thekindlywaif Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 1st time post.Read books initially during GoT season 1. Just finished rereading aSoS and Feast/Dance together simultaneously (was way better second time like this btw).I have read a lot of people's opinions about Aegon being fake and I can't buy into any of them. I never got any suspicion about it and in my heart always believed he was real. After finishing the epilogue earlier tonight, I'm now convinced for sure he is who he thinks he is.After Varys shoots Kevan and he knows Kevan will not ever live to repeat what he tells him, what motivation does Varys have for lying about switching Aegon as a baby?Also I found the analogy of the master of whispers helping the royal fam (another Aegon no less) escape during a sack of kings landing in tPatQ too strikingly similar not to be a nod (or foreshadowing after the fact) for what Varys did for baby Aegon before the lions could sack the city.Please, I'd love to know how some the fAegon believers can dismiss Varys' statements to a dying Kevan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Varys never told Kevan that he switched Aegon as a baby, or that Rhaegar's son was alive. So, no, technically he didn't lie... and that's the only thing you're right about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerg Sknab Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Varys never told Kevan that he switched Aegon as a baby, or that Rhaegar's son was alive. So, no, technically he didn't lie... and that's the only thing you're right about. Why is it necessary for Varys to say specifically that Aegon is Rhaegar's son or explain the switch...Isn't the intimation enough to a dying man... Kevan..."Dead. He's dead."...Varys "No. He is here. Aegon has been shaped to rule...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Why is it necessary for Varys to say specifically that Aegon is Rhaegar's son or explain the switch...Isn't the intimation enough to a dying man... Kevan..."Dead. He's dead."...Varys "No. He is here. Aegon has been shaped to rule...."Why is it necessary for Varys to explicitly tell Kevan the truth? What does he stand to gain from it?Especially with his little birds listening.And it wouldn't be the first time Varys has just "intimated" things to people and let them come to the wrong conclusion (as with Ned Stark and Hugh of the Vale). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerg Sknab Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Why is it necessary for Varys to explicitly tell Kevan the truth? What does he stand to gain from it?Especially with his little birds listening.You better tell me, I'm coming up blank...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 You better tell me, I'm coming up blank......?? I'm the one arguing he had no reason to be absolutely open with Kevan. It's just a silly trope from bad fiction that you absolutely must tell the entire truth about your nefarious schemes to someone just because they are about to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerg Sknab Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 ?? I'm the one arguing he had no reason to be absolutely open with Kevan. It's just a silly trope from bad fiction that you absolutely must tell the entire truth about your nefarious schemes to someone just because they are about to die. It is time tested trope whether for good or bad fiction.... Varys was very open about why he wanted to be rid of Kevan...The discussion about Aegon was just to "rub it the in face" and to show the Lannister finagling for the IT was for naught.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 It is time tested trope whether for good or bad fiction....Varys was very open about why he wanted to be rid of Kevan...The discussion about Aegon was just to "rub it the in face" and to show the Lannister finagling for the IT was for naught...."Dead. He's dead."...Varys "No. He is here. Aegon has been shaped to rule...." Varys, the one who started the talk, was talking about the Aegon with Connington. That Aegon Varys was referring to isn't dead. Varys was lying through omission ir false impression. He doesn't mention Aegon as Rhaegar's son. "Even when we are alone.""Especially when we are alone. Elsewise, a day will come when a servant walks into a room unannounced, or a guardsman at the door chances to hear something he should not." Those are the words of LF, and Varys would no doubt know that it doesn't hurt to be extra cautious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Those are the words of LF, and Varys would no doubt know that it doesn't hurt to be extra cautious. Not just that... I mean, they weren't alone. Now, for all those that may argue that children are mute, we have very resounding Wex example where the mute child can indeed communicate with someone. And, not to mention fact that Wex was illiterate, something Varys' birds aren't. So, to obtain information from them you need only to catch them... Generally, it is my belief that the entire conversation was somewhat more "breaking the 4th wall" than just ordinary conversation between 2 characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Not just that... I mean, they weren't alone. Now, for all those that may argue that children are mute, we have very resounding Wex example where the mute child can indeed communicate with someone. And, not to mention fact that Wex was illiterate, something Varys' birds aren't. So, to obtain information from them you need only to catch them... Generally, it is my belief that the entire conversation was somewhat more "breaking the 4th wall" than just ordinary conversation between 2 characters. I think there is even more to it. Varys kills Kevan and at the same time he seems to beg his forgiveness. He talks utter BS like how he serves the Realm, how Aegon is the perfect king etc. This makes me think that he is giving a specific speech for an observer who is watching (but does not know that Varys knows his presence); and that observer is supposed to report the whole thing to a player. My first bet would be Doran. Varys is polishing Aegon for his inspection. At the same time Varys does not look like a cold blooded killer but a servant of the Realm who committed this vile act only for the greater good of the Realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 If Varys wanted to be extra cautious, he could have just not have said anything, but shoot Kevan and be done with it. I'm curious as to why did Varys go into prolonged speech about just king Aegon at all? For whose benefit was he speaking? For now, I'm inclined to think his speech was mostly there for readers, not for any characters in books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 If Varys wanted to be extra cautious, he could have just not have said anything, but shoot Kevan and be done with it. I'm curious as to why did Varys go into prolonged speech about just king Aegon at all? For whose benefit was he speaking? For now, I'm inclined to think his speech was mostly there for readers, not for any characters in books. I don't remember any passage meant for the readers instead of the characters in the whole series. That is similar to using omnipotent POV and GRRM specifically avoids doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I think there is even more to it. Varys kills Kevan and at the same time he seems to beg his forgiveness. He talks utter BS like how he serves the Realm, how Aegon is the perfect king etc. This makes me think that he is giving a specific speech for an observer who is watching (but does not know that Varys knows his presence); and that observer is supposed to report the whole thing to a player. My first bet would be Doran. Varys is polishing Aegon for his inspection. At the same time Varys does not look like a cold blooded killer but a servant of the Realm who committed this vile act only for the greater good of the Realm. Perhaps Varys, as a really good spymaster, is always keeping in mind the possibility that some of his little birds may be double agents recruited by someone else; or may decide to use it against him in the future. Being mute doesn't mean unable to communicate (and if it were, they'd be useless as spies). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I don't remember any passage meant for the readers instead of the characters in the whole series. That is similar to using omnipotent POV and GRRM specifically avoids doing that. Neither do I, but it's the most plausible theory I have. If there was someone else's agent there, Varys horribly risks that his whole "Cersei, Dornishman and Tyrells blame each other" plan goes awry. IMO, it's obvious his plan was to murder Kevan and Pycelle secretly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I don't remember any passage meant for the readers instead of the characters in the whole series. That is similar to using omnipotent POV and GRRM specifically avoids doing that. Well, I generally agree with this, but the purpose of this scene may come later (like Sansa and Lysa's confession). At the moment there is nothing that suggests that Varys' speech is intended for someone to listen. I imagine that at some point this scene would find its purpose, but for the time being, I don't see much of it. This makes me think that he is giving a specific speech for an observer who is watching (but does not know that Varys knows his presence); and that observer is supposed to report the whole thing to a player. My first bet would be Doran. Varys is polishing Aegon for his inspection. At the same time Varys does not look like a cold blooded killer but a servant of the Realm who committed this vile act only for the greater good of the Realm. Interesting idea... But, of course, as Annara said, we return to little birds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Perhaps Varys, as a really good spymaster, is always keeping in mind the possibility that some of his little birds may be double agents recruited by someone else; or may decide to use it against him in the future. Being mute doesn't mean unable to communicate (and if it were, they'd be useless as spies). Interesting idea... But, of course, as Annara said, we return to little birds. Agree with the double agents idea. Varys said he was feeding choice whispers to LF. Such an act is only possible with double agents. One of the little birds might be secretly working for someone else and Varys might pretend to not notice that. This way he can control the amount of information reported to that player and given how he is a master of technical truths and manipulation, he can really make a pawn of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.