The quest for Daniel Abraham's "particular line of dialog"

[Mychel_Redfort]

It seems to be inconsistent, since I was sure at one point that Tyrion only had black hair in his beard, but the ADWD quote about strands of "black" hair clinging to Tyrion's brow seems to state otherwise.

from aSoS Tyrion II :

Come the afternoon, he put the book aside and called for a bath. He scrubbed himself until the water grew cool, and then had Pod even out his whiskers. His beard was trial to him; a tangle of yellow, white, and black hairs, patchy and coarse, it was seldom less than unsightly, but it did serve to conceal some of his face, and that was all to the good.

In the light of A+J=L, remember that the first speech of Tyrion in the books is with Jon at the feast, and it's about bastards. Everybody assumed it was about Jon, but there could be a double entendre. So it would fit to have Tyrion publicly acknowledging he's a bastard, perhaps through a Bran's vision, mirroring :

"Let me give you some counsel, bastard," Lannister said. "Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you."

[Ser Greg of House House]

I still think A+J=T could be part of the last scene. Why not? It's very hard to predict things like that. But... The ending could be someone (Bran?) decoding the unity of the prophecies and finally understanding what it was all about. Something that explains how Tyrion riding a dragon and being the third head makes sense because he was a secret Targ (bastard) would fit. So it could end in one of Martin's sequence of visions/images through time, and Bran sees Aerys and Joanna or something like that.

[butterbumps!]

And, yes, the line about starvation is there.

Ah, ok, so that one could be interesting to consider. I think the words about the beheading are pretty significant and wouldn't consider those "throwaways." But the one about quick death versus starvation and cold doesn't stand as out being automatically poignant within the chapter, so I guess it could be a throwaway.

But given we're talking about the final scene in a book called "A Dream of Spring" (spring hasn't come, I guess?), which is supposed to have involved a major existential battle of winter, maybe this comes back into play at the end in terms of figuring out how to cut losses or who to save or something? And the memory that this line originally refers to the direwolves becomes significant in that choice?

I love it. Do you mind if I copy/paste your exact words in the OP?

lol, sure! I'm not super confident, but it could work. This one definitely has a kind of broad, universal theme to it.

[Roddy Darwin]

But given we're talking about the final scene in a book called "A Dream of Spring" (spring hasn't come, I guess?), which is supposed to have involved a major existential battle of winter, maybe this comes back into play at the end in terms of figuring out how to cut losses or who to save or something? And the memory that this line originally refers to the direwolves becomes significant in that choice?

I love it. Do you mind if I copy/paste your exact words in the OP?

[alienarea]

The thing about Tyrion taking the black is that it's referenced at several instances in the series: "I hope you're not thinking of taking the black on us," for one. I don't know why that particular line butterbumps mentioned about taking the black would be the sine qua non that would figure into the last scene. Ditto for anything else referenced several times in different ways: R+L=J, e.g.

I think we're looking for something that isn't specifically referenced anywhere else: Jon's "prophecy" about Arya would fit. There are other potential references to Arya dying young, but none about her being found dead in the snow.

Good catch. Maybe it's not as early on as I thought.

In my understanding the line from Jon to Arya does not only hint at her fate, but also his. They will find her with a needle clutched in her hands, not Jon. To me that implies:

- Jon dies before Arya

- There will be a spring in the end

- The last scene will be they finding Arya

- they will be the remaining wolves of Nymeria's pack

because two more quotes:

- the lone wolf dies but the pack survives

- the direwolves will be the last, but eventually their time will come as well (both paraphrased)

[Son of a Harpy]

"Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he’s seated on a dragon’s back."

[Roddy Darwin]

Have you looked into Bran's coma dream chapter? Or would that be too late in terms of the comic adaptation? It strikes me as a chapter where there may be an important line.

Bran's coma dream is in issue 2. It could indeed very well be there, thanks! I'll give it a shot.

[Faint]

I think it should be stressed that the idea that the line involves Tyrion is only one possible supposition and a very weak one at that, even though I was the one to first suggest the idea.

When Newstar and I discussed this topic before, I only brought up Abraham's interview after Martin's editor mentioned that Abraham knew the ending to Tyrion's story. That does not necessarily mean that this is what was referenced when Abraham was taking about having to reinsert a line of dialogue into the graphic novel adaptation because Martin wanted in there and because it alluded to events towards the conclusion of the series. It is very well possible that Abrahams knows the ending to several of the characters' stories and that we are unduly focusing on Tyrion.

That all being said, I still think the line about Arya is easily the strongest contender. It is the only one of the lines suggested that checks every criteria on the list, both the criteria that we know to be true and that which is heavily suspected of being the case.

• It is both in the book and in one of the earliest graphic novels.

• It is completely innocuous at the time it occurs in the story. It is not obviously foreshadowing because when Jon says the line, Needle does not exist. It is simply a joke as far as we know at the time when we first read the line.

• It directly references the end of the series for one of its principle characters.

• It could very well reference a scene in a Bran chapter, which is likely to be the final point-of-view in the series, since Bran is the most likely avenue by which we can see Arya being randomly discovered frozen dead with Needle still gripped in her fingers.

I can even imagine this being the very final scene in the books. We are in a Bran chapter, spring has finally come after a long winter, he is checking on the realm via raven and weirwoods, and the very last passage is Bran watching some random villager coming upon a frozen Arya.

[butterbumps!]

I think it should be stressed that the idea that the line involves Tyrion is only one possible supposition and a very weak one at that, even though I was the one to first suggest the idea.

When Newstar and I discussed this topic before, I only brought up Abraham's interview after Martin's editor mentioned that Abraham knew the ending to Tyrion's story. That does not necessarily mean that this is what was referenced when Abraham was taking about having to reinsert a line of dialogue into the graphic novel adaptation because Martin wanted in there and because it alluded to events towards the conclusion of the series. It is very well possible that Abrahams knows the ending to several of the characters' stories and that we are unduly focusing on Tyrion.

That all being said, I still think the line about Arya is easily the strongest contender. It is the only one of the lines suggested that checks every criteria on the list, both the criteria that we know to be true and that which is heavily suspected of being the case.

• It is both in the book and in one of the earliest graphic novels.

• It is completely innocuous at the time it occurs in the story. It is not obviously foreshadowing because when Jon says the line, Needle does not exist. It is simply a joke as far as we know at the time when we first read the line.

• It directly references the end of the series for one of its principle characters.

• It could very well reference a scene in a Bran chapter, which is likely to be the final point-of-view in the series, since Bran is the most likely avenue by which we can see Arya being randomly discovered frozen dead with Needle still gripped in her fingers.

I can even imagine this being the very final scene in the books. We are in a Bran chapter, spring has finally come after a long winter, he is checking on the realm via raven and weirwoods, and the very last passage is Bran watching some random villager coming upon a frozen Arya.

I like the Arya idea too, and it has a really ominous vibe.

But what's keeping me from accepting that this is what's meant is:

• Even in its original, innocuous context, that line is a poignant part of the dialogue. It's what connects it back to the beginning of the chapter. It's not a throwaway.
• Even though Needle is given to Arya in the following Jon chapter, and therefore, this second meaning doesn't exist yet at the time it's said, presumably Abraham had read at least that next Jon chapter before scripting out Arya I. So the author would know that Needle is a recurring symbol for Arya, and as such, probably wouldn't have overlooked this line in the previous chapter.

[Faint]

I like the Arya idea too, and it has a really ominous vibe.

But what's keeping me from accepting that this is what's meant is:

• Even in its original, innocuous context, that line is a poignant part of the dialogue. It's what connects it back to the beginning of the chapter. It's not a throwaway.

Even though Needle is given to Arya in the following Jon chapter, and therefore, this second meaning doesn't exist yet at the time it's said, presumably Abraham had read at least that next Jon chapter before scripting out Arya I. So the author would know that Needle is a recurring symbol for Arya, and as such, probably wouldn't have overlooked this line in the previous chapter.

I am not denying that all of this is true retrospectively but that is not what Abraham was getting at. The focus here is examining the line on first impression. While very soon after it becomes the case that the line is both very poignant and suspect of being explicit foreshadowing, none of that is true when you first read the line.

If, to use an extreme example, you had stopped reading the series right after finishing that chapter, there would be no reason to think of the line as anything more than a joke.

Contrast that with something like: "When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood as tall as a king."

That is a line which is immediately identifiable as possible foreshadowing and very consequential in how we view the character it is about.

[butterbumps!]

I am not denying that all of this is true retrospectively but that is not what Abraham was getting at. The focus here is examining the line on first impression. While very soon after it becomes the case that the line is both very poignant and suspect of being explicit foreshadowing, none of that is true when you first read the line.

If, to use an extreme example, you had stopped reading the series right after finishing that chapter, there would be no reason to think of the line as anything more than a joke.

Contrast that with something like: "When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood as tall as a king."

That is line which is immediately identifiable as possible foreshadowing and very consequential in how we view the character it is about.

Ok. But Abraham has presumably read the entire series. The question is why would he overlook/ omit this line in his draft of Arya I?

Didn't this whole question arise because he left something out of his draft of some part of aGoT and Martin had him go back and revise a scene to include what apparently looks like a throwaway line, but will be significant to the end of the series?

Would anyone who's read the books and is adapting them to graphic novels omit that line? Speaking for myself, I wouldn't.

[Faint]

Ok. But Abraham has presumably read the entire series. The question is why would he overlook/ omit this line in his draft of Arya I?

Didn't this whole question arise because he left something out of his draft of some part of aGoT and Martin had him go back and revise a scene to include what apparently looks like a throwaway line, but will be significant to the end of the series?

Would anyone who's read the books and is adapting them to graphic novels omit that line? Speaking for myself, I wouldn't.

Well, to start with, the graphic novel simply cannot accommodate so much dialogue, so a lot of it is cut. The fact that it was included is actually pretty notable within the format of a comic book.

As for when Abraham referenced the line, he specifically did so in isolation, saying that you could not tell by just reading it that it would be so consequential. So he addressed it out of context.

Not that I am certain about any of this, obviously, but in light of the criteria, I do find it the most plausible by far over anything else that has been suggested or other options I have identified myself.

[Shebara]

I'm not sure if it has to be Tyrion-related, but a few somewhat seemingly "throwaway" Tyrion lines, that seem like they could make reasonable sense for the last scene are:

Tyrion to Morm: “My brother Jaime will be wondering what has become of me. He may decide that you have convinced me to take the black.”

Aemon to Tyrion: “I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world.”

Tyrion to Morm: “When I was a boy,” Tyrion replied, “my wet nurse told me that one day, if men were good, the gods would give the world a summer without ending. Perhaps we’ve been better than we thought, and the Great Summer is finally at hand.” He grinned.

Guard: “And what will you be wanting, this time of night?” the one by the winch asked. Tyrion: “A last look [from the Wall].”

Tyrion to Bronn: “Why then, I’ll have one mourner whose grief is sincere,” Tyrion said, grinning. “The gold ends when I do.”

Tyrion to Robb: “If you are a lord, you might learn a lord’s courtesy,” the little man replied, ignoring the sword point in his face. “Your bastard brother has all your father’s graces, it would seem.”

Tyrion to Bran: “You will,” the dwarf told him. “And I swear to you, boy, on horseback you will be as tall as any of them.”

ETA: I really don't think anything A+J =T related makes any sense for the last scene of the series.

Well...I said that Bran could well have taken the weirnet via past and weirwood tree at Harrenhall and warged into the KotLT ...to be a knight for once!!! ..and hop...with that started some things (Lyanna/Rhaegar) in the past with consequenses for the Realm and for his family

[butterbumps!]

Well, to start with, the graphic novel simply cannot accommodate so much dialogue, so a lot of it is cut. The fact that it was included is actually pretty notable within the format of a comic book.

As for when Abraham referenced the line, he specifically did so in isolation, saying that you could not tell by just reading it that it would be so consequential. So he addressed it out of context.

Not that I am certain about any of this, obviously, but in light of the criteria, I do find it the most plausible by far over anything else that has been suggested or other options I have identified myself.

I don't find the fact that it was left in to be all that notable. Needle and needlework is a hugely symbolic part of her arc. Not to mention that this line is a particular poignant one that concludes the beginning of the chapter, which begins with her fleeing a sewing lesson, as well as the fact that this pretty succinctly conveys the nature of their relationship. I'd say it's one of the more critical lines in Arya I in general. Especially if you've read further in the books.

We're talking about a line that someone who knows about Needle and Arya's arc generally would omit from the draft he showed Martin. I'd be kind of shocked if he left this line out. I think most people who have read beyond Arya I would include that line in their chapter-by-chapter adaptations. This just doesn't seem like a throwaway that an adapter would omit.

I think this line will resurface again. But I'm wondering why someone who's aware of Arya's arc would leave this out of a chapter-by-chapter adaptation in the first place.

[Faint]

I don't find the fact that it was left in to be all that notable . . .

I think someone gave you the wrong impression about how much material the graphic novels cover. I mean, they are going pretty slow with it and they do get to a lot of the story, but even then a lot of material by necessity has to be cut. That line about Tyrion standing as tall as a king, for example, did not make it into Jon's thoughts in the graphic novel, despite how notable it is for book readers.

[Ser Greg of House House]

You kind of convinced me and now I'm sad for Arya :(

[The Old Tongue]

How about a Nymeria POV. Maybe she stumbles upon a dying Arya and the two unite.

[bent branch]

First, my thoughts on where in AGOT we'll find the line integral to the final scene. Since issue 19 of AGOT comic book was only released on May 27, 2014 we can assume that the line of dialog is no further than Issue 6, or about 1/3 of the way through currently published issues. Issue 6 ends at the same place that Chapter 23 ends. Therefore, I don't think we will find the line any later that Chapter 23.

Of the two most debated lines so far, All Dwarves and Needle, I think the All Dwarves is almost certainly not the line referred to. Not only would such information need to be revealed much earlier there is no reasonable way that line could have been left out considering the whole dwarves and bastards conversation that Tyrion and Jon were having. I think the Needle line is possible, but I wouldn't have left that line out as soon as I knew Jon was giving Arya Needle. So I think it is possible, but not probable.

Here is my first candidate for a line that may have been overlooked but could be important to the last scene, "When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away." This is where Ned is talking to Bran about carrying out justice. I can see were the last scene would be someone who appears to have "gotten away" being found by Bran and Bran killing them. If this happens, then the person Bran kills will be someone who it feels appropriate.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

That all being said, I still think the line about Arya is easily the strongest contender. It is the only one of the lines suggested that checks every criteria on the list, both the criteria that we know to be true and that which is heavily suspected of being the case.

• It is both in the book and in one of the earliest graphic novels.

• It is completely innocuous at the time it occurs in the story. It is not obviously foreshadowing because when Jon says the line, Needle does not exist. It is simply a joke as far as we know at the time when we first read the line.

• It directly references the end of the series for one of its principle characters.

• It could very well reference a scene in a Bran chapter, which is likely to be the final point-of-view in the series, since Bran is the most likely avenue by which we can see Arya being randomly discovered frozen dead with Needle still gripped in her fingers.

I can even imagine this being the very final scene in the books. We are in a Bran chapter, spring has finally come after a long winter, he is checking on the realm via raven and weirwoods, and the very last passage is Bran watching some random villager coming upon a frozen Arya.

All that does make a lot of sense, yet it begets another question.

Assuming that's the final scene of the series... do I actually still want GRRM to finish it? Or do I want him to say "Aww, hell, I never enjoyed making door stoppers anyway, I'm more of a short story dude. People asked me about Haviland Tuf and his cats, and I always wanted to go back to Wo & Shade's little shop of wonders, and remember 'She-Wolves of Winterfell'? I'm gonna write it!"?

I'm seriously torn here.

[butterbumps!]

I think someone gave you the wrong impression about how much material the graphic novels cover. I mean, they are going pretty slow with it and they do get to a lot of the story, but even then a lot of material by necessity has to be cut. That line about Tyrion standing as tall as a king, for example, did not make it into Jon's thoughts in the graphic novel, despite how notable it is for book readers.

Ok, so I stopped at my local comic shop while I was out yesterday, and read some of the first volume while in the store (I didn't buy it though, so I don't have it as a reference). It does cover less dialogue than what I was envisioning.

That said, I'm still a bit skeptical that the Arya line would be the one left out. Does it really stand out less than "it should have been you," or "I just want to stand on top of the Wall and piss off the edge of the world" in terms of setting up the characters' personalities and relationships? Without that line, naming the sword "Needle" doesn't make as much sense in the following chapter. It has a very immediate significance to the story.

As a second inquiry, I also started wondering about whether looking for imagery "foreshadowing" might be a faulty assumption (to be clear, I was assuming foreshadowing myself as well initially). I'm wondering if this should be a line of dialogue said to or a by a character that will have an impact on that final scene. Something that just sets up an image of the final scene might not be so critical that Martin would be compelled to ask for a rewrite. For example, "it should have been you" has a actionable ramifications, in terms of Bran-Jon exchange, or something else considering we have Lady Stoneheart in the story, etc. As another example, the exchange about the deserter also carries weight in terms of instruction for further action by one of the parties about how to deal with a deserter of the Watch. I'm wondering if something that only has foreshadowing weight as imagery (like the Arya line, like Tyrion pissing off the Wall) would really be critical enough to Martin.