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Kudos to Rory McCann (possible book spoilers)

GloveroftheNorth

By GloveroftheNorth,
in E10: The Children

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KhaleesiDany Landed Knight

KhaleesiDany

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What has GRRM said that makes you think so?

Ah good old citizens of westeros making me look this kind of stuff up all over again :P

It's just my opinion but he seems kind of oblivious to the whole "sansan" dynamic. I'm not saying he doesn't get it, I mean, the man wrote the books, I just don't foresee a happy ending for the two of them where Sandor plays the valiant knight and Sansa the lady (except in fanfiction :blushing: ). As I see it, they overwhelmingly fit the trope of a knight/lady/lord love triangle, with whatever lord you want to include, so I think it could work with just enough unhappiness to make it plausible in the GOT universe, but knowing GRRM he wants to do what would make me most unhappy in this universe and never even mention those two in the same paragraph again.

There is this awkward interview where he seems genuinely surprised about the fan's strong response, despite admitting he played with that idea in the books.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLynybVOi2I

And there is this old interview where he doesn't really answer any questions but I took it to mean that the Hound is attracted to Sansa although she is not attracted to him.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Hound_and_Sansa/

And I just think it's strange that, if they were meant to end up together, HBO focused on their relationship so little since GRRM apparently had to tell the writers all the plot points of the story. Like if it were really important, I think they would have left Rory's EXCELLENT delivery of of how he got his scars instead of giving it to Petyr (which was such a weak scene and if you see Rory's you will agree his is better.)

I guess I just don't get the impression that he is really interested in pursuing that relationship between those characters.

If Sandor does come back I could see it happening for the much anticipated Clegane bowl, although if Sandor is now living a religious life and partially crippled I am not sure how that will turn out for him...and I don't want anyone going in to the arena with Gregor since Oberyn :crying: But no Sansa. And if there is Sansa, I could see GRRM doing something awful like her finally having feelings for him and him being dead inside emotionally and not even wanting her anymore. But GRRM is a troll so I am sure he will surprise me in the end.

Oh and here is Rory McCann reading that great part from the book. I am sure it's been posted all over already but LOOK! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIWX2fPx-5k

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Annara Snow Council Member

Annara Snow

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Ah good old citizens of westeros making me look this kind of stuff up all over again :P

It's just my opinion but he seems kind of oblivious to the whole "sansan" dynamic. I'm not saying he doesn't get it, I mean, the man wrote the books, I just don't foresee a happy ending for the two of them where Sandor plays the valiant knight and Sansa the lady (except in fanfiction :blushing: ). As I see it, they overwhelmingly fit the trope of a knight/lady/lord love triangle, with whatever lord you want to include, so I think it could work with just enough unhappiness to make it plausible in the GOT universe, but knowing GRRM he wants to do what would make me most unhappy in this universe and never even mention those two in the same paragraph again.

There is this awkward interview where he seems genuinely surprised about the fan's strong response, despite admitting he played with that idea in the books.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLynybVOi2I

LeCygne has already covered most of this. I'm surprised how many times people misquote that interview or interpret it as GRRM being somehow "against" SanSan. He admits he's "played with it" and just says he's surprised so many people have responded to it. I get the impression that he was convinced he had been so "subtle" with putting those hints and clues and is surprised that people have picked up on it, just like he said that "a couple of people" had correctly interpreted some "subtle and obscure" clues in his books in the 1990s (which I think is GRRM referring to R+L=J; his clues were far from subtle, but GRRM probably thinks they are). Nowadays it seems like everyone is talking about every theory and every teased relationship, but GRRM doesn't go to online forums, and the community was probably not so huge in 1990s.

And there is this old interview where he doesn't really answer any questions but I took it to mean that the Hound is attracted to Sansa although she is not attracted to him.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Hound_and_Sansa/

I didn't read that answer that way at all. It's hard to read it that way when ASOS and AFFC definitely show that she's attracted to him and looks back on their relationship in a romanticized light, imagining that he kissed her and dwelling on it (which GRRM has said will be important in the future), comparing every man to him, thinking of him suddenly every time sex or kissing is mentioned, etc.

During ACOK, it was obvious she had some very complicated feelings for him, but she wouldn't have been thinking about their relationship in a romantic/erotic light since she was still a child who has barely started/is just starting to develop an adult sexuality. (Note, however, that she was never as oblivious to not be extremely uncomfortable with Littlefinger's behavior around her, even when she was 11; Sandor didn't make her feel those sex molestor vibes.)

This is what is lacking in the show, where we don't know what Sansa is thinking. The show did get across to the viewers that he feels something for her (even if different viewers may disagree what exactly) but I don't think it gets across what how felt or feels about him. The closest it got was the look on her face the last time they saw each other in Blackwater. The show also simplified their relationship, it only showed him as her protector/helper and had a little bit of his giving his cynical worldview to her and contrasting it to her idealism, but the latter wasn't developed enough, and the show completely failed to show Sandor being vulnerable in front of Sansa and confiding in her, and Sansa showing compassion and emotional strength and comforting him (largely because of that terrible change where Sandor didn't get to tell Sansa the story of his burns).

GRRM salvaged what could have been salvaged, the scene in Blackwater is really good in the context of their show relationship; something more akin to the book version would not have worked at all considering it hadn't been set up, and show!Sandor had never been shown acting so emotionally unstable, vulnerable and violent in Sansa's presence as he does in the book. GRRM has said there was meant to be more, with him asking for a song, but it was cut in the end; in any case, it would have come out of nowhere since songs hadn't been mentioned between them before (except in that awful deleted scene - and one of the reasons that scene was bad was because the song mention comes out of the blue; the show hadn't established that Sansa liked songs about romance and chivalry, or what songs were about, or what it all meant). Even Sandor asking Sansa to look at his face was something that hadn't been established before.

And I just think it's strange that, if they were meant to end up together, HBO focused on their relationship so little since GRRM apparently had to tell the writers all the plot points of the story. Like if it were really important, I think they would have left Rory's EXCELLENT delivery of of how he got his scars instead of giving it to Petyr (which was such a weak scene and if you see Rory's you will agree his is better.)

Bryan Cogman has said that this happened because of "production reasons", whatever those were. In any case, the show has done lots of things that had nothing to do with where the storyline was going, especially in the first 3 seasons, when they only had a broad idea of how the story ends and didn't know all the details of character arcs the way they do now (GRRM told them before they started working on the season 4 scripts). Going by season 2, for instance, you'd have thought that the relationship between Arya and Tywin was going to be super important going forward, while Bran's relationship with the Reeds or Theon's relationship with Ramsay were totally unimportant.

The general impression I got from the SanSan scenes in the show is that they were trying to include them but just plain sucked at writing them (the deleted scene from S2 was awful and I think it would have screwed up things even more and completely misrepresented their relationship if it had been included; BTW, apparently it was Cogman who wrote it, which contributes to my impression that he generally isn't good in writing Sandor at all; let's say I was less than impressed with the Sandor/BwB scenes in Kissed by Fire) and generally were unsure how to write their connection without it looking extremely creepy considering Sansa's and Sophie's age at the time, and they didn't want to make Sandor look like a creep (which wasn't an issue with Littlefinger, since the audience is not supposed to like him). Which doesn't mean that you couldn't write more of those scenes without any overt romantic or sexual overtones - they could have focused on the whole 'true knight' theme and 'songs' theme and disillusionment/idealism, or have Sandor tell her the story of his family as he does in the books, but they seem to generally not care at all about themes like "true knights" and "songs" and idealism/disillusionment, preferring to focus on fights and political intrigue instead.

I guess I just don't get the impression that he is really interested in pursuing that relationship between those characters.

I get the exact opposite impression. LeCygne has covered some of it, here's a tumblr post that also rounds up the information. http://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/92340876393/hi-ive-just-started-really-getting-into-the-asoiaf

If Sandor does come back I could see it happening for the much anticipated Clegane bowl, although if Sandor is now living a religious life and partially crippled I am not sure how that will turn out for him...and I don't want anyone going in to the arena with Gregor since Oberyn :crying: But no Sansa.

I don't believe in the Cleganebowl theory at all, especially not if it's about (which is the most popular theory) Sandor as a Faith's champion. That's not happening IMO. The trial of combat is going to happen very soon, Sandor is still in no shape to fight, he's in hiding, he's still a novice, I don't see him as a "Warrior of the Faith", and I'm pretty sure Cersei is going to win her trial. The Faith is probably going to send some poor chump who's going to get slaughtered by "Robert Strong".

I'm sure Sandor has an important role to play, and that he will meet Sansa; GRRM has hinted as much, and it's set up both in the books (where he is currently very close to the Vale, where Sansa is) and in the show (where, the last time we saw him, he was actually in the Vale, geographically even closer to her). He may get to fight unGregor, but in some other situation (maybe even something to do with protecting Sansa or others).

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Dya of Oldstones Noble

Dya of Oldstones

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With all the speculation on when tWoW is coming out...some think as late as spring or summer of 2016, we may need to wait until Season 6 to see Rory again. :crying: Winter is Coming and Watchers on the Wall are both speculating on how spoilery Season 5 will be for the Sullied amongst us.



I'm guessing the focus on Sansa will be on her trip down from the Eyrie to Gates of the Moon. Sophie did tease that she's looking forward to Sansa developing into early adulthood in a recent interview. If that's the case, perhaps the show's directors want to establish more of Sansa's maturity before Sandor comes back into her life.



Shoutouts to Annara Snow and Le Cygne for all the digging around and background info. :bowdown:



ETA: I was an early Cleganebowl enthusiast, but not any more.


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Annara Snow Council Member

Annara Snow

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With all the speculation on when tWoW is coming out...some think as late as spring or summer of 2016, we may need to wait until Season 6 to see Rory again. :crying: Winter is Coming and Watchers on the Wall are both speculating on how spoilery Season 5 will be for the Sullied amongst us.

I'm guessing the focus on Sansa will be on her trip down from the Eyrie to Gates of the Moon. Sophie did tease that she's looking forward to Sansa developing into early adulthood in a recent interview. If that's the case, perhaps the show's directors want to establish more of Sansa's maturity before Sandor comes back into her life.

Shoutouts to Annara Snow and Le Cygne for all the digging around and background info. :bowdown:

ETA: I was an early Cleganebowl enthusiast, but not any more.

I think that, if we see Sandor in season 5 at all, it will only be a little cameo reveal late in the season. If he is to be a bigger part of season 6, it would be hard to hide that information from the public, so a season 5 reveal would be a good idea.

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  • 4 weeks later...
SixPence Freerider

SixPence

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This pretty much sums up my feelings for Sandor after watching the show.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFgAuVYTZ7M



I'm pretty sure he's dead after that scene, but his love for chicken will live on forever. If we do get to see the C-Bowl (Don't google this if you only watch the show!!!!) at some point I have my doubts as to how lively it will be...


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Annara Snow Council Member

Annara Snow

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This pretty much sums up my feelings for Sandor after watching the show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFgAuVYTZ7M

I'm pretty sure he's dead after that scene, but his love for chicken will live on forever. If we do get to see the C-Bowl (Don't google this if you only watch the show!!!!) at some point I have my doubts as to how lively it will be...

Are you Unsullied?

It's funny to watch the completely different reactions of the Sullied and the Unsullied to Sandor's last scene in The Children.

The Unsullied: "NOOOO! He is dead now, isn't he? I mean, I know we didn't see the body, but... I'm just trying to cling to the hope... But I know he's realistically dead." :bawl:

The Sullied before seeing The Children: "I'm just afraid the show will kill him for real. That would mean he doesn't come back to do anything important in the future books. If we see him actually die or see his dead body... well, that's it. :( "

The Sullied after seeing The Children: "Oh well, just as I thought, he's not really dead and he'll come back. :) "

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Annara Snow Council Member

Annara Snow

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Really funny on that video and others how the burn scars on Sandor's face keep switching sides.

Even among the Unsullied, I have a few friends who speculated about finding a maester hiding behind the rock. However, still no Rory sightings from any of the set locations.

Even if he's in season 5, they would be doing their best to hide it. He certainly wouldn't be seen in open locations. And he probably wouldn't need to be in open locations anyway, just in Belfast studios.

If he's in season 6 without having a shorter appearance in season 5 to reveal his status/wherabouts, it will also be hush-hush.

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Dya of Oldstones Noble

Dya of Oldstones

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Even if he's in season 5, they would be doing their best to hide it. He certainly wouldn't be seen in open locations. And he probably wouldn't need to be in open locations anyway, just in Belfast studios.

If he's in season 6 without having a shorter appearance in season 5 to reveal his status/wherabouts, it will also be hush-hush.

Quite true, because of the cliffhangers even for the Sullied. Maybe not so much of an issue with Season 6 if TWOW is out by then, but I've given up trying to keep up with storylines of book vs. show.

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Joseph Nobles Hedge Knight

Joseph Nobles

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The show took great care to let us know just how close we were to the Bloody Gate all during the Brienne/Arya/Hound/Pod scenes. Brienne and Pod woke up about 20 miles away. The Hound tells Arya they're about 10 miles away.



Of course there's a maester behind the rock. :D And he will scurry over to find out what all that ruckus was.


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