deaths of both, and marry Sansa himself, thereby becoming Lord Protector of the Vale. In order to enjoy an uninterrupted reign, he'll probably kill Harry first. But of course he won't allow Robyn to come of age.

No, being betrothed to Robin Arryn is not a good enough reason to stand by and let LF poison the boy. Don't forget, in the book, he is a young child, Sansa's own kin. That's not right. Even the TV-Robin, as bratty and spoiled as he is, has not hurt anyone; and hasn't tortured any animals. He could still be properly guided and taught. And in himself, he does not pose a definite threat to Sansa's physical safety.

I do think you're right about LF's plans; though I think he'd wait to kill Robin until Sansa has delivered one or two healthy children by Harry.

[Lee-Sensei]

Loved Sansa's dark hair and her demeanor at the end. She was barely recognizable as Sansa, with her dark hair and arch demeanor.

Being betrothed to the appalling Robyn Arryn is a good enough reason not to interfere with the poisoning LF is commencing. I'm afraid Sansa is vanishing before our very eyes, as she submerges into Alayne Stone, who is something of a dark lady. Interesting that her name is Stone, and Cat's is Stoneheart. All of the Starks seem to be undergoing similar transformations, losing their humanity and their "Starkness."

Littlefinger won't want to kill Robyn Arryn until Sansa is pregnant by Harry, at which point he will probably engineer the deaths of both, and marry Sansa himself, thereby becoming Lord Protector of the Vale. In order to enjoy an uninterrupted reign, he'll probably kill Harry first. But of course he won't allow Robyn to come of age.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if Sansa is party to SR's murder to steal his Kingdom and the Vale Lords find out about it, Ned's daughter or no, Bronze Yohn Royce will probably personally introduce her to the Moon Door and send her the way of dear old Aunt Lysa. Luckily, Sansa's one of the most compassionate and caring characters in the series so I doubt she will.

Sansa's arc is taking a strange turn. Where are they going with this? I don't know. I can't wait to find out.

[TheReal_Rebel]

No, being betrothed to Robin Arryn is not a good enough reason to stand by and let LF poison the boy. Don't forget, in the book, he is a young child, Sansa's own kin. That's not right. Even the TV-Robin, as bratty and spoiled as he is, has not hurt anyone; and hasn't tortured any animals. He could still be properly guided and taught. And in himself, he does not pose a definite threat to Sansa's physical safety.

I do think you're right about LF's plans; though I think he'd wait to kill Robin until Sansa has delivered one or two healthy children by Harry.

In AFFC LF tells Sansa he plans un veiling her as Sansa Stark at the wedding with Harry.

It's unlikely Harry is going to happen on the show and in the books he's hardly someone who will put up with LF. In the book, he'll be as dead as Joffrey or he'll kill LF or Sansa may orchestrate them killing each other and rescuing SR from them both.

[Raksha 2014]

It's unlikely Harry is going to happen on the show and in the books he's hardly someone who will put up with LF. In the book, he'll be as dead as Joffrey or he'll kill LF or Sansa may orchestrate them killing each other and rescuing SR from them both.

I hope Sansa won't be morally so far gone that she'd kill Harry just for being inconvenient. If he's plotting to kill Robin, that's another story and Sansa can engineer his death with my blessing (not that she or GRRM need it!).

[TheReal_Rebel]

I hope Sansa won't be morally so far gone that she'd kill Harry just for being inconvenient. If he's plotting to kill Robin, that's another story and Sansa can engineer his death with my blessing (not that she or GRRM need it!).

I think justifying Sansa killing SR would be a bridge too far for GRRM, unless he means her to become Cersei 2.0

But I don't think so. Though I could be wrong. :-)

[jons nissa]

I have the feeling that Baelish is going to end up poisoned or otherwise disposed of by Sansa.

there has been a ton of references to poison being a woman's weapon on the show and of course, in the books, sansa still has the poisoned necklace. it's really not much of a stretch to assume that sansa will eventually kill littlefinger by poison even though i think it would be more painful for him to be exposed and made powerless then left to struggle. grrm seems to have other plans for him if we go by all the mention of poison and sansa's obvious move to the dark side.

I hate that she's his niece instead of daughter. Being a bastard humbled Sansa a bit,

not only did being a bastard humble her, it was an interesting way to illustrate and explain the changes in her behavior: i will be bastard brave. i will be older and bolder. the show isn't give much reason for it. i will be more responsible and realistic and have no time for things like dancing.

Interesting that her name is Stone, and Cat's is Stoneheart.

this is interesting. didn't catch it in the books.

[Lee-Sensei]

In AFFC LF tells Sansa he plans un veiling her as Sansa Stark at the wedding with Harry.

It's unlikely Harry is going to happen on the show and in the books he's hardly someone who will put up with LF. In the book, he'll be as dead as Joffrey or he'll kill LF or Sansa may orchestrate them killing each other and rescuing SR from them both.

I hope she doesn't kill Harry either. One does not simply walk into the Vale of Arryn and kill Arryns.

[The Reader Lisa]

Sweet Jesus, if this is the route Sansa's story is going to take, I don't care if GRRM ever finishes the books!

To the Sansa as a Player theorists, kudos. It is not a theory I have ever personally espoused. From my read-

ing of the books, I have gotten a still sweet girl who wants desperately to be loved and wanted for herself and

not as the heir to Winterfell. She sticks with Petyr because she has simply no other choice and if she goes

along with him, it is because she is a conciliator by nature, not a contrarian like Arya. The idea that she will

seduce LF and poison Sweet Robin, all to amass power so she can weld the Vale like a weapon against her

enemies has always and still does strike me as ludicrous. LF has implicated and entangled her in three mur-

ders (Joffrey's, Dontos' and Lysa's) and has positioned her to take the fall for Sweet Robin's. Her consenting

to killing her tiresome cousin and then turning the tables and murdering LF does not seem to me to be some-

thing to celebrate, but a great sadness, a corruption. Revenge is, like magic, a sword without a hilt. I don't see

her triumphing once she takes someone's life. It will simply make it more plausible that she was actively involved

in those other murders.

I don't want Sansa to turn into Arya. I think Arya's story arc is pathetic, the little tomboy turned into the little assassin. She's one dimensional, stuck on one note - kill, kill, kill...revenge, revenge, revenge. GRRM is all

about gray but everything is black or white for Arya, like the decor at Faceless Man's Hogwarts. I was appalled

by the "Mercy" chapter. So she kills Ralf the Sweetling. So what? Lommy's still dead. She's still an orphan

stuck on the wrong side of the Narrow Sea being exploited by an organization that murders people for money

.....lots of money. She's not badass, she's sad.

As for Sansa's new look....there was a word thrown around a lot about Gregor 3.0's first scene this season

- cartoonish. That describes it exactly.

[Chebyshov]

She isn't foreshadowed as killing a bird, but a giant. I don't think she will take any proactive part in SR's death (or may even move to prevent it), but she is definitely going to slay her giant.

[The 4th Dragon]

When Sansa came down the stairs, was I the only one thinking that she looked a lot like Edea from Final Fantasy VIII in that black dress of hers? :P

http://motokochan.unblog.fr/files/2009/05/ffviiiedeafull.jpg

[Raksha 2014]

Sweet Jesus, if this is the route Sansa's story is going to take, I don't care if GRRM ever finishes the books!

To the Sansa as a Player theorists, kudos. It is not a theory I have ever personally espoused. From my read-

ing of the books, I have gotten a still sweet girl who wants desperately to be loved and wanted for herself and

not as the heir to Winterfell. She sticks with Petyr because she has simply no other choice and if she goes

along with him, it is because she is a conciliator by nature, not a contrarian like Arya. The idea that she will

seduce LF and poison Sweet Robin, all to amass power so she can weld the Vale like a weapon against her

enemies has always and still does strike me as ludicrous. LF has implicated and entangled her in three mur-

ders (Joffrey's, Dontos' and Lysa's) and has positioned her to take the fall for Sweet Robin's. Her consenting

to killing her tiresome cousin and then turning the tables and murdering LF does not seem to me to be some-

thing to celebrate, but a great sadness, a corruption. Revenge is, like magic, a sword without a hilt. I don't see

her triumphing once she takes someone's life. It will simply make it more plausible that she was actively involved

in those other murders.

I don't want Sansa to turn into Arya. I think Arya's story arc is pathetic, the little tomboy turned into the little assassin. She's one dimensional, stuck on one note - kill, kill, kill...revenge, revenge, revenge. GRRM is all

about gray but everything is black or white for Arya, like the decor at Faceless Man's Hogwarts. I was appalled

by the "Mercy" chapter. So she kills Ralf the Sweetling. So what? Lommy's still dead. She's still an orphan

stuck on the wrong side of the Narrow Sea being exploited by an organization that murders people for money

.....lots of money. She's not badass, she's sad.

As for Sansa's new look....there was a word thrown around a lot about Gregor 3.0's first scene this season

- cartoonish. That describes it exactly.

I've always thought Arya's evolution from plucky tomboy to trainee assassin to be tragic rather than exciting. Jeez, that poor little girl has been exposed to so much violence, not to mention having to kill to survive (and at far too young an age to develop any mature way to handle it), that she's killing without compunction. And she's being taught to be a thug for hire. Wow. The only way she's different from the Unsullied is that she hasn't been mutilated (at least not permanently) or been forced to kill babies or puppies (yet). And there's still a bit of Arya that holds onto House Stark and the family she's lost.

I wouldn't mind if Sansa eventually killed Littlefinger (after learning how he manipulated and betrayed her father), but I would hate to see her become Littlefinger Lite, using and discarding 'loose ends'. And she's got to try to save Robin in the books, or she'd be turning her back on everything she was born to be, all of her parents' teachings (not all of which were useless or frivolous).

[zaphodbrx]

I think people are hating on Littlefinger a little too much..

Stop confusing show!Littlefinger with book!Littlefinger, they're not even close to the same character. Show!Littlefinger is mainly a whore management expert, who tries dabbling in politics now and then but usually results in bumbling idiocies like 'Power is power' scene, trying to come on to Cat, monologuing to Varys about his exact plans, and so on. He himself said in season 3 that 'whores are the real challenge'. Why is it so surprising that he comes across as an idiot with no plan whatsoever about the Lords of the Vale. It's just a logical conclusion to his character development.

I actually don't mind the deviations any more.. Seeing the evil whore monger become a boy-toy for Darth Sansa is rather amusing in my book.

[JonBranRickon]

I've always thought Arya's evolution from plucky tomboy to trainee assassin to be tragic rather than exciting. Jeez, that poor little girl has been exposed to so much violence, not to mention having to kill to survive (and at far too young an age to develop any mature way to handle it), that she's killing without compunction. And she's being taught to be a thug for hire. Wow. The only way she's different from the Unsullied is that she hasn't been mutilated (at least not permanently) or been forced to kill babies or puppies (yet). And there's still a bit of Arya that holds onto House Stark and the family she's lost.

I wouldn't mind if Sansa eventually killed Littlefinger (after learning how he manipulated and betrayed her father), but I would hate to see her become Littlefinger Lite, using and discarding 'loose ends'. And she's got to try to save Robin in the books, or she'd be turning her back on everything she was born to be, all of her parents' teachings (not all of which were useless or frivolous).

It is funny how people forget that she was always a little manipulative. She tried to manipulate Joffrey to fight in the vanguard is one example. Sanasa, is a lot smarter than people think. She consistently uses her power when she thinks has leverage over someone and when she has none, she makes herself small, irrelevant and throws herself at their mercy. It's a very compelling strategy.

[The Reader Lisa]

A little more re: Sansa as a Player and I'm done, I promise:

All these scenarios about Sansa (ruling the Vale, the North, marrying Faegon) hinge on her being the heir

to Winterfell. But Sansa isn't the heir to Winterfell. At some point, Lady Mormont and Co. are going to

emerge from the Neck with Robb's will which disinherits Sansa in favor of Jon Snow whom he has legitamized.

The remembering North is going to take martyred St. Robb's last request very seriously. And, no, most of

us don't think Jon is dead like in dead-dead. And Howland Reed might be part of this entourage and we

might finally have Jon's parentage confirmed. (A Stark and a Targaryen! Yowser!) A legitimate Targaryen

too, thanks to Robb.

Meanwhile, we have Davos off to Worst-Vacation-Spot-Ever Skagos to rescue Rickon. So, we might have

the Manderleys producing Rickon as the heir to Winterfell, trailing ShaggyDog to give him proper Stark

cred, at some point.

Bran is also alive. Okay, he's becoming a tree but it's early days yet and it might not be permanent. And

meanwhile, he's added some interesting tools to his skill set. Maybe he could run the North by tree-mail.

Arya's still alive and Braavos has already messed with Cersei by endorsing Stannis. I'd assumed they

would use Arya's Faceless Girl's skills to kill Cersei but producing a Stark heir would also create some

mischief for her.

And last but not least, we still have Jeyne Westerling who just might turn out to be pregnant after all.

Perhaps moon tea, like guest right and death, isn't what it used to be.

So, what's a Sansa to do? Step graciously aside for her siblings after having whored and murdered

her way into power? Or will Westeros have the Dance of the Wolves like it once had the Dance of

the Dragons? A song cycle Sansa was most engrossed in the night of the Hand's tourney. Fore-

shadowing?

As for Faegon, I wouldn't rely on him much as a Sansa empowerment tool. I figure he's going to die

sooner than later of cockiness, greyscale or, if he ever runs into Dany, be made into S'mores by

Drogon. (I just can't envision Dany being too thrilled with sharing power with that little twerp)

And don't forget Mommy Dearest. I can't see UnCat being pleased that Sansa consorted with LF even

if she does ultimately kill him. UnCat isn't exactly reasonable or forgiving and maybe before Lord

Beric rezzed her, she found out somehow that Sansa went tattling to Cersei about Ned's plans. Bad

girl! Or maybe that ridiculous dominatrix outfit would be enough to get her hanged by her mother.

[jentario]

She said "I know what you want...." and he said "when you know what someone wants, you can control them." Take it from there.

Exactly. It ties with what Littlefinger said, that hiding his true motivations makes him unpredictable and gives him power. She knows his motivations, and he is almost powerless to her.

Also, can anyone link the angry Sansa shot? I don't think we'll see her again this season, but if there's proof...

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

No, being betrothed to Robin Arryn is not a good enough reason to stand by and let LF poison the boy. Don't forget, in the book, he is a young child, Sansa's own kin. That's not right. Even the TV-Robin, as bratty and spoiled as he is, has not hurt anyone; and hasn't tortured any animals. He could still be properly guided and taught. And in himself, he does not pose a definite threat to Sansa's physical safety.

I do think you're right about LF's plans; though I think he'd wait to kill Robin until Sansa has delivered one or two healthy children by Harry.

Maybe that is the point, we see her in season one not backing up her sister for her own interests. We all expect her to right herself after that but what if she just goes to the next level and offs her cousin because he is in the way.

[1234567]

Also the Jaime / Tyrion conversation about cousin killing might be foreshadowing (as well as a reference to Jaime). I hope she doesn't help to kill SR but I suspect she will be lured towards it by LF. In the books it seems as if it will be unwittingly, but all the Starks are facing dark choices in their development, it is just how far along that path they go.

It will be interesting to see if they kill Sandor off or not. If he does survive, then the Grand Tour of the Vale hints at them meeting again. As she became his moral compass in ACOK maybe he will become hers in TWOW. Also an interesting version of rescuing each other.