The Mountain and the Viper Episode Guide

[Rashtibram]

I think that the reason many felt it dragged on for too long was simply due to the anticipation for the duel. Upon rewatch, I noticed just how great that scene is!

You're probably right. I imagine people were just thinking "SHUT UP ABOUT BUGS! THERE'S ONLY 7 MINUTES LEFT IN THE EPISODE!" and that was their ultimate impression of the scene. But a baffling amount of people on the "rating" thread are saying "I don't get it, what do beetles have to do with anything?"

[Frey Pies]

You're probably right. I imagine people were just thinking "SHUT UP ABOUT BUGS! THERE'S ONLY 7 MINUTES LEFT IN THE EPISODE!" and that was their ultimate impression of the scene. But a baffling amount of people on the "rating" thread are saying "I don't get it, what do beetles have to do with anything?"

Exactly. I don't get how everyone on this forum is so enthusiastic about analyizing the books, but, when it comes to the show, many are so close minded.

[sj4iy]

You're probably right. I imagine people were just thinking "SHUT UP ABOUT BUGS! THERE'S ONLY 7 MINUTES LEFT IN THE EPISODE!" and that was their ultimate impression of the scene. But a baffling amount of people on the "rating" thread are saying "I don't get it, what do beetles have to do with anything?"

I'm baffled how people are perfectly fine with reading hundreds of pages between two POVs in a book, waiting for hours until they get to the 'climatic event' in that POV, yet get upset when a few minutes is spent on an illuminating and well-told story like the beetles right before the duel.

[Beric175]

I am quite amazed that the reviewers for the site did not consider that seeingthe fighters above and from afar was maybe intentional to put us viewers in a position similar to the gods, looking down on Oberyn and Gregor and yet powerless to intervene, which speaks to the impotence and powerlessness of the gods maybe? In any case it tied in nicely on a visual level with Tyrion's speech, speaking of which...I cannot believe that people who nitpick and analyze every single word that every character utters in the books are fine with carefully analyzing every single word, and yet when it comes to this speech that allows for so many different interpretations, we get a superficial treatment of that character-informing moment, which maybe speaks to a general lack of engagement with the show (I know Linda seems to be getting wearier of it every year) and to go as far as to say this was "worse" than the HoU (which as Bryan Cogman explained was changed for story reasons since prohecies are tricky on tv because once you have those the viewers won't care about anything else) and this is nowhere near that and it is hyperbolic to suggest otherwise given the very fine performances and the good choreography and given the reaction that it provoked. Instead they'd have liked to replace a scene that lets the characters breathe beyond being exposition vessels with a scene that would reduce them once more to deliverers of exposition, just to get some part of the plot introduced. The speech can be about the randomness and futility of, and most importantly lack of logic behind, violence, about the gods' relation to humanity, about George R.R. Martin killing off characters in the books and it obviously references Kafka and other witers but th review did not engage with it and it's a real shame.

Letdown? This was one of the best episodes of the show because no scene was actually bad, it came down to mainly changes from the books and editing choices for the fight that were not distracting at all to me and apparently to many others who watched the fight and put their reactions on youtube. The fact is, this scene in the books to me was about hubris and that's exactly why Oberyn lost in this episode as well and that's all that needed to be conveyed. he let his ego get in the way when he looked at Ellaria, which was also a moment of distraction that the Mountain used to his advantage.

[Rashtibram]

Personally, I felt that the duel scene, while brilliantly choreographed, could really have gone on longer and been more dramatic; ultimately, it should have borrowed more from Achilles vs Hector in the movie Troy (not in terms of fight choreography, but in terms of pacing, music, intensity etc). As it was, it was recued by the brilliant ending (from Oberyn's "YOU KILLED HER CHILDREN" to the credits) but I found the actual fight sequence to be ultimately underwhelming.

However, there's an important distinction to be made between "we hyped this up too much" and "this was objectively bad." Because it wasn't. It was a fantastic scene all things considered, and was the perfect closing – thematically as well as dramatically – to a near-perfect episode.

[Ran]

Beric,

Almost all the crane shots were there to hide the stunt man. So, no, not some godlike perspective. The crane shots were the most distancing and least effective of the shots they had, but because of the need for a wushu expert to carry out stunts, that's the solution they had.

The speech is no different than Tyrion's earlier musings about the names for various kinds of killing: he's thinking of inconsequentialities as death stares him in the face, because he's powerless. The 4 minute Orson speech is about powerlessness. It's not about "senseless killing" -- Jaime brings up, hey, scores of people are killed every day, who cares about beetles, and Tyrion presses on; he's telling an entirely different point. He's not having deep thoughts about death, he's having a morbid curiousity about something he was powerless to resolve because, hey... he's powerless. Which is why he chatters about frivolities when he can't take thinking about the fact that his life is hanging in the balance.

And we know why GRRM kills characters. It's the most asinine argument I've seen, that Orson=GRRM and we're Tyrion. We know why they're getting killed off.

Finally, the scene in the books isn't "about hubris". Baffling. It ends the way it does not so much because of hubris as because Oberyn's obsession with extracting a confession from Gregor -- it's about revenge, and the price that you pay when it's what moves you. That's not hubris.

The show? I don't know, I don't think his look to Ellaria is hubris either. It's his moment of finally getting the vengeance he wants, it's triumph and getting his revenge after so long waiting.

I think we can all agree that the cost of revenge, the things it does to you, the way it perpetuates cycles of violence, are quite central themes of the books and the show.

Haldir,

If the fight sequence is underwhelming, I think you don't really have to try to claim the choreography was brilliant. The pacing of it is an editing and direction thing, and that was determined by the decision to choreograph a lot of stuff that required stunt doubles and which severely hampered one of the performers.

[protar]

I'm baffled how people are perfectly fine with reading hundreds of pages between two POVs in a book, waiting for hours until they get to the 'climatic event' in that POV, yet get upset when a few minutes is spent on an illuminating and well-told story like the beetles right before the duel.

It's all relative. The books have more time than the show does, which means long pseudo-philosophical speeches get more of a pass. Unless Martin is physically pushing the capabilities of book-binding technology with a 2000 page book a couple of pages where some character muses about beetles isn't going to prevent him writing a couple extra pages on a fight scene. Not so in the show where every minute counts. It's not about how much time we're waiting, it's about how much we're wasting.

I thought the fight scene was great personally, and I would have liked a shorter version of the beetle speech. But those four or five minutes could have been divvied up a bit more. I think the one glaring omission from this episode was one final Tyrion/Oberyn scene.

[Rashtibram]

Ran, you're categorically stating things that are open to interpretation, just to support a negative perspective. I think that's all I can say at this point.

I think my problem with the fighting was 1) the lack of an appropriate soundtrack and 2) the fact that it simply didn't go on long enough. The combination of these was what made it seem underwhelming, and doesn't have anything to do with the choreography. I didn't really have a problem with the long shots.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I actually agreed with the entire review except for the fight. I'm not a huge fight-scene guy because ultimately I don't think the fight itself is as important as the before and after, but it worked ok for me. It was a bit too twitchy, agreed, but I think the main theme of the fight actually worked better than when I read - which is that Oberyn's anger and frustration really escalated, his patience wore thin, and he really slowly started to lose it a bit until he stopped thinking and got...smashed. For me, that buildup is more important than watching a couple of guys swing weapons, and ultimately the important part anyways. My main problem with this scene was actually the Mountain, who in my mind will always look like S1's Mountain.

[Ran]

But pacing is entirely a matter of choreography, editing, and direction. If you're saying you liked the pacing and you just want it to last longer, you should say that.

[Bael's Bastard]

I'm baffled how people are perfectly fine with reading hundreds of pages between two POVs in a book, waiting for hours until they get to the 'climatic event' in that POV, yet get upset when a few minutes is spent on an illuminating and well-told story like the beetles right before the duel.

There's 10 episodes a season at 50+ minutes each. Let's say 55 minutes average (probably off, but for the sake of argument). So we get about 550 minutes total per season.

IIRC, only AFFC has been under 1,000 pages of story so far. Without even getting to the last two books, there must already be over 5,000 pages between AGOT, ACOK, ASOS, AFFC, and ADWD.

Unless season seven is extended like Sopranos or Breaking Bad, we are going to get less than 4,000 minutes of total show compared to perhaps 7,000 or more total pages of story.

For some the beetle story was just terrible, and not from any fault of the actors involved. It kept going and went nowhere. It was not a necessary or good lead in to the trial by combat, and it would be a terrible final or near final scene for Tyrion, especially after all of his powerful scenes in recent weeks.

I try to take the show for what it is, and don't spend every moment comparing it to what happens in the books. If they feel they have to remove or rework things to make it work for the show, all I care if that it is good. Whether from the books or an original creation, all I ask is that it is done well.

But I have a problem when there is so much good book material to use, including a lot that wouldn't make it in even if they were using almost entirely book stuff and very little original stuff, and we get bad original scenes like this.

The fight itself I really liked. Not that there aren't valid criticisms, but I enjoyed it in the moment, and I thought the Pedro just did an amazing Oberyn. The calling out of Tywin in front of everyone was so satisfying.

[Faint]

Is there a reason we did not get a book-to-screen section in the episode guide? I always enjoy reading that part of the recap.

[Mr Fixit]

I think the main theme of the fight actually worked better than when I read - which is that Oberyn's anger and frustration really escalated, his patience wore thin, and he really slowly started to lose it a bit until he stopped thinking and got...smashed. For me, that buildup is more important than watching a couple of guys swing weapons

Well said. Pedro's performance was beyond brilliant. Simply stunning. I also fully believe that D&D's writing was much better than Martin's.

Are you dying? No, no, no, you can't die, is infinitely better than I'll haunt you through all Seven Hells.

But the best bit? WHO GAVE YOU THE ORDER? SAY IT! while circling like a wild cat around the downed Mountain and pointing at Tywin.

Way, way, WAY better than in the books. It can't even compare.

[Ran]

Working on it now. Was up way too late trying to get the recap done, was exhausted yesterday. :)

Mr. Fixit,

Hunt you, not haunt you. I can see why you'd think it was less good given your misrecollection. Much more ferocious, telling someone you'll climb into the pits of hell itself if you need to.

The order thing I found stupid, since on the show he already knows Tywin ordered the deaths of the children (in his talk with Tywin, he does not once bring up the children), so the only question is the rape and murder of Elia... and we both know that Tywin did not order it and that he told Oberyn this.

Further, the only reason he could imagine that Tywin ordered Elia's death (since it was genuinely senseless) would be that it was out of spite for Elia's mother arranging the marriage to Rhaegar as a king of revenge for his rejecting the marriages of her children to his. Buuuut ... the show never actually gets that detail out there, and may well have dropped it entirely, so there's really no motive at all to Oberyn thinking that Tywin specifically ordered Elia's rape and/or murder.

So yeah, internally the logic of it, I don't get. He knows Tywin had the kids killed. He doesn't need a confession for that -- the confession from Gregor is because he was the actual perpetrator and he wants it out there. And he has no real reason left to think Tywin had Elia murdered.

Strange that I'm convinced the lines in the book are better, and you think the lines in the show are better, isn't it? The only real difference I guess is that I remember the actual lines. :)

[Faint]

Working on it now. Was up way too late trying to get the recap done, was exhausted yesterday. :)

Thanks for the good work. I just like having it to see if my memory is correct about what they changed without having to dive into the books.

[Rashtibram]

But pacing is entirely a matter of choreography, editing, and direction. If you're saying you liked the pacing and you just want it to last longer, you should say that.

Well, yes, I suppose I misspoke then. I thought the pacing was off in that it ended too quickly to have sufficient dramatic impact; they basically had two or three bouts of fighting and then Gregor was on the floor. I didn't have a problem with the pacing in the sense you mean it.

[Mr Fixit]

Mr. Fixit,

Hunt you, not haunt you. I can see why you'd think it was less good given your misrecollection. Much more ferocious, telling someone you'll climb into the pits of hell itself if you need to.

Hunt, haunt, doesn't really matter. I still think his show lines are much better.

The order thing I found stupid, since on the show he already knows Tywin ordered the deaths of the children (in his talk with Tywin, he does not once bring up the children), so the only question is the rape and murder of Elia... and we both know that Tywin did not order it and that he told Oberyn this.

He doesn't know anything of the sort. That's what Tywin told him. Whether Oberyn believes it is a whole 'nother thing. You really think that a wildly passionate man driven by lust for vengeance couldn't think Tywin ordered the murder of Elia even if it isn't something that calculating and pragmatic Tywin had wanted? And even then, why would Oberyn care to make such a fine distinction? Would you? Would anyone? Tywin ordered Mountain to kill Elia's children. You raped her. You murdered her. You killed her children. Then what? Is Oberyn going to make a fine legal point in the middle of the arena on varying degrees of Tywin's culpability regarding the rape and murder of Elia as opposed to her children? Mountain killed them. Tywin ordered it. End of story. Say it! Who gave the order? That's all that matters to Oberyn and he wants to hear the confession loud and clear in front of as many damned witnesses as possible.

That's also a thing you're missing - there were dozens if not hundreds of people watching the duel. Oberyn clearly wanted all of King's Landing to hear both his accusations leveled at Tywin and, hopefully, Mountain's confession. He needed to hear the words. He needed everyone present to hear them.

So yeah, Who gave you the order!!!!!! sent chills down my spine. Far beyond anything Martin wrote in that chapter. I get that you disagree. :dunno:

[Drogon's Personal Trainer]

Beric,

Almost all the crane shots were there to hide the stunt man. So, no, not some godlike perspective. The crane shots were the most distancing and least effective of the shots they had, but because of the need for a wushu expert to carry out stunts, that's the solution they had.

The speech is no different than Tyrion's earlier musings about the names for various kinds of killing: he's thinking of inconsequentialities as death stares him in the face, because he's powerless. The 4 minute Orson speech is about powerlessness. It's not about "senseless killing" -- Jaime brings up, hey, scores of people are killed every day, who cares about beetles, and Tyrion presses on; he's telling an entirely different point. He's not having deep thoughts about death, he's having a morbid curiousity about something he was powerless to resolve because, hey... he's powerless. Which is why he chatters about frivolities when he can't take thinking about the fact that his life is hanging in the balance.

And we know why GRRM kills characters. It's the most asinine argument I've seen, that Orson=GRRM and we're Tyrion. We know why they're getting killed off.

I think this is perhaps the only comment I've read that actually echoes my own feelings about Beetlegate. After the Samuel Beckett reference in the last episode (Arya, the Hound and the old man), I immediately thought of that big wheel sequence in The Third Man here. Perhaps it was the 'Orson' (as in Welles) thing that kicked it all off in my tiny brain. I just thought that it was about the futility of life, and powerlessness, as you say. I got the image of all these beetles being like the people Lime can see from the big wheel in Vienna, and he makes the comment that no one would care if one of those dots stopped moving forever.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Working on it now. Was up way too late trying to get the recap done, was exhausted yesterday. :)

Mr. Fixit,

Hunt you, not haunt you. I can see why you'd think it was less good given your misrecollection. Much more ferocious, telling someone you'll climb into the pits of hell itself if you need to.

The order thing I found stupid, since on the show he already knows Tywin ordered the deaths of the children (in his talk with Tywin, he does not once bring up the children), so the only question is the rape and murder of Elia... and we both know that Tywin did not order it and that he told Oberyn this.

Further, the only reason he could imagine that Tywin ordered Elia's death (since it was genuinely senseless) would be that it was out of spite for Elia's mother arranging the marriage to Rhaegar as a king of revenge for his rejecting the marriages of her children to his. Buuuut ... the show never actually gets that detail out there, and may well have dropped it entirely, so there's really no motive at all to Oberyn thinking that Tywin specifically ordered Elia's rape and/or murder.

So yeah, internally the logic of it, I don't get. He knows Tywin had the kids killed. He doesn't need a confession for that -- the confession from Gregor is because he was the actual perpetrator and he wants it out there. And he has no real reason left to think Tywin had Elia murdered.

Strange that I'm convinced the lines in the book are better, and you think the lines in the show are better, isn't it? The only real difference I guess is that I remember the actual lines. :)

I'm not sure Oberyn is convinced that Tywin didn't order both Elia and the children's death. Of course it's senseless, but from Oberyn's point of view, a soldier received an order and then raped and murdered a woman and killed her kids. Obviously Tywin's order was to get the children since they're potential heirs, you don't need to be a genius to figure that out. You're trying to think of this logically. Put yourself in Oberyn's shoes...You've got almost 20 years of pent up anger for your raped, murdered sister and her butchered children. You know the man who did the killing, and you know the man who gives him orders. Do you really think Oberyn would say ok well it was pretty senseless I'm sure Lord Tywin can't be blamed for Elia, it was only the kids probably so maybe he's not such a bad guy?! Absolutely not, it's ludicrous to even go there.

He just wants The Mountain to say it for everyone else to hear, but mostly for himself. Once I saw Oberyn losing it and yelling/pointing at Tywin I really loved the scene. I'm not sure I could say I love it more than the book, but Oberyn's outward hostility toward Tywin near the end was something I thought was a good addition. None of the reasoning you provided is really sound enough to contradict that. Oberyn isn't there to put Tywin on trial. He's the Hand of the King, after all. Oberyn wants Gregor to say it so he can finally hear it after 20 years, and he can see Tywin's face when he learns it. Plus he's understandably extremely angry.

Even thinking about it logically, Oberyn didn't ask about the children because it's pretty obvious who ordered it. I think Oberyn knows that's a foregone conclusion, but he asks about Elia because she didn't need to be killed, but could've just been part of the order to have one less person to speak tales of child butchery. It's really quite silly to think he wouldn't direct his anger for Elia's rape and murder to the guy who sacked the city to begin with. By the way, if Ned Stark can order Tywin Lannister to come to the capitol to "Answer for the crimes of his bannermen" I don't think Tywin could show up and say "Sorry that was the Mountain going nuts, not my fault" and then be let off the hook for it.

[PatrickStormborn]

Hunt, haunt, doesn't really matter. I still think his show lines are much better.

It does - haunt implies that it's all about Gregor and only has power if Gregor actually feels remorse, but hunt indicates that Oberyn still won't be done with him when he dies; his thirst for vengeance will continue, regardless of whether Gregor is capable of feeling any remorse.

And, considering that the fight is all about the cost and cycle of vengeance, it's perhaps one of the most important lines in the duel.

"Who gave the order?" is hardly a great line - if GRRM had included it in the book dialogue it would certainly not stand out. Pedro's delivery is what makes it so powerful and so memorable.