Connecting the 3 Dragon Heads - Examining Unique Similarities

[Greymoon]

snip

But I do not draw these conclusions because from 10 points; there is more than half that I find to be a matter of interpretation... I've already elaborated on that too, I'm not sure what more I can say to explain that to me these three are not uniquely connected, not in the degree the OP states.

I have to ask...why do you want Tyrion to be a secret Targ? if he isn't; he can't be a dragon rider; that's all. If you like I, believe that the dragon riders are not the ultimate saviors/heroes in this story; not even the most important characters -- Tyrion not riding a dragon, and not being Aerys's son changes nothing of his importance and worth -- on the contrary, I dare say.

Have a look at the Heresy threads; the Long Night, the prophecies all that has been discussed with the general consensus that we do not know much at all about WW, about the Children, and their motivation; or even that they are all evil...:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/98456-the-heretics-guide-to-heresy/

Some believe that we are not going to see a battle of "fire" against "ice," the whole point being to find a balance.... in the HotU Dany is told to "drink from a cup of ice; drink from a cup of fire" Rhaegar says, "his is the song of ice and fire"

At this one:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/113243-hero-archetypes-its-one-story-the-oldest-light-versus-dark/

Apple Martini had a thread about the three headed dragon and how it became a sigil of House Targaryen after the conquest; no more but 300 years ago. By all accounts the AAR prophecy is much older than that. Similarly, while we are told that the PtwP comes from Rhaella and Aerys's line; we do not know that PtwP = AAR.... interesting also is the theory postulated that the three headed dragon is a metaphorical dragon = one person with three facets; that person being a "dragon" >> a Targaryen : http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61739-issue-with-the-three-heads-of-the-dragon/

[pobeb]

from 10 points; there is more than half that I find to be a matter of interpretation...

I'm trying to figure out a way to help you look at this more objectively. Can we try something out? You don't have to agree or commit to my theory whatsoever, but for the sake of the experiment, I implore you to help me by participating in an open minded way.

Ok. So, I'm going to write up a list of questions. I need your response to be as objective as possible, so I'll form my questions in a way which I only need a Yes or No answer. Remember, the purpose of this exercise is to look at my list objectively, therefore you don't need to elaborate on why you do or don't agree. Please just respond with just a yes or no:

Yes or No:

1) Do Dany, Jon, and Tyrion each come from a mother who died in childbirth?

2) Are Dany, Jon, and Tyrion each a 3rd child to a parent who only has 3 children?

3) Are Dany, Jon, and Tyrion are each from the sibling paradigm Male/Male/Female, and if so, is this paradigm present in their own grouping?

4) Have Dany, Jon, and Tyrion ever felt like an outcast at one point?

5) Despite their intentions, have Dany, Jon, and Tyrion ever defended a group of people?

6) Have Dany, Jon, and Tyrion each killed a man who both treated them poorly and, at one point, held a position of power?

7) Have Dany, Jon, and Tyrion each held a position of power themselves?

8) Have Dany, Jon, and Tyrion each had a lover who died?

9) Have Dany, Jon, and Tyrion each had an attempt made on their lives?

10) Have Dany, Jon, and Tyrion each been betrayed?

So, what do you think? Are "more than half" of these a Yes or No?

I've already elaborated on that too, I'm not sure what more I can say to explain that to me these three are not uniquely connected, not in the degree the OP states.

This is something else I want you to try to see objectively:

Let's say the entire cast of characters are all represented by different variables. In this case, I apply my variables as such:

A = Dany

B = Jon

C = Tyrion

So, then I give you a list in which all variables meet a particular criteria. The list looks as such

1) A+B+C = True

2) A+B+C = True

3) A+B+C = True

4) A+B+C = True

And so on, and so forth. Now, if the rest of the variables (other than A, B, or C) represent the rest of the cast, your argument looks like this:

1) A+F+J = True

2) B+P+O = True

3) C+R+E = True

4) A+C+Q = True

Is this helping you understand my argument any better? My list of 3 certainly meets the criteria which I clearly defined in the OP. The examples you give, however, do not meet this criteria. And if the questionnaire above has helped you at all, then you're starting to see this exact point.

[Lady Flandrensis]

:bowdown: Well done.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I enjoy reading this thread it's very thought provoking. While I definitely see the connections you are making I have a couple questions about the A+J=T

I don't believe that Aerys' lust for Joanna was mentioned for no reason at all. I think there is something there even if it's only that he raped her (I don't say 'only' meaning rape isn't a big deal I say only meaning it didn't produce any children.)

There may be a very obvious answer for the question I'm getting ready to ask so forgive me if I'm being dense but: Why is it always A+J=T? Why not A+J=J&C? Or even A+J=J,C,&T? (Maybe they are the 3 heads all on their own?) Haha just kidding ;)

Maybe the time line doesn't add up or something but it makes more sense to me that Aerys would've taken his liberties with Joanna earlier rather than later & Jaime & Cersei act more Targ like IMO. The incest & the insanity, at least in Cersei.

Also as I've stated before I think it would be quite an ironic twist of fate that ONLY Tyrion was Tywin's & that his golden children were actually fathered by a man he despised.

Undoubtedly now that Tywin is dead it kind of takes some of the greatness out of that because it's only great if Tywin gets to learn that Tyrion is in fact his son but that Jaime & Cersei are not.

ETA: I really want Tyrion to be a dragon rider though. Is it explicitly stated that the dragon riders must be Targs? Because I was almost positive GRRM said the dragon riders DID NOT have to be Targs. If so Tyrion can still be a dragon rider with out Targ blood

[UnmaskedLurker]

I enjoy reading this thread it's very thought provoking. While I definitely see the connections you are making I have a couple questions about the A+J=T

I don't believe that Aerys' lust for Joanna was mentioned for no reason at all. I think there is something there even if it's only that he raped her (I don't say 'only' meaning rape isn't a big deal I say only meaning it didn't produce any children.)

There may be a very obvious answer for the question I'm getting ready to ask so forgive me if I'm being dense but: Why is it always A+J=T? Why not A+J=J&C? Or even A+J=J,C,&T? (Maybe they are the 3 heads all on their own?) Haha just kidding ;)

Maybe the time line doesn't add up or something but it makes more sense to me that Aerys would've taken his liberties with Joanna earlier rather than later & Jaime & Cersei act more Targ like IMO. The incest & the insanity, at least in Cersei.

Also as I've stated before I think it would be quite an ironic twist of fate that ONLY Tyrion was Tywin's & that his golden children were actually fathered by a man he despised.

Undoubtedly now that Tywin is dead it kind of takes some of the greatness out of that because it's only great if Tywin gets to learn that Tyrion is in fact his son but that Jaime & Cersei are not.

ETA: I really want Tyrion to be a dragon rider though. Is it explicitly stated that the dragon riders must be Targs? Because I was almost positive GRRM said the dragon riders DID NOT have to be Targs. If so Tyrion can still be a dragon rider with out Targ blood

I am not sure whether it makes more sense for the rape to be earlier or later. We have almost no information after the wedding of Tywin and Joanna regarding when Aerys would have had an opportunity. The point is which relationship is necessary or useful for the plot. As you point out, with Tywin dead, there is really nothing in the plot to be moved by C&J being the children of Aerys (and by the way, you are definitely NOT the first person to suggest this possibility). While it is not 100% verified that Targ blood is needed to ride a dragon, there are no confirmed riders who were definitely not Targ (apparently, there is a character Nettles who is not confirmed one way or the other who developed a relationship and became a rider of a dragon by feeding the dragon sheep). But when GRRM says that being a Targ is not necessary, it could be a word game because a Targ bastard has Targ blood but is technically not a Targaryen (e.g., a Blackfyre may be a "dragon" but is not a Targaryen, even though of Targ ancestry). The real point is that one of the prophesies is that the dragon must have three heads. That prophesy seems best understood as three people of Targ ancestry coming together in battle will be necessary for the battle to be won. If that interpretation is correct (and admittedly, it might not be), then Tyrion is basically our best candidate for the third head (as (f)Aegon seems destined to die in DoD 2.0). Who else could have Targ blood who might come together with Jon and Dany?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I am not sure whether it makes more sense for the rape to be earlier or later. We have almost no information after the wedding of Tywin and Joanna regarding when Aerys would have had an opportunity. The point is which relationship is necessary or useful for the plot. As you point out, with Tywin dead, there is really nothing in the plot to be moved by C&J being the children of Aerys (and by the way, you are definitely NOT the first person to suggest this possibility). While it is not 100% verified that Targ blood is needed to ride a dragon, there are no confirmed riders who were definitely not Targ (apparently, there is a character Nettles who is not confirmed one way or the other who developed a relationship and became a rider of a dragon by feeding the dragon sheep). But when GRRM says that being a Targ is not necessary, it could be a word game because a Targ bastard has Targ blood but is technically not a Targaryen (e.g., a Blackfyre may be a "dragon" but is not a Targaryen, even though of Targ ancestry). The real point is that one of the prophesies is that the dragon must have three heads. That prophesy seems best understood as three people of Targ ancestry coming together in battle will be necessary for the battle to be won. If that interpretation is correct (and admittedly, it might not be), then Tyrion is basically our best candidate for the third head (as (f)Aegon seems destined to die in DoD 2.0). Who else could have Targ blood who might come together with Jon and Dany?

Gotcha. I guess it made more sense to me for the rape to be earlier rather than later because it is Tywin & Joanna's wedding night that Aerys is lusting after her. This is weak I know and most certainly not proof of anything just explaining my thought process.

I do agree it makes sense for the 3 heads to be 3 Targs & there isn't another character that fits the way Tyrion does.

There is too much talk of Tyrion & dragons for him to NOT be a rider IMO.

I just don't want a bunch of secret Targs coming out of the woodwork though you know? If Tyrion is a secret Targ then I would rather Jon not be & vice versa. Of course this is just my personal preference and obviously has no bearing on what will happen in the books.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I just don't want a bunch of secret Targs coming out of the woodwork though you know? If Tyrion is a secret Targ then I would rather Jon not be & vice versa. Of course this is just my personal preference and obviously has no bearing on what will happen in the books.

The problem with this preference is that if three heads means three Targs--and we only have one known Targ (Dany), then there has to be two hidden Targs. I know you are acknowledging it is only your preference and not a prediction, but GRRM has really given everyone a huge clue that there has to be two unacknowledged Targs because the dragon has three heads (and there are three dragons). Aegon, of course, is really (f)Aegon and is a "head"-fake (sorry for the pun) in terms of who could be one of the heads.

[Legendary]

GRRM has stated that the three heads do not have to be Targaryens. That means that the three dragon riders do not have to be Targaryens.

[Mithras]

GRRM has stated that the three heads do not have to be Targaryens. That means that the three dragon riders do not have to be Targaryens.

"Three heads of the dragon = Three dragon riders" is an assumption. Dany thinks like that but GRRM does not explain such things before it actually happens.

[jon rhaegar stark]

"Three heads of the dragon = Three dragon riders" is an assumption. Dany thinks like that but GRRM does not explain such things before it actually happens.

Aemon says he must be go to her because the dragon has three heads...and that he cant be a head because he old and fragile ...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

GRRM has stated that the three heads do not have to be Targaryens. That means that the three dragon riders do not have to be Targaryens.

I remembered that when I read this yesterday:

These lands belonged to Lord Darry then, and his lordship was fiercely loyal to the king. The sight of the black iron dragon made him wroth, so he cut down the post, hacked the sign into pieces, and cast them into the river. One of the dragon's heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust.

Many consider the rusty dragon being a sign of Aegon coming as a Targaryen being actually a Blackfyre. And here is also called a "dragon's head". Aegon might be one of the heads, not being a Targaryen by name but by blood. GRRM is THAT tricky-

[pobeb]

There may be a very obvious answer for the question I'm getting ready to ask so forgive me if I'm being dense but: Why is it always A+J=T? Why not A+J=J&C? Or even A+J=J,C,&T? (Maybe they are the 3 heads all on their own?) Haha just kidding ;)

I'm sure I'll catch grief for this, but I think all 3 Lannister children are Aerys'. I've been cooking up a theory about them on the side. Off the top of my head, I have:

- Incest

- Cersei's love of wildfire

- the parallels in character between Cersei/Viserys, Jaime/Rhaegar, and Tyrion/Dany

- the fact that Jaime and Cersei have children fitting the aforementioned sibling paradigm: M/M/F - Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella

- Aerys being a rapist

No where near as complete a list as it could be. Just some thoughts.

[pobeb]

I wanna try a formula which I think you guys will find interesting.

So, let's pretend that what I theorize is true, and Dany is the daughter of Bonifer and Rhaella, Tyrion is the son of Aerys and Joanna, and Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Since each child would be half-targ and half-something else, let's treat the children as fractions; this I mean to illustrate in these terms:

Hasty Lannister Stark

--------- ---------- ---------

Targ Targ Targ

I hope that shows up right for everyone. In any event, what happens when we add them all up? Remember, in order to add fractions, the denominators must be the same.

Hasty Lannister Stark HLS

--------- + ---------- + --------- = ----------

Targ Targ Targ Targ

3 heads (different houses) of the dragon (Targaryen)

[jon rhaegar stark]

I wanna try a formula which I think you guys will find interesting.

So, let's pretend that what I theorize is true, and Dany is the daughter of Bonifer and Rhaella, Tyrion is the son of Aerys and Joanna, and Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Since each child would be half-targ and half-something else, let's treat the children as fractions; this I mean to illustrate in these terms:

Hasty Lannister Stark

--------- ---------- ---------

Targ Targ Targ

I hope that shows up right for everyone. In any event, what happens when we add them all up? Remember, in order to add fractions, the denominators must be the same.

Hasty Lannister Stark HLS

--------- + ---------- + --------- = ----------

Targ Targ Targ Targ

3 heads (different houses) of the dragon (Targaryen)

you know i would like to think about this it if all them are anything of some great houses..we have four houses out of which three houses has been royal houses at a point of time...but Hasty what really we have of that house

and i still dont know how it is bonifer hasty that Ser barristan mentioned because i dont see him mention any name ..so did the event of that tourney was mentioned before in the books because i want to know how you come up with that name

[Greymoon]

I feel that I must ask again... why do you think that three dragon riders = three saviors? pobeb, we're talking in circle, and that's why lol. I will not do this exercise the way you instructed, because if you've read my posts, you should know by now where I stand. Sometimes it is the questions I do not find relevant, or objective; other times it is the answer I find unsatisfying.

In any case, my answering Yes or No, serves no purpose at all. Also, if Jaime and Cersei are Aerys's children....the connections between Jon and Jaime become even greater than that between Jon and Tyrion; and you're adding some more connections between Dany and Cersei as well...

I'm trying to figure out a way to help you look at this more objectively. Can we try something out? You don't have to agree or commit to my theory whatsoever, but for the sake of the experiment, I implore you to help me by participating in an open minded way.

Ok. So, I'm going to write up a list of questions. I need your response to be as objective as possible, so I'll form my questions in a way which I only need a Yes or No answer. Remember, the purpose of this exercise is to look at my list objectively, therefore you don't need to elaborate on why you do or don't agree. Please just respond with just a yes or no:

Yes or No:

1) Do Dany, Jon, and Tyrion each come from a mother who died in childbirth?

YES. And that right there is their main connection.

2) Are Dany, Jon, and Tyrion each a 3rd child to a parent who only has 3 children?

YES, BUT as I've stated before, to me this question works better if Tyrion is Tywin's son, allowing one to argue from the perspective of three fathers: Rhaegar, Tywin, Aerys. This counterbalances the three mothers from above Lyanna, Joanna, Rhaella.

3) Are Dany, Jon, and Tyrion are each from the sibling paradigm Male/Male/Female, and if so, is this paradigm present in their own grouping?

NO? Neither Tyrion, nor Jaime, nor Dany are if Aerys fathered them all. (Rhaegar + Cersei + Jaime + Tyrion + Dany). You can see them only as Joanna's, Rhaella's and Rhaegar's children, but I don't think it makes much sense, since you are speaking of "sibling paradigm" and since you are counting Aegon and Rhaenys, Jon's half-siblings; yet you are not counting Tyrion (plus Cersei and Jaime) as Dany's. That's the reason I find this debatable. It is not objective. And why is it relevant to the characters?

4) Have Dany, Jon, and Tyrion ever felt like an outcast at one point?

Yes, BUT Jaime Kingslayer and Cersei "The whole world is plotting my demise" Lannister, have too.

5) Despite their intentions, have Dany, Jon, and Tyrion ever defended a group of people?

Yes, BUT Jaime did too. So did most people who ever fought in a war -- not a relevant connection imo.

6) Have Dany, Jon, and Tyrion each killed a man who both treated them poorly and, at one point, held a position of power?

Yes, BUT Jaime did too. Or does Mad King Aerys not count?... and Robert Baratheon for Cersei.

7) Have Dany, Jon, and Tyrion each held a position of power themselves?

Yes, BUT Jaime did too; Cersei did as well as Queen Regent.

8) Have Dany, Jon, and Tyrion each had a lover who died?

Yes, BUT I'll ask again, what do you make of Tysha? Tysha is the one Tyrion loved, not Shae. Hence, she seems the better fit when compared to Drogo and Ygritte because she not Shae has the greater emotional impact on Tyrion's character development (where do whores go?). And Tysha is not dead as far as we know....also, Cersei will probably be dead soon enough. That's a + one for Jaime/Jon....

9) Have Dany, Jon, and Tyrion each had an attempt made on their lives?

Yes, BUT as I said, Dany had more than one attempt made on her life. Also, you are speaking about different events for Dany and Tyrion; naming the same for Jon (the Ides of Marsh) in the next question...(the answer seems redundant):

10) Have Dany, Jon, and Tyrion each been betrayed?

Yes, BUT I'll say again, the whole betrayal of MMD is not as clear cut as it appears. For one, she warned Drogo and Dany multiple times. Drogo did not follow her instructions, Dany did not heed her warning concerning blood magic. MMD said it would not be pretty; she said there was a price to pay. Also, I'm pretty much certain that MMD hatched the dragons, not Dany -- hence it seems possible that MMD was acting with a greater goal in mind; thus throwing the whole question of betrayal up in the air. MMD was a student of Marwyn; she spent some time in Asshai. Who else comes from Asshai? Mel. What is rumored to be found in Asshai? Knowledge of Dragonlore.

Also, is Shae the greater betrayal for Tyrion? Or is it Tywin/Jaime about Tysha?

So, what do you think? Are "more than half" of these a Yes or No?

More than half as you can observe for yourself are Yes, BUT.

This is something else I want you to try to see objectively:

Let's say the entire cast of characters are all represented by different variables. In this case, I apply my variables as such:

A = Dany

B = Jon

C = Tyrion

So, then I give you a list in which all variables meet a particular criteria. The list looks as such

1) A+B+C = True

2) A+B+C = True

3) A+B+C = True

4) A+B+C = True

And so on, and so forth. Now, if the rest of the variables (other than A, B, or C) represent the rest of the cast, your argument looks like this:

1) A+F+J = True

2) B+P+O = True

3) C+R+E = True

4) A+C+Q = True

It does not, I've made my point with Unmaskedlurker. Should I count how often Jaime appears in that list? He has individually more in common with Jon than Tyrion or Dany do (in views of my objections. Not according to the op, granted.). Why should this connection be ignored when by all appearances, it seems greater than Jon's connection to Tyrion?

Is this helping you understand my argument any better? My list of 3 certainly meets the criteria which I clearly defined in the OP. The examples you give, however, do not meet this criteria. And if the questionnaire above has helped you at all, then you're starting to see this exact point.

I do understand your point. Also, I'm repeating myself but I actually agree that they are connected. Just not to the degree the OP says. And I do not agree that all three = the three dragon riders. The main objection being Tyrion thrown into the lot... There's plenty of other candidates... to me, if Jon is one, it makes sense that he gets Viserion....and this sort of goes against the Tyrion theory, since it is generally pointed toward that bit of foreshadowing with the white cyvasse piece to say Viserion will be Tyrion's... I've interpreted that passage differently.

It also makes sense to me, that Rhaegal the "green" dragon is ridden by Dany's antagonist, since she has a strong bond to Drogon the "black" dragon. I agree with JonCon's Red Beard's observation about the rusty dragon; and belong to that category of people who believe that fAegon is a Blackfyre....but will also become a dragon rider... He has the "blood" if not the name. Just like Jon.

I'm sure I'll catch grief for this, but I think all 3 Lannister children are Aerys'. I've been cooking up a theory about them on the side. Off the top of my head, I have:

- Incest

- Cersei's love of wildfire

- the parallels in character between Cersei/Viserys, Jaime/Rhaegar, and Tyrion/Dany

- the fact that Jaime and Cersei have children fitting the aforementioned sibling paradigm: M/M/F - Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella

- Aerys being a rapist

What does that say? That he raped Joanna? Or are you saying that Jaime is a rapist as well, so that's one thing they have in common? Jaime isn't.... And Aerys was still sane when Tywin/Joanna married, he was a promising youth according to Ser Barristan, that should not be forgotten.

No where near as complete a list as it could be. Just some thoughts.

So we are sort of agreeing on one point then, the connections are not so unique, and Cersei and Jaime fit somewhere in there too... Don't you find it a bit odd that there'd be so many hidden Targaryen's though? From a story telling perspective it seem redundant... isn't the logical conclusion that GRRM is trying to tell us something else? I mean, it's a bit like the case of Mance and Rhaegar parallels, yeah? Mance is not Rhaegar; Rhaegar is dead... Gerold Dayne is not Aegon, either. Or Viserys. And yes, Jaime is sort of a stand-in for Rhaegar too, Cersei compares them (+ Aurane Waters); and Jon does that indirectly at the feast in Winterfell.

Also, I've had this thought: If Tyrion is anyone's bastard...why not Lewyn Martell's? As I've said a few post backs; it strikes me as stranger that Tyrion has strands of black hair and one black eye. Cersei looks like Joanna, apparently (Jaime's dream) Joanna had golden hair and green eyes. Tywin has golden hair and green eyes. So do Cersei and Jaime....

...Aerys had silver hair and violet eyes... how could Joanna + Aerys have Tyrion, who has one black eye and strands of black hair? In real world, green like blue are recessive traits...blond hair is that as well.... so....how to explain Tyrion's coloring? ...

There's one big con for L+J, namely the fact that Arianne Martell implies that Lewyn's paramour is still alive, to this day... I'll play the devil's advocate here, and say it could well be another case of mistaken identity; like for Jon's mother...(Ashara, Wylla, the fisherman's daughter); or the man who dishonored Ashara Dayne....(Ned? Brandon? someone else? etc)... Let us look at other facts though, yes?

1) Oberyn Martell's daughter Tyene has blond hair and blue eyes.

2) Aegon Targaryen, Elia's son, was said to have silver hair.

Hence, Martell looks do not always trump fair looks; blond hair/light eyes.

1) Joanna Lannister was a friend of Doran's mother; the ruling Princess of Dorne

2) Joanna and the ruling princess of Dorne, wanted Jaime to marry Elia, and Cersei to marry Oberyn.

3) Prince Lewyn Martell, a KG at the red keep, was the Princess of Dorne's younger brother.

4) Prince Lewyn had a paramour, his KG brothers knew and kept the secret.

5) the paramour was said to have been a "rare" beauty. Joanna, if Cersei's looks are anything to go by, would seem to fit the bill.

6) Joanna was a companion of Rhaella Targaryen, thus she spent some time at court; where Prince Lewyn was as well.

Not convinced? I'm not either -- mainly because of Arianne's apparent certainty that the woman is still alive. But it's worth considering. The main point being, IF Aerys is Tyrion's father where does his black hair/black eye come from? I know the same can be asked about Tywin; but I'm just pointing out that it seems a greater mystery :)

.....

A side note, too. Greyscale is a manifestation we are told of Garin's curse (Tyrion's POV). A curse Garin called down on the Valyrians; as he called for Mother Rhoyne to destroy them. If we give that tale some credence it makes sense that the Rhoynar have an immunity to the disease (hence the Dornish), but that Valyrians (Targaryens) would be susceptible to it.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I'm sure I'll catch grief for this, but I think all 3 Lannister children are Aerys'. I've been cooking up a theory about them on the side. Off the top of my head, I have:

- Incest

- Cersei's love of wildfire

- the parallels in character between Cersei/Viserys, Jaime/Rhaegar, and Tyrion/Dany

- the fact that Jaime and Cersei have children fitting the aforementioned sibling paradigm: M/M/F - Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella

- Aerys being a rapist

No where near as complete a list as it could be. Just some thoughts.

This makes some sense to me. Aerys would've had to rape Joanna twice then which is definitely not out of the question.

I personally would pair Tyrion with Rhaegar though. I know he isn't a battle warrior but they have other similarities. And then would pair Dany with Jaime. They are both struggling with being honorable, what is right & wrong, and have made choices that on the surface appear less than honorable but when explained appear very different, at least to me.

[jon rhaegar stark]

i was reading about Bonifer and sure it seems possible that Knight Ser barristan mentions is him

it seems he was working under Lord Owen merryweather ...who was Hand of the King to Aerys and was exiled for unabling to control RR,...so Bonifer would have gone out with him he could not have been in KL

another thing i have to mention about him is:

• he chose renly over stannis during war of 5 kings
  
• after renly died he switched his sides to Stannis
  
• after Stannis was defeated in Blackwater Bay ..he was captured by the lannisters
  
• then he bends Knee to Joffery
  
• and chosen as castellan of Harrenhall which jamie believes the work of Taena and Orton merryweather who convinced Cersei to name him
  

i mean this could ever be a father to Daenarys given his track record ...he is too too minor character to be father of her

[UnmaskedLurker]

GRRM has stated that the three heads do not have to be Targaryens. That means that the three dragon riders do not have to be Targaryens.

Arguably a Targ bastard (be it Aegon if he is really a Blackfyre or Tyrion if Aerys is his father) is not a Targaryen but has Targ blood and therefore is a dragon. Now if GRRM had said that the three heads do not have to have Targaryen blood--then I would take this criticism of the theory seriously--but no one thinks the three heads will be three "legitimate-born" Targaryens, so the comment from GRRM is irrelevant to the analysis. By the way, I don't see how it could be (f)Aegon because Young Griff is too minor a character to be one of the heads, but we'll see.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I feel that I must ask again... why do you think that three dragon riders = three saviors? pobeb, we're talking in circle, and that's why lol. I will not do this exercise the way you instructed, because if you've read my posts, you should know by now where I stand. Sometimes it is the questions I do not find relevant, or objective; other times it is the answer I find unsatisfying.

It also makes sense to me, that Rhaegal the "green" dragon is ridden by Dany's antagonist, since she has a strong bond to Drogon the "black" dragon. I agree with JonCon's Red Beard's observation about the rusty dragon; and belong to that category of people who believe that fAegon is a Blackfyre....but will also become a dragon rider... He has the "blood" if not the name. Just like Jon.

I will address my view regarding just the two points above, but they are somewhat connected. If there are three heads of the dragon because prophesy requires it to save humanity, then we have to find the three heads. Given the the Targaryen House is the dragon house, it seems natural to me that the three heads will be of House Targaryen (or a Targ bastard--as the saying goes, a dragon is a dragon whether black or red). So once you conclude that there must be three Targ heads--what are they there for? Or more to the point, if there are three dragons, shouldn't we expect them to be part of the final battle, and don't we need to find dragon riders (generally believed to require Targ (or other Valaryion) blood)? So if we have three heads being three Targs that come together, isn't it natural to conclude that they also will be the three dragon riders going into the final battle. Who else would the dragon riders be?

As to whether (f)Aegon will ride Rhaegal, I believe he will. Jon will ride Rhaegal only after (f)Aegon is dead. I do not think (f)Aegon can be one of the heads of the dragon (even though he has Targ blood, even if only as a Blackfyre) because Young Griff entered the story too late to be one of the main heroes.

[pobeb]

In any case, my answering Yes or No, serves no purpose at all.

Oh, but it does...

I'm trying to figure out a way to help you look at this more objectively. Can we try something out?

I'm going to write up a list of questions.

I'll form my questions in a way which I only need a Yes or No answer.

Remember, the purpose of this exercise is to look at my list objectively, therefore you don't need to elaborate on why you do or don't agree.

You see, the exercise wasn't to have you simply answer Yes or No

It was to test your ability to look at my theory objectively.

Yes, BUT

And you proved that you are not able to do this. Every time I saw you respond with "but", I cringed, because it only served to highlight the exact point where you missed the purpose of the exercise. Maybe I need to draw up a scantron or something next time...

This is the reason we can't seem to see eye to eye. We're never going to agree on the points I've made because you won't take an objective stance; which is how my list of similarities apply.

Looking at things objectively is something you need to learn to do. Not just for the sake of my ideas, but for your own. When trying to find a solution for something, it's best to consider all possible angles; not just the angles which are most appealing or best fit your agenda.

Have I considered that I'm wrong? Of course. The 3 headed dragon could be any number of things. It could mean the 3 aspects of Aegon. It could mean Jon, Aegon, Dany. It could mean Dany, Arya, Jon, or any other combination. It could be just a gigantic red herring.

I know my theories of Dany being Bonifer's and Tyrion being Aerys' are not supported well in the text.

I've considered all these things. And after careful consideration, I looked at my own theory and saw areas where it was really strong - stronger even than many other theories. If you look at the list objectively, you can't deny that not only are Dany, Jon, and Tyrion so uniquely connected, but they all have this reoccurring pattern of 3. When I see that, objectively, I tie it to 3 heads of the dragon. And once I do that, the rest of the pieces begin to fall in place. More so than the other theories regarding this particular subject.