Chiki Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 There are far bigger perpetrators in that category. And there are no other places like Israel, only Israel. It doesn't really matter if Nazis or others have killed more people. What matters is how many people they would have killed if presented with the opportunity. It doesn't seem like they're any less vicious than them in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Will Iraq simply divide into a Sunni State, a Shia State, and a Kurdish State?The last would make Turkey very nervous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Will Iraq simply divide into a Sunni State, a Shia State, and a Kurdish State?The last would make Turkey very nervous. The Kurdistan Regional Government's relations with Turkey have improved as it has nudged its way to greater and greater de facto independence. Mosul falling to ISIS will if anything strengthen that relationship. There's no viable state to be formed out of Anbar, Salahuddin and Nineveh, and whatever their pretensions, ISIS aren't state-builders. We're looking at a stateless zone comprising of those three provinces and eastern Syria, not partition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Did they actually roflstomp anyone? I think "roflstomped" is as good a term as any to describe what happened to iraq. In the gulf war and later the Iraq war . In both conflicts the Iraqi military was thoroughly fucked. Of course the occupation of Iraq in 03 didnt go so well, but we DID kick out the insurgents, and we DID absolve Sadams military and replaced it with a force trained by us. Of course that force is currently failing but that's besides the point. Unfortunately at this point im not sure whats to be done. This would be the third time we move on Iraq and honestly its such a cesspit is it even worth it? The people there seem determined to wipe each other out over religious differences. ETA: Im not saying any of the above conflicts were right or justified, I just think its preposterous to pretend NATO did poorly against the Iraqi army(which was huge) and the insurgents that popped up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbstark Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 It doesn't really matter if Nazis or others have killed more people. What matters is how many people they would have killed if presented with the opportunity. It doesn't seem like they're any less vicious than them in that regard. you mean kinda like the US, presented with the opportunity under the banner of Manifest Destiny, terrorized Native Americans? to be clear, I don't mean to merely aggravate, I'd like to point out that what we call terrorism tends to be cherry picked. And while this particular organization might be extremely dangerous, It didn't happen by accident, and using the label of "evil" as the sole qualifier to get involved anywhere is mighty hypocritical, no matter what culture you come from. Also, not convincing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 you mean kinda like the US, presented with the opportunity under the banner of Manifest Destiny, terrorized Native Americans? to be clear, I don't mean to merely aggravate, I'd like to point out that what we call terrorism tends to be cherry picked. And while this particular organization might be extremely dangerous, It didn't happen by accident, and using the label of "evil" as the sole qualifier to get involved anywhere is mighty hypocritical, no matter what culture you come from. Also, not convincing. The point you're bringing up isn't really relevant. I agree that Obama and the US are responsible for a lot of terrorism, too. But I think the ISIS is a special case that may need force to resolve regardless of whether or not America is ultimately responsible for them acquiring power. I can still think Obama is a terrorist but acknowledge that he's the lesser of two evils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 What is it with this board and neo-Safavid fifth columnists? Enough already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbstark Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 The point you're bringing up isn't really relevant. I agree that Obama and the US are responsible for a lot of terrorism, too. But I think the ISIS is a special case that may need force to resolve regardless of whether or not America is ultimately responsible for them acquiring power. I can still think Obama is a terrorist but acknowledge that he's the lesser of two evils. respectfully, I disagree. You said, and I quote, " What matters is how many people they would have killed if presented with the opportunity." comparing these terrorists to Nazis. Point being, acts of terror have been occurring continuously throughout history, often with massive amounts of casualties, and without later being labelled as "acts of terror". Though this group is extreme, they weren't created haphazardly. Every single minutiae that happened in the Middle East since the end of the colonial era has lead to the creation of this particular extremist group. They are borne of injustice and anger at precisely that thing: meddling. Like a leaky pipe, we put a stopper on one end, just so it would leak through another. This happens because we're just not welcome there. Meddling somewhere where you don't understand the culture and the rhyme and reason to the way things operate has only lead to more chaos. The only reason we ever really do it anymore, is to "protect our interests abroad". And that in itself should speak volumes of who really benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivin Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Y'all're communists, goddamn 'Merica should be on them doorsteps. 2nd Amendment! Constitutionally! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThinkerX Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Unfortunately, the world may have to take a direct interest in Iraq for the same (and real) reason the US invaded: Oil. Iraq is sitting on top of one of the four largest easily accessible oil fields on the planet (from a technical POV, not a political one). Present day civilization is totally dependent on oil to function, and other fields are running low. That said, the middle eastern 'spring' of a year or two back - an event which toppled or threatened governments across the region shows how volatile the ME is. With the possible exception of the Kurds, I don't really see any 'good guys' in the region, merely would-be dictators of varying stripes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 My point is not that Islamic extremism is not bad. Its more like: Remember the last time we invaded Iraq and it devolved into civil war shortly after we left? (and, actually, kinda while we were there too) I'm pretty sure we have exhausted our efforts to undo the situation that we caused in Iraq in 2003 and I do not think that US military intervention in Iraq (again) is going to solve its problems unless it was some real fire and brimstone shit. In reality we'd be right back to square 1 in fighting an insurgency and we apparently are not very good at that. Partly because we are rightfully squeamish about civilian casualties. The US spent 8 years building and training an Iraqi Army that either collaborated with ISIS or turned tail and ran at the first sign of trouble. In either case, what good will more nation-building do? I think free ideas need to be homegrown, you can't inflict your ideology on someone that isn't ready or willing to hear it unless you are willing to spend generations doing it. Uh, the army has been fighting these guys for months now. They didn't run at the first sign of trouble, they ran after they became demoralized and tired do to endless fighting for poor pay with no sign of any real victory in sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 As for intervention, there seems little chance that a military intervention would actually help the situation, so stick to political pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Meh. Third times a charm, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetitansbastard Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I just don't see why any of this BS is tolerated. If the world powers including the USA, UK, EU, Israel, Arab League, Russia, China, India etc. could just unite against Militant Islamic Terrorism, couldn't it be wiped out? why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 As for intervention, there seems little chance that a military intervention would actually help the situation, so stick to political pressure. On who? Saudi Arabia and other Arab states? Are they the ones who are backing ISIS and other groups like them? Or others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I just don't see why any of this BS is tolerated. If the world powers including the USA, UK, EU, Israel, Arab League, Russia, China, India etc. could just unite against Militant Islamic Terrorism, couldn't it be wiped out? why not? Its harder then it sounds. These guys hide among the people, and getting at them invariably leads to civilian deaths(hence all the bitching about drones). Eradicating this issue completely with military force alone would be ugly and allot of innocents would die. Any one of the countries you listed(barring perhaps the arab league) has more then enough force to take on the terrorists, problem is collateral damage. Another big problem is the cost, but I consider the innocent deaths a bigger issue, it would be a humanitarian nightmare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 The whole reason this is happening in the first place is because of foreign, specifically US, intervention. We've sown enough chaos and destruction in the Middle East, let them kill each other in peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetitansbastard Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Its harder then it sounds. These guys hide among the people, and getting at them invariably leads to civilian deaths(hence all the bitching about drones). Eradicating this issue completely with military force alone would be ugly and allot of innocents would die. Any one of the countries you listed(barring perhaps the arab league) has more then enough force to take on the terrorists, problem is collateral damage. Another big problem is the cost, but I consider the innocent deaths a bigger issue, it would be a humanitarian nightmare. A lot of innocents are dying right now. Theoretically, would we even need drones? Would we even need airstrikes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Theoretically, would we even need drones? Would we even need airstrikes? Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetitansbastard Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 The whole reason this is happening in the first place is because of foreign, specifically US, intervention. We've sown enough chaos and destruction in the Middle East, let them kill each other in peace What specifically was the cause? I have to assume you mean pre-9/11? Sometimes I think isolationist is the way to go, but what about when a group like ISIL has control of the entire Middle East? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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