The Mountain and the Viper Episode Guide

[Miodrag]

I didn't say Tyrion wouldn't be condemned without her testimony - although, her testimony was rather important, or otherwise it wouldn't be such a big deal. But, it's not only about her giving a testimony, it's also about the way she delivers it. She insults and mocks him, by telling that he made her call him "My Lannister Giant". Remember the reaction to that: everybody laughs (everybody but Tywin, of course). Was that remark necessary? Not really. Was it Shae's personal contribution to Tyrion's misery? Damn right it was. What kind of a person would not only trust the dagger into Tyrion, but also twirl it for the greater pain? Only an immoral person. Being low-born can excuse a lot of things, but not for this one. And on top of everything, when he finally confronts her in Tywin's chamber, she even stupidly reminds him of that moment. I'm pretty certain many men would loose it at that instance. In the end, great many other characters in this story deserve the sympathy more than Shae does.

[Beric175]

Did anyone else notice Jaime looking at Varys at one point during the trial by combat? Foreshadowing....

[Bael's Bastard]

Asking Gregor who gave the order is, unfortunately, pointless. He would never admit that it was Tywin, and he has no proof anyway so there's no way that Tywin - the Hand of the King - would be punished for it.

Ultimately, "Who gave the order?" is only necessary if Oberyn knows he's going to die.

I don't think it is pointless. I would be surprised if Oberyn had any illusions of ever bringing Tywin to justice legally. Win or lose, Oberyn went to the scene of the crime and publicly pointed the finger at the man who ordered and unleashed this thing, which has been buried and only whispered about for the last two decades. That is a sort of poison that will not die with Oberyn.

[King of the Road]

Did anyone else notice Jaime looking at Varys at one point during the trial by combat? Foreshadowing....

I thought he was just looking at Tywin/Cersei, at that point Oberyn looked to be winning, I think he just wanted to see how they were reacting. Maybe it was his own discreet way of gloating.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

In the show? He asked only about Elia's death, and Tywin said no. He already knows Tywin ordered the death of the children. His only question was about Elia, because that's the only one he was unsure about. And I think that the show suggests he didn't believe it, but it's rather foolish since the fact is that the reason he was suspicious in the books -- his belief that Tywin ordered it out of spite after the Princess of Dorne appears to have gone out of her way to make sure Elia married Rhaegar after he rejected a match -- doesn't exist (for that matter, I'm not sure the show has yet touched on the idea that Tywin had hoped to marry Cersei to Rhaegar to begin with).

That's not the only reason why it's suspicious. To be honest, who orders the murder of a mother's two children (Who would likely be with their mother) and says let the mother go? Does that ever happen? The sheer fact that he orders the children's death means he is completely responsible for what happened to Elia too. This is an awful argument. I ask you again to Imagine that it was your sister who was raped, murdered, and her two children killed. Would you only be angry at a man for the children's death or would you hold him responsible as well for your sister?

[Ran]

He is responsible in the sense that he was negligent in not specifying what was to be done with her, but that is because he did not imagine that that would be necessary. As he told Tyrion, he didn't know what sort of beast he had at the time.

As to anger... You know that if the situation were swapped around, Oberyn would have no compunction against killing children if it were the pragmatic solution to a dynastic problem. Certainly, he means ill for Tommen.

In any case, we see in the show that his question to Tywin is solely concerned with Elia's death. He knows why the children were killed.

[boojam]

Did anyone else notice Jaime looking at Varys at one point during the trial by combat? Foreshadowing....

Varys was there?

Whew that went by fast.

Also, saw Mace but where were the rest of the Tyrells?

[HairGrowsBack]

I didn't say Tyrion wouldn't be condemned without her testimony - although, her testimony was rather important, or otherwise it wouldn't be such a big deal. But, it's not only about her giving a testimony, it's also about the way she delivers it. She insults and mocks him, by telling that he made her call him "My Lannister Giant". Remember the reaction to that: everybody laughs (everybody but Tywin, of course). Was that remark necessary? Not really. Was it Shae's personal contribution to Tyrion's misery? Damn right it was. What kind of a person would not only trust the dagger into Tyrion, but also twirl it for the greater pain? Only an immoral person. Being low-born can excuse a lot of things, but not for this one. And on top of everything, when he finally confronts her in Tywin's chamber, she even stupidly reminds him of that moment. I'm pretty certain many men would loose it at that instance. In the end, great many other characters in this story deserve the sympathy more than Shae does.

Well the thought that she brings it up so casually later makes me think she was talked into saying it rather than willingly humiliate him. If she's the heartless bitch everyone states she is, she wouldn't be so stupid as to remind him of it ; unless she was told to mention it. She also tells him that Tywin scares her, and idk, she seems rather genuine ; maybe she's just a really good actress (although it doesn't make sense for her to pretend at this precise moment).

In any case, she didn't deserve to die. No one deserves to die for humiliating another person, however awful that might be, and I stand by my point that Shae never had the 1/1000 of the chance/comfort Tyrion had in life, did what she was paid for (and she wasn't even really paid in the end), took another "protector" (questionably willingly) which was with her right, and unjustly lost her life.

[Old Man River]

Personally, I felt that the duel scene, while brilliantly choreographed,

I thought the choreography was lame because:

a - The Mountain didn't seem menacing at all. He looked lumbering and stiff.

b - All the hoping around didn't seem to fit into real need. It was sizzle without the steak.

It would have worked better if Oberyn was really seeming to be down early and then coming back with some cool moves later.

[Mr Fixit]

I love the smell of napalm in the morning. That and the smell of those that are greater catholics than the Pope.

In a new interview, Martin was asked what he particularly liked this season. His answer?

Trial by combat was amazing.

Of course, Martin is not God. We don' t have to have the same opinion as he just because he's the creator of all this stuff, but I still find it highly satisfying when stuff like this occurs. Soon we'll be in Misery territory and that'll be a sight to behold! :wub:

[Sun]

I love the smell of napalm in the morning. That and the smell of those that are greater catholics than the Pope.

In a new interview, Martin was asked what he particularly liked this season. His answer?

Trial by combat was amazing.

Of course, Martin is not God. We don' t have to have the same opinion as he just because he's the creator of all this stuff, but I still find it highly satisfying when stuff like this occurs. Soon we'll be in Misery territory and that'll be a sight to behold! :wub:

You're saying he complimented the most pivotal scene of the latest episode of the show based on his books??!! :o STOP THE PRESSES!

[Mr Fixit]

You're saying he complimented the most pivotal scene of the latest episode of the show based on his books??!! :o STOP THE PRESSES!

Yes. He could've chosen any scene he liked, but he specifically mentioned this one with several others (Tyrion's trial, for example). So you know, maybe, just maybe, he did like the way it ended up looking in the show? Yeah, crazy.

[ParasocialDude]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9TCJmXDPPo

Hilarious video of Mountain v Viper ep being spoiled for youngest viewers of the show ever!

[Neumond]

In any case, she didn't deserve to die. No one deserves to die for humiliating another person, however awful that might be,(...)

Thank you!

It is awful to see people constantly claiming Tyrion was right to kill her because she was mean to him. Thats a horrifying thought!

Even if she did everything she is accused of, because she is an evil gold digger, it wasnt justified to kill her! And Tyrion killed her in a horrible way!

[Le Cygne]

<snip>

Liked your reaction to the "Sansa" scene - Dark Side Sansa, Evil Sansa, Morally Questionable Sansa, Sith Sansa, Darth Sansa...

And why exactly does Sansa need to "seduce" Littlefinger again? He was completely turned on before that, because she reminded him of Catelyn. And yet, when she comes on to him as Cersei 2.0 (if Cersei wore a Maleficent Halloween costume), he's more turned on than ever. Rather inconsistent with his characterization there.

And as for her characterization, that's nonexistent, as usual. She goes from vacuous for nearly two seasons to vamp in one episode.

[Miodrag]

Thank you!

It is awful to see people constantly claiming Tyrion was right to kill her because she was mean to him. Thats a horrifying thought!

Even if she did everything she is accused of, because she is an evil gold digger, it wasnt justified to kill her! And Tyrion killed her in a horrible way!

Being mean to someone is one thing. Contributing to someone's death sentence and adding a very personal, hurtful and humiliating remark is really something else. Nobody's saying Tyrion should've killed her because she was mean to him (in fact, their relationship was the other way around: she was never mean to him, but he was sometimes mean to her, though it didn't produce any unrepairable damage). That's just an unnecessary simplification of what I said. But let me ask you this: would you absolve Shae? You see nothing wrong in the way she delivered her testimony? You'd let her go unpunished for that? You think a person like Shae, had she lived, would ever be able to help anyone? That she'd hesitate to destroy someone else's life in the future?

Allow me to be blunt: regardless of was Tyrion right to kill her or not, she definitely deserved to die infinitely more than Garred did. And, speaking of the way she died, let's not forget Tyrion was looking her in the eyes. Just like he was looking Tywin in the eyes when he was killing him. By the old ways Starks go by - and I respect a lot - Tyrion was possibly in the right with both Tywin and Shae.

To be clear, I'm not entirely convinced Shae deserved to be killed by Tyrion, though I'm pretty sure she deserved a severe punishment for her conduct. And, back to the topic (sort of), I always took Tyrion's ASOS arc as the question of deserving. He feels that, after Blackwater Battle, he finally deserves the Castersly Rock and to be generally accepted by his family as an equal. And then, to his shock, he realizes he's even more despised by them than before. And on top of that, he finally sees he doesn't have one more thing he foolishly thought he deserved/earned: Shae's love. Ultimately, he's saved not by Oberyn - had Oberyn saved his life, it'd be entirely without Tyrion's contribution, which is something the show changed by having Tyrion demanding a trial by combat before Oberyn's offer - but by Jaime, perhaps the only person whose love and help Tyrion unquestionably deserved. In the show, all of that is lost, and, even worse, replaced by a cheap, shallow "nothing's ever logical" philosophy demonstrated in the beetles monologue.

[The BlackBear]

Ok I'll give my thoughts on the fight.

The Mountain was too slow, especially given that Bronn had in the show previously said, he's much faster than he has any right to be (just like in the books,) he didn't look like he'd had any real power behind his swings. Then he mysteriously just let Oberyn get another spear when his last one broke, instead of pressing his advantage. The Mountain hasn't really been in the show a lot compared to the books, and the second guy to play him wasn't very big at all, so he doesn't have the instant fearsome reputation he does in the books. Then having wideshots makes the size difference less apparent.

Oberyns fighting style was just odd. Couple this with the apparent ease with which he first knocked off his helemt then shoved a spear through Plate.

It was too far away from the action, it didn't feel personal, and it didn't feel dangerous. Pedro's delivery of the lines was great even if they were changed.

And overall it was too short.

Other than the fight: Sansa's change just seemed abrupt and unnecessary. It diminished Petyrs cunning enormously.

[Neumond]

Being mean to someone is one thing. Contributing to someone's death sentence and adding a very personal, hurtful and humiliating remark is really something else. Nobody's saying Tyrion should've killed her because she was mean to him (in fact, their relationship was the other way around: she was never mean to him, but he was sometimes mean to her, though it didn't produce any unrepairable damage). That's just an unnecessary simplification of what I said. But let me ask you this: would you absolve Shae? You see nothing wrong in the way she delivered her testimony? You'd let her go unpunished for that? You think a person like Shae, had she lived, would ever be able to help anyone? That she'd hesitate to destroy someone else's life in the future?

Allow me to be blunt: regardless of was Tyrion right to kill her or not, she definitely deserved to die infinitely more than Garred did. And, speaking of the way she died, let's not forget Tyrion was looking her in the eyes. Just like he was looking Tywin in the eyes when he was killing him. By the old ways Starks go by - and I respect a lot - Tyrion was possibly in the right with both Tywin and Shae.

To be clear, I'm not entirely convinced Shae deserved to be killed by Tyrion, though I'm pretty sure she deserved a severe punishment for her conduct. And, back to the topic (sort of), I always took Tyrion's ASOS arc as the question of deserving. He feels that, after Blackwater Battle, he finally deserves the Castersly Rock and to be generally accepted by his family as an equal. And then, to his shock, he realizes he's even more despised by them than before. And on top of that, he finally sees he doesn't have one more thing he foolishly thought he deserved/earned: Shae's love. Ultimately, he's saved not by Oberyn - had Oberyn saved his life, it'd be entirely without Tyrion's contribution, which is something the show changed by having Tyrion demanding a trial by combat before Oberyn's offer - but by Jaime, perhaps the only person whose love and help Tyrion unquestionably deserved. In the show, all of that is lost, and, even worse, replaced by a cheap, shallow "nothing's ever logical" philosophy demonstrated in the beetles monologue.

First: I didnt meant to answer solely on your response. Its just something I saw so many times.

Second: I am actually of the opinion that the death sentence is never justified. So the argument that i"f Garred died she has to, too" doesnt work for me. I think neither of them had to die for what they did.

I am sorry that I oversimplified things. I am indeed guilty of this. But I am still not convinced that she was the sole thing that nailed Tyrions coffin in the trial. His guilt was decided before the trial started and if Shae wouldnt have been there I am sure they would have found another person. That means not that she isnt guilty of contributing to his death sentence.

And btw dont killing someone doesnt mean they go away unpunished.

My post was directed to the thinking that Shae deserved to die and I think she didnt. That absolutely doesnt mean I think she did the right thing or doesnt deserve to be punished.

And no, I dont like the old Stark-way of killing people while looking them in the eyes either. It is just slightly less horrible than do it otherwise.

I do like your thoughts on Tyrions arc. It makes me wonder, why I never thought of it this way.

[Le Cygne]

We only ever saw Shae through Tyrion's perspective, and he saw her exactly how he wanted to see her. She was a three-dimensional person the whole time; that's why her betrayal is such a shock for him - he doesn't actually know anything about her.

Of course Tyrion is misogynist. It's been an integral part of his character fro the begining, and it's been there in plain sight. He sees Shae not as a person but as a fulfillment of his fears and frustrations. He sees her as his property. That's why George would be doing a very bad service to the story and to Tyrion's charaterization if he wrote Shae as a 3 dimensional character: Tyrion never would see her that way.

In any case, she didn't deserve to die. No one deserves to die for humiliating another person, however awful that might be, and I stand by my point that Shae never had the 1/1000 of the chance/comfort Tyrion had in life, did what she was paid for (and she wasn't even really paid in the end), took another "protector" (questionably willingly) which was with her right, and unjustly lost her life.

Great points all.

And of course Shae didn't deserve to die, and of course we were supposed to think it was wrong, because it was.

[Mladen]

snip

I have said this many times... Maleficent, Black Swan, Darth whatever... This was, IMO, a Bloodraven reference... When you have black clothes with feathers, and there is a raven on poster for the season, that is the correct association... Not the outside reference... It seems like people are unable to have two pop culture phenomenons in their heads at the same time...