Kudos to Rory McCann (possible book spoilers)

[RavenKing23]

I moreso usually get a.........I don't want to talk about it vibe and the deeper meaning being......he doesn't want to have to be a cursed kinslayer. Part of him wants that, but part of him wants to be the good guy, and good guys shouldn't have to kinslayers. I think it's a complexity. He almost needs permission to do the right thing as far as Gregor is concerned, I think. He talks a hard game, but deep down, there are many layers to the issues.

The good guy? Sandor Clegane is a monster, for sure not the same caliber as his brother, Joffrey, Euron or Ramsey but a monster all the same. Kinslayer wouldn't bother him, thats his life's ambition.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

The good guy? Sandor Clegane is a monster, for sure not the same caliber as his brother, Joffrey, Euron or Ramsey but a monster all the same. Kinslayer wouldn't bother him, thats his life's ambition.

Yeah, that Sandor, he's a monster just a smidge under the level of his brother? I said he wanted to be a good guy, not that he specifically was.....after all, there aren't many clear cut good guys in this story. But, I'm not sure what type of answer I could give to someone who doesn't see much difference between Sandor in comparison to Joffrey, Euron, Ramsey, and of course, that big brother he of his.

[RavenKing23]

Yeah, that Sandor, he's a monster just a smidge under the level of his brother? I said he wanted to be a good guy, not that he specifically was.....after all, there aren't many clear cut good guys in this story. But, I'm not sure what type of answer I could give to someone who doesn't see much difference between Sandor in comparison to Joffrey, Euron, Ramsey, and of course, that big brother he of his.

What? I never said he was a smidge under those characters. What Im saying is that Sandor, while not the torturing, raping, pillaging bastard as the true monsters in the story, he is by no means a good or even morally ambiguous man. He's not like Jaime wanting to redeem himself, he was very honest with himself about who and what he was, ie that killer speech he gave to Sansa. The man is a monster, killing is his only talent. Not as black-souled as Gregor, Joffrey, Ramsey, or Euron but still closer to black than grey

[rmholt]

I disagree he's a monster.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

What? I never said he was a smidge under those characters. What Im saying is that Sandor, while not the torturing, raping, pillaging bastard as the true monsters in the story, he is by no means a good or even morally ambiguous man. He's not like Jaime wanting to redeem himself, he was very honest with himself about who and what he was, ie that killer speech he gave to Sansa. The man is a monster, killing is his only talent. Not as black-souled as Gregor, Joffrey, Ramsey, or Euron but still closer to black than grey

I never said he WAS a good guy either, but okay, you didn't like my paraphrasing of your words, fine. I couldn't disagree with you more strongly, I don't think Sandor is a monster and I don't think his killer speech is the total of his character, frankly, I think it's quite far from who he really is. It's think it's much more complex than you are presenting it, I think Sandor's words cover who he really is. The one horrible act I can name for sure on his books is Mycha, and while, technically, he was in the right.........obeying the orders of the Crown Prince and caught in the Westerosi system of justice, I think he himself feels terrible for it, and the Mycah business, along with Sansa and the ever revealing nature of Joffrey himself, is what helped Sandor break free, that and the wildfire. Without all the events and interactions with Sansa previous to the Blackwater.......I doubt he'd have even had the courage to run, LOL Honestly, I have said about all I feel like saying on the subject, we are going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not interested in both of us overstating our views anyway. I think there's much more to him than his killer speech, and I guess, you don't. Agree to disagree, after all, luckily....this is about fictional characters anyway.

[Le Cygne]

You are right, Lady Fevre Dream.

The show messed it up by not showing the first scene, but there's juxtaposition in the books, he tells Sansa about Gregor, and she says Gregor is no true knight, then the next day, Sandor is a true knight rescuing Loras. That's when Ned observes that he's not trying to kill his brother - he's not taking unfair advantage of his helm being gone, he could have killed him then and there.

Later, Beric says something similar. And the Elder Brother, too. Even Jaime doesn't think Sandor committed the atrocities. He was playing with the knight toy when Gregor burned him, he was like a male version of Sansa, that's why they were drawn to each other, he even asked her to sing Florian and Jonquil before he left. He wanted to be the knight for her, he was telling her she was right.

And he says this, and this is about her, and what they did to her, but it's also about him. They're all afraid of him, that's the Hound persona, that he put on so no one would hurt him again. And he saw the same thing happening to Sansa, look at the rescue scene, that look he gives Joffrey when he's messing with Sansa. And for once, he gets to kill the ones who are hurting her.

This is a pretty cool I love you line, but this is also his life story, basically:

"I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them."

Here's the Beric line, too:

"That gold was all he had left, it seems to me."

"Bloody hell," said Watty the Miller. "He'll come murder us in our sleep for sure, then."

"No." Lord Beric had sheathed his sword. "Sandor Clegane would kill us all gladly, but not in our sleep."

[JonCon's Red Beard]

What? I never said he was a smidge under those characters. What Im saying is that Sandor, while not the torturing, raping, pillaging bastard as the true monsters in the story, he is by no means a good or even morally ambiguous man. He's not like Jaime wanting to redeem himself, he was very honest with himself about who and what he was, ie that killer speech he gave to Sansa. The man is a monster, killing is his only talent. Not as black-souled as Gregor, Joffrey, Ramsey, or Euron but still closer to black than grey

There is one truth to the Hound. He HAS to kill. He's under the commands of the King, and he will do some ambiguous moves if he's asked to, even if those murdered are good people. And that's not different from Sansa's own father. We saw the prologue of aGoT. We know the guy from the Wall had real reasons to escape and being afraid, yet, Ned has to do his job. And we've also seen how Aerys' KG had to stand there and say nothing about Aerys' killing Brandon and Rickard.

The Hound' job isn't to fight tourneys or to kill the evil villain. He's there to execute whoever the King needs dead, and to defend Joffrey even if he needs to kill someone who isn't a bad person (like Mycah). There are no songs for men like the Hound, but that doesn't make him a bad person either.

[Woman of War]

There is one truth to the Hound. He HAS to kill.

Why does he HAVE to kill? He could have disappeared anytime and taken another job, if as sellsword or as farmer. But he was in no way forced to stay in Lannister service.

He's under the commands of the King

as long as he decides to stay so, he is no slave but a nobleman.

and he will do some ambiguous moves if he's asked to, even if those murdered are good people. And that's not different from Sansa's own father. We saw the prologue of aGoT. We know the guy from the Wall had real reasons to escape and being afraid, yet, Ned has to do his job. And we've also seen how Aerys' KG had to stand there and say nothing about Aerys' killing Brandon and Rickard.

The Hound' job isn't to fight tourneys or to kill the evil villain. He's there to execute whoever the King needs dead, and to defend Joffrey even if he needs to kill someone who isn't a bad person (like Mycah). There are no songs for men like the Hound, but that doesn't make him a bad person either.

Sandor is a fascinating character invention by Martin but a person who kills because he is ordered to is morally even more evil than those who do it out of free will imo.

Anything else is the Eichmann excuse, delegating the responsibility for someone's own morality to a superior institution, Hitler or some king, who gives the orders. The height of hypocrisy if used as excuse. Except that Sandor himself at some point finished with that hypocrisy. But he continued to be aware until he maybe or not died that he is, not was, evil. This is exactly the fascinating point: all other evil guys and girls are convinced that they themselves are right, that the others are wrong and they themselves only are forced to react. And Sandor is fully aware that he is the bad guy, no hypocrisy here. That makes him special among the bad guys and at some point, at least when he deserted, different from Eichmann. Why "excuse" him, as if he were an idiot? This would make his character boring, just another brainless unimportant Lannister guardsman.

Eddard's story, contrary to those who mindlessly follow orders, is precisely about taking responsibility for his own deeds.

[rmholt]

So...the people manning drones are monsters?

[Woman of War]

So...the people manning drones are monsters?

Aren't drones unmanned?

[Lady Fevre Dream]

So, wow, it still is a Rory appreciation thread, huh?

[PetitOiseau]

Been lurking for a while. Reading this thread for days. I agree with some posters and disagree with others (Godwin's Law strikes again...). I feel that this thread is getting off course so there you go, my first post in over a year. Here's some Rory love:

Rory was awesome throughout the season and was stellar in the finale. I'll be honest ...in the first two seasons I didn't really like Rory as Sandor. His age aside, I honestly thought he wasn't a really good actor, but how wrong was I!? He's been really good in season 3 and great in season 4, to end stellar in the finale. So kudos kudos kudos x10000000000... to Rory! His "dying" scene made me cry, which is a really rare thing. I can't wait to see the Gravedigger in seasons to come.

[rmholt]

Aren't drones unmanned?

Someone is guiding them as I'm sure you know. Don't address the point if you can change the subject.

[Woman of War]

Someone is guiding them as I'm sure you know. Don't address the point if you can change the subject.

I think bringing drones into a thread about Rory McCann as actor or Sandor as character is the biggest change of subject imaginable. :D. So your answer here was simply, sorry, ridiculous.

We maybe should not continue this pointless debate about present day weapons.

[1234567]

Someone is guiding them as I'm sure you know. Don't address the point if you can change the subject.

She already invoked Godwin's Law, which means you won the point I think.

[Woman of War]

@rapsie: I "invoked Godwin's Law" before the drones came into the debate, have you realized it? The drones as, what?, Reagan's Law, came later.

Well, I am quite sure that I have won since Sandor is meant by Martin to be torn and destroyed by knownig about his own hypocrisy and his despise for hypocrisy, that self hatred is part of his character.

But if you feel better, mholt: YESYESYES you have WON and will sleep wonderfully in light of your own perfection and my utter incompetence. Enjoy, honestly I do not care since I am here for fun.

Back to topic

@ PetitOiseau

Is the Elder Brother needed for the story? There is a thread about who he might be, I so far have not read everything. Otherwise I'd think Sandor may survive, if he does, with that farmer and his daughter. Actually I found these two actors, the girl and the father, great too. Bringing them back could be interesting.

[It's Not That Littlefinger]

I thought it was great. loved the mention of sansa. sansan survives!!!

I really think they would have killed him off if he has no further purpose. that is what they tend to do. i know it was so arya could have her dark moment, but I thought they were going to give the hound a cool death, but they didn't. and they made a point of focusing on the mountain... :) i really hope this duel happend

[Le Cygne]

I never thought they were going to kill him, he's in the middle of an unresolved storyline with her they've been telling from the start.

But I was dying for a hint about this (crow and "river" suggesting Brynden Rivers):

Arya glanced over her shoulder, but there was nothing behind them but a crow flitting from tree to tree. The only sound was the river.

I always thought this had something to do with his timely meeting with a "maester behind a rock" type.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Why does he HAVE to kill? He could have disappeared anytime and taken another job, if as sellsword or as farmer. But he was in no way forced to stay in Lannister service.

Even as a farmer we would need to kill someone. A thief, an intruder, a broken man trying to rob him. Every man in Westeros needs to kill not due to heroism or to defeat the villain but to survive, or because it's his obligation. Either way, killing is an important part of their lives and there is anything heroic about that.

The problem Sandor has with Sansa is that she had a very black/white ideas about what a knight is. That the knight is the "good guy" and he's always right. For example, her father had to kill Arthur Dayne, whose intentions (along with Whent and Hightower) were probably as good as his own.

[Le Cygne]

I feel that this thread is getting off course so there you go, my first post in over a year.

I remember you, we were on a thread where the same thing was going on. Poor Sandor.