Kudos to Rory McCann (possible book spoilers)

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Even as a farmer we would need to kill someone. A thief, an intruder, a broken man trying to rob him. Every man in Westeros needs to kill not due to heroism or to defeat the villain but to survive, or because it's his obligation. Either way, killing is an important part of their lives and there is anything heroic about that.

The problem Sandor has with Sansa is that she had a very black/white ideas about what a knight is. That the knight is the "good guy" and he's always right. For example, her father had to kill Arthur Dayne, whose intentions (along with Whent and Hightower) were probably as good as his own.

I don't know, maybe the killing complaints can be taken up with Cousin Orsen? KKHHUU KKKKHHHUUUUU KKHUUU

[Le Cygne]

For example, her father had to kill Arthur Dayne, whose intentions (along with Whent and Hightower) were probably as good as his own.

Agreed, I think NCW is hilarious, he's always bringing up Ned as an example. Nedbert is what led Ned astray. A maiden's dream, yeah, right. The whole Lyanna thing haunted Ned, so did the Lady thing, he didn't REALLY do the right thing.

Maester Aemon (talking to Jon) is being facetious here about Ned, he doesn't think he's one man in ten thousand:

"He would do whatever was right," he said... ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. "No matter what."

"Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms ... or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy."

Of course, NCW actually thinks he's Jaime when he's talking. There are method actors and then there's NCW. He never lets it go. That commentary when he gave the King of the North hell was so funny. Here we go:

I share Jaime's view that there is an absurd sense of double standards going on with and around Ned Stark. Jaime killed a king that made Hitler look like Gandhi and the world is in shock (though secretly relieved) and mockingly names him Kingslayer.

Early on Ned Stark executes — beheads — a poor, terrified kid whose only crime was to be scared witless. No one takes notice because Ned Stark is an honorable man, and the kid was a deserter. But he kills a defenseless man for speaking the truth.

I believe Jaime feels that Ned Stark should have, at least in private, acknowledged some sort of gratitude for the killing of the man who in the most horrible way killed his brother and father.

http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Features/Entry/Interview_with_Nikolaj_Coster-Waldau

[OldGimletEye]

Agreed, I think NCW is hilarious, he's always bringing up Ned as an example. Nedbert is what led Ned astray. A maiden's dream, yeah, right. The whole Lyanna thing haunted Ned, so did the Lady thing, he didn't REALLY do the right thing.

Was it really a maiden's dream? Or was it really Ned's dream and he was projecting it on some random maiden? :lol:

[Le Cygne]

Was it really a maiden's dream? Or was it really Ned's dream and he was projecting it on some random maiden? :lol:

Exactly. Nedbert, there's a thread somewhere, I think Rapsie knows about it

<snip>

Paging Rapsie...

[rmholt]

She already invoked Godwin's Law, which means you won the point I think.

It's Nazis, and Richard Sexton came up with it, not Mike Godwin. Godwin claimed he came up with it in a Wired article but Ive seen the original and it was Sexton.

Second, someone who guides a drone on orders of the legal government to wipe out a threat to the govt is doing the same thing the Hound did when he went after Mycah. He wasn't happy with the job on a personal level and left. That's why I'd find it odd to call him a monster. To me a monster doesn't have empathy or a sense of good vs evil and is irredeemable. Sandor doesn't fit that model to me.

Sexton also invented Plonk, a useful word for BBS and forums.

[rmholt]

Agreed, I think NCW is hilarious, he's always bringing up Ned as an example. Nedbert is what led Ned astray. A maiden's dream, yeah, right. The whole Lyanna thing haunted Ned, so did the Lady thing, he didn't REALLY do the right thing.

Maester Aemon (talking to Jon) is being facetious here about Ned, he doesn't think he's one man in ten thousand:

Of course, NCW actually thinks he's Jaime when he's talking. There are method actors and then there's NCW. He never lets it go. That commentary when he gave the King of the North hell was so funny. Here we go:

http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Features/Entry/Interview_with_Nikolaj_Coster-Waldau

Nice - the whole post - got truncated here

[OldGimletEye]

<snip>

Let me add further:

I know when discussing Sandor, some people like to mention Nuremburg and Adolf Eichmann. But, here is a tip: Nuremburg did not eliminate the Superior Orders Doctrine as a defense. It limited the defense, but didn't do away with it.

Justice Robert H. Jackson was probably one of the most ardent advocates of limiting the Superior Orders Defense. But, when writing Harry Truman about the Nuremburg Trials, in letter dated June 6, 1945, Jackson acknowledge that there would be situations where the Superior Orders Defense would apply.

You can read Jackson's letter here:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/jack08.asp

See Section III 2

I would note that in Israel, where Eichman was convicted and executed, the Superior Orders defense has not been eliminated. Israeli courts, apparently, apply the "blatant illegality" or "manifest illegality " test, which seems to have fairly wide acceptance when deciding whether the Superior Orders Doctrine ought to be allowed as defense. Modern societies still recognize the need for soldiers to be obedient to orders, even while recognizing there are occasion when soldiers ought to break orders.

There are very strong policy/moral arguments to support the notion that soldiers ought to break certain types of orders. But, let's not pretend that doing so is easy for a soldier. And let's not pretend that doing so, never puts a soldier's life in jeopardy. Finally, without discipline, no combat unit can survive for very long.

Sandor does not live in some kind of liberalized economic order where the employment at will doctrine is the norm. Once Sandor gave his oath to the Lannisters, I am pretty sure that oath was considered to be for life. I don't see Sandor having a bunch of career choices either. The idea that Sandor could have just become a farmer is a bit ridiculous too. How exactly was he supposed to do that? He had no land of his own. Was he supposed to go to the nearest local Bank and get loan in order to purchase the start up capital?

The opinion that a soldier who kills on orders is worse than that of a common murder is one that I think needs to be heavily qualified. If a soldiers kills on an order when he knows the order to be blatantly immoral or illegal, then I can see this point as having some merit. But where the order is carried out under circumstances that are less than clear from a moral or legal point of view, then I think it is hard to conclude that a soldier who kills on orders is worse than a common murder. Certainly, I don't think most people would think that a war veteran is worse than Ted Bundy. In fact, I think most war veterans of countries that have been in armed conflicts with my own country are better people than Ted Bundy.

And let me note, that in my country, duress isn't usually considered as a defense to murder. But, it is usually looked upon as a mitigating circumstance when punishment is decided. I would think that the rule about committing murder under duress is similar in other countries.

Now, I don't want to come off as saying that Sandor was just the epitome of moral purity that was caught up in bad circumstances. I think he has done many morally questionable things. But the basic conclusion that Sandor is worse than some common murder because he killed on orders is just a conclusion I can't really buy. And bringing up Eichmann or other Nazi war criminals, without considering the particular facts of those cases, over simplifies how tribunals have handled cases involving soldiers accused of war crimes.

I do think that Sandor does come to the conclusion that he has to break away from the Lannisters if he wants to avoid doing very morally questionable acts.

The bottom line is that I think these issues have to be thought out very carefully. I don't think the "just following orders" defense is always an appropriate excuse, but I don't think mentioning Eichmann every time a soldier carries out a questionable act is appropriate either.

[Zorn Gottes]

Otherwise I'd think Sandor may survive, if he does, with that farmer and his daughter. Actually I found these two actors, the girl and the father, great too. Bringing them back could be interesting.

I like the idea, though the farmer lives in the Riverlands!

[rmholt]

Let me add further:

I know when discussing Sandor, some people like to mention Nuremburg and Adolf Eichman. But, here is a tip: Nuremburg did not eliminate the Superior Orders Doctrine as a defense. It limited the defense, but didn't do away with it.

...

Now, I don't want to come off as saying that Sandor was just the epitome of moral purity that was caught up in bad circumstances. I think he has done many morally questionable things

...

I do think that Sandor does come to the conclusion that he has to break away from the Lannisters if he wants to avoid doing very morally questionable acts.

.

I think it's really key that they are both fighters and killers and neither has a noble upbringing to say the least but Gregor is the monster and Sandor isn't. Yet the Clegane name has people making Sandor out to be his brother, often to the detriment of his reputation and safety- the BwB blamed him for his brother's work. Clegane, hard SOB, works for Lannisters.

[rmholt]

@rapsie: I "invoked Godwin's Law" before the drones came into the debate, have you realized it? The drones as, what?, Reagan's Law, came later.

Snip

.

If you don't like the reaction you get when you call someone ridiculous then don't do it.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

If we want to get into the complexities of soldiers and war crimes and murder vs following orders (of course, I'd prefer to do so without the Nazi's thrown in), we might as well take into account child abuse and that figures into the legalities.

I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to say that the reason Sandor served the Lannisters is because he was an abused child whose family was wiped out by a serial killer, who just happened to be his brother. Sandor's size and last name contributed to it, I'm sure, but the reason he wound up in the Lannisters service was because he was still a child, probably still a minor by Westerosi standards, iirc, fleeing from his abuser when that abuser became the sole survivor of his family and the head of House Clegane.

Still, Rory did an amazing job, can some of you imagine if he returns and is allowed to portray some of these issues? It could be very interesting.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

And here, I thought the drones were about........how boring half of this trolling has become, LOL Droning on and on.......trying to disrupt the basic purposes of a thread. Most of it has been an annoying bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz in my ear. Just like, you know, the drone of the worker bees.

[OldGimletEye]

I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to say that the reason Sandor served the Lannisters is because he was an abused child whose family was wiped out by a serial killer, who just happened to be his brother. Sandor's size and last name contributed to it, I'm sure, but the reason he wound up in the Lannisters service was because he was still a child, probably still a minor by Westerosi standards, iirc, fleeing from his abuser when that abuser became the sole survivor of his family and the head of House Clegane.

If I recall correctly, Sandor entered Lannister service the day his brother inherited the Clegane lands. Apparently, Clegane Sr. had a "hunting accident".

[1234567]

Exactly. Nedbert, there's a thread somewhere, I think Rapsie knows about itPaging Rapsie...

Sorry watching repeats of Black Books.

It was a great thread started by Winter's Knight. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68354-eddard-and-robert-a-tragic-love-story/

@rapsie: I "invoked Godwin's Law" before the drones came into the debate, have you realized it? The drones as, what?, Reagan's Law, came later.

I don't think it really matters when you invoke it.

Also @mholt , thanks for the info on Mr Sexton, I didn't know that.

Well, I am quite sure that I have won

Well if you can reach one person.

Going back to Rory's acting. I have to admit I wasn't sure about some of his stuff in Season 2 but he got a lot better in Seasons 3&4. I think D&D may have cut lines and just written him badly as he was good in Blackwater.

[rmholt]

I

I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to say that the reason Sandor served the Lannisters is because he was an abused child whose family was wiped out by a serial killer, who just happened to be his brother. C

.

The Cleganes grandfather's dogs saved a Lannister and was raised up and given lands. So they are Lannister banner men and really indebted to their house. That's how they are both serving Lannisters

I hope we see redeemed Sandor too.

[OldGimletEye]

I hope we see redeemed Sandor too.

I hope so too. But I hope he keeps a little of his character, which I don't know how to describe - would "very likeable asshole" be the correct term? Any way, Rory did do a good job of making somebody that's got the social skills of a thermonuclear device be very likeable.

[1234567]

I hope so too. But I hope he keeps a little of his character, which I don't know how to describe - would "very likeable asshole" be the correct term? Any way, Rory did do a good job of making somebody that's got the social skills of a thermonuclear device be very likeable.

Well fingers crossed the line about Stranger not being gelded might mean he hasn't lost all of his personality.

I thought there was an interview somewhere where he hinted at Sandor coming back, but I can't find it anywhere!

[Le Cygne]

I hope so too. But I hope he keeps a little of his character, which I don't know how to describe - would "very likeable asshole" be the correct term? Any way, Rory did do a good job of making somebody that's got the social skills of a thermonuclear device be very likeable.

That sounds good, I think we have a lot of hints he hasn't changed much, and a certain lady admired his "ferocity" and then wished there were "hounds to bark and growl" at the Eyrie. That's in Jane Eyre, too, she liked Mr. Rochester's ferocity. And this is from Jane Eyre, too:

"My little friend!" said he, "I wish I were in a quiet island with only you; and trouble, and danger, and hideous recollections removed from me."

Well fingers crossed the line about Stranger not being gelded might mean he hasn't lost all of his personality.

I thought there was an interview somewhere where he hinted at Sandor coming back, but I can't find it anywhere!

He kept saying "some peace" in the interviews, that's new. He talks about Sansa here, too:

What does the Hound want?

Rory: Arya’s the Hound’s meal ticket now, so a lot it’s about surviving in this violent, dangerous world. So it might mean money, it might mean a place, it might even mean something with peace at the end of it...

Does it help you get into your role when you look at yourself in the mirror once all the makeup has been added?

Rory: There’s been some times where I’ve done a scene—like when the Hound tells the king to piss off, or when I had this quite heavy scene with Sansa trying to convince her to leave with him—and I hadn’t seen my face all day, and then I looked in the mirror and, “Jesus! No wonder you’re scared. Why’d you want to come with me, all covered in blood?”

http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Features/Entry/Season_4_Interview_Maisie_Williams_Rory_McCann

[PetitOiseau]

I remember you, we were on a thread where the same thing was going on. Poor Sandor.

Indeed, that was me! And sadly, yes, the same thing was going on...

[Lady Fevre Dream]

The Cleganes grandfather's dogs saved a Lannister and was raised up and given lands. So they are Lannister banner men and really indebted to their house. That's how they are both serving Lannisters

I hope we see redeemed Sandor too.

Le sigh. You do realize, don't you, that I am talking about the specifics of Sandor serving House Lannister, don't you? Leaving the Clegane estates once Gregor was the Head of House seemed to be the only way for Young Sandor to ensure his own survival. The fact that House Clegane was established by the Lannisters thanks to the dog incident helped, I'm sure, BUT........I suspect that if young Sandor didn't appear to show any potential for becoming a talented man at arms, he'd have been left to his own devices. I was pointing out that Sandor had to go to Casterly Rock itself to serve the Lannisters to save himself from his brother and his brother's control of House Clegane. I highly suspect that Tywin Lannister wouldn't have given two figs about taking in Sandor if he didn't have the size and the promise of becoming a valueable asset as a man at arms in service to House Lannister.