The Eunuch Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 But she doesn't know that and she grew certainly more powerful than he could have anticipated. Yes but Daenerys is not stupid, she can listen. She listened to Barristan, why not Varys? Come on, here's what he (and Illyrio) did for her: -Host her and Viserys at Illyrio's mansion, -Make the deal with the dothrakis to have an army, -Give her dragon eggs, -Send her Jorah, -Warn Jorah about the assassination attempt, -Let Cersei kill Robert, -Help the Stark/Lannister war to weaken the Realm, -Send her Barristan, Strong Belwas and a fleet, -Hire the Golden Company -Send her Aegon, -Send her Tyrion (whom Varys deeply respects). Should I go on? We don't know if Daenerys and Varys will meet but I would be really surprised if she could kill him after that. He would become one of her major advisors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Yes but Daenerys is not stupid, she can listen. She listened to Barristan, why not Varys? Come on, here's what he (and Illyrio) did for her: -Host her and Viserys at Illyrio's mansion, -Make the deal with the dothrakis to have an army, -Give her dragon eggs, -Send her Jorah, -Warn Jorah about the assassination attempt, -Let Cersei kill Robert, -Help the Stark/Lannister war to weaken the Realm, -Send her Barristan, Strong Belwas and a fleet, -Hire the Golden Company -Send her Aegon, -Send her Tyrion (whom Varys deeply respects). Should I go on? We don't know if Daenerys and Varys will meet but I would be really surprised if she could kill him after that. Yes, I never denied that he did much for her. But because he liked to keep low she doesn't even know that someone did that. And even less that Varys specifically was behind it. Seriously, how is she going to know that he let Cersei kill Robert through an accident? Send her Jorah? That's a bad thing from her standpoint. 90% he does is clandestine so it ca't be tracked back to him and a lot of this was also Littlefinger, so how is she to know what he may or may not have done to help her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordQorgyle Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 No way Dany already knows that Varys change sides like the wind if they meet Varys will be Drogon's meal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tyrion I Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 We can narrow it down to a few:TyrionLittlefingerTywinAemonVarysLuwynOlennaSam ^ :agree: But I'd also like to add Mance Rayder and Davos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batbob45 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Bronze Yohn seems to be smart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilrob6 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 There are plenty of smart, intelligent characters, in a lot of different ways, but my vote goes to Missandei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eunuch Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Yes, I never denied that he did much for her. But because he liked to keep low she doesn't even know that someone did that. I totally agree with you, but she's not like burning people without hearing them talk... Daenerys will never forget who gave her dragon eggs (and how important they became to her), and Illyrio would be a good link between Dany and Varys. The same for Jorah, Barristan... Furthermore, Varys convinced Robert and Tywin after working with Aerys, I don't think Daenerys would be harder to convice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Detective Cersei is pretty sharp too. Master of deduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I totally agree with you, but she's not like burning people without hearing them talk... Daenerys will never forget who gave her dragon eggs (and how important they became to her), and Illyrio would be a good link between Dany and Varys. The same for Jorah, Barristan... Furthermore, Varys convinced Robert and Tywin after working with Aerys, I don't think Daenerys would be harder to convice... I'm just saying that she has become increasingly powerful on top of growing weary of people in general. She got exploited and deceived all her life even after getting more confidence and by people she trusted no less. I think it becomes more difficult to gain her trust by the minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Detective Cersei is pretty sharp too. Master of deduction. "Brilliant, Snape Cersei, once again you've put your keen and penetrating mind to the task and as usual come to the wrong conclusion". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Tyrell Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Catelyn is smart, one of the smartest characters I believe. We just met her at the worst time of her life. When she was betrayed and lied to. She later suffered depression, what can explain some over-emotional choices she made. We all know some of her decisions weren't the best for her family, but I also believe the author used her as a conduit for giving reasons to start the war. Aside the controversial actions she took, she often strikes as a rational and pragmatic woman. Cat is not smart. Name one decision she made that wasn't almost solely from an emotional perspective. I put her on the same level as Cersei. The only difference between her and Cersei is that Cat is sane while Cersei is absolutely batshit. There isn't a single rational action she took throughout the series. Let's just say there's a reason why Ned never told her about Jon's true parentage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Alayne Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Cat is not smart. Name one decision she made that wasn't almost solely from an emotional perspective. I put her on the same level as Cersei. The only difference between her and Cersei is that Cat is sane while Cersei is absolutely batshit. There isn't a single rational action she took throughout the series. Let's just say there's a reason why Ned never told her about Jon's true parentage. Capturing Tyrion The Renly Meeting Ned going south Don't send theon robb Her advocating to end the war at robb's council The Frey alliance annnnnd many more. Even the Jaime release, while emotionally motivated, was logically thought out, based on a promise Tyrion gave, and desparate circumstances for a mother who has been through hell. Also the only character who doesn't make emotional decisions is areo "the camera" hotah… and we know how great he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Witch Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Cat is not smart. Name one decision she made that wasn't almost solely from an emotional perspective. I put her on the same level as Cersei. The only difference between her and Cersei is that Cat is sane while Cersei is absolutely batshit. There isn't a single rational action she took throughout the series. Let's just say there's a reason why Ned never told her about Jon's true parentage. Cat wasn't sane either, depression is an illness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Even the Jaime release, while emotionally motivated, was logically thought out, based on a promise Tyrion gave, and desparate circumstances for a mother who has been through hell. Good god no. It was incredibly stupid. This isn't hindsight, either. As soon as she did that I was like 'wtf?' The ONLY lever she had to maybe in any way secure her daughter(s) safety is possession of Jaime. Add to that the fact that he is also thus not this armoured buzz saw for the other side when he's chained up in the basement.Killing him secures the buzz saw issue but risks your daughters. Conducting a formal exchange saves your daughters but reintroduces the buzz saw to the field of battle. Keeping him in chains is a win-win.What's the ONLY way I can fuck this up both ways?I know, some solo venture to send him across a war zone accompanied by his relative and 1 warrior. That also has the added benefit of completely undermining my son's moral authority. Genius!Just crazy-dumb. Also incredibly hypocritical, because it's the kind of selfish decision she would advise Robb to be completely intolerant with if anyone else did it.I think taking Tyrion was a very stupid move handled very intelligently. I thought her advice, though usually conventional, and often wrong, was almost always reasonable and solid. Generally she was pretty smart, though she always had big blind spots. But this? This was just wacko stupid.n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Alayne Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Good god no. It was incredibly stupid. This isn't hindsight, either. As soon as she did that I was like 'wtf?'The ONLY lever she had to maybe in any way secure her daughter(s) safety is possession of Jaime. Add to that the fact that he is also thus not this armoured buzz saw for the other side when he's chained up in the basement.Killing him secures the buzz saw issue but risks your daughters. Conducting a formal exchange saves your daughters but reintroduces the buzz saw to the field of battle. Keeping him in chains is a win-win.What's the ONLY way I can fuck this up both ways?I know, some solo venture to send him across a war zone accompanied by his relative and 1 warrior. That also has the added benefit of completely undermining my son's moral authority. Genius!Just crazy-dumb. Also incredibly hypocritical, because it's the kind of selfish decision she would advise Robb to be completely intolerant with if anyone else did it.I think taking Tyrion was a very stupid move handled very intelligently. I thought her advice, though usually conventional, and often wrong, was almost always reasonable and solid. Generally she was pretty smart, though she always had big blind spots.But this? This was just wacko stupid.n I agree it was a rash and desparate move, relying on a tiny piece of chance. But I don't think it undermines her intelligence as a character. She had just found out that her youngest children had been murdered for fucks sake i think Robb's authority over his bannerman was the last of her concerns. She wanted her daughters back because she was becoming increasingly sure that they would not beat the lannisters, and there was no way that Robb would give up Jaime Lannister. What other options did she have? She couldn't use a large escort, because those are robb's men. Conducting a formal exchange was not an option. Taking Tyrion was the best possible move given Catelyn's knowledge at the time. Characters aren't blessed with hindsight might i remind you. What advice in particular did you think was unwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Capturing Tyrion The Renly Meeting Ned going south Don't send theon robb Her advocating to end the war at robb's council The Frey alliance annnnnd many more. Even the Jaime release, while emotionally motivated, was logically thought out, based on a promise Tyrion gave, and desparate circumstances for a mother who has been through hell. Also the only character who doesn't make emotional decisions is areo "the camera" hotah… and we know how great he is. This is a list of the most idiotic moves in all the books (safe Theon related advice). If it proves anything, it proves that Catelyn Stark was one of the stupidest, self-involved, arrogant characters in all the books combined. Desperate mother who was going through hell? She created that hell by talking Ned into going south, by arresting Tyrion, by believing LF, a man whom she snubbed and who almost got killed for her (and she believes him! How self-important must one feel to fall for that!), by leading negotiations with the Freys poorly, by releasing Jaime. If there was an award for stupidity in Westeros, she will be an undisputed champion. However, your avatar says it all. You must love her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Herman Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Stannis Well he is the smartest of the 5 kings (IMO). 1. Stannis 2. Robb 3. Renly 4. Balon 5. Joffrey Overall it's a contest between Tyrion, Aemon, possibly Varys, and maybe Rodrik the reader and Sam. I'd give an honourable mention to Tywin but he was so blind where his family was concerned "the crossbow thrummed". I certainly wouldn't put Catelyn up there, she's not stupid, but certainly not much above average if at all, she recognises Theon as untrustworthy and the Greatjon as unsuitable for command, but she also trusts Littlefinger, tells Ned to go south and arrests Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyoshi Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 My vote goes to Missandei. And I know I'll get a lot of crap for this but Daenerys as well. despite her actions and decisions not being well received by readers and characters alike, she's probably the smartest of all the kings and queens we've seen so far. Definitely smarter than Robb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WexPyke Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Littlefinger and Varys do the hardest thing to do namely have power and influence with out a significant title. Not kings and yet wield influence. That makes them smartest for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyoshi Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Cat is not smart. Name one decision she made that wasn't almost solely from an emotional perspective. I put her on the same level as Cersei. The only difference between her and Cersei is that Cat is sane while Cersei is absolutely batshit. There isn't a single rational action she took throughout the series. Let's just say there's a reason why Ned never told her about Jon's true parentage. I agree. Once she failed to realise Littlefinger's arguably simplest lie, she lost me in terms of seeming/being smart. She was wise in other respects though, but I don't think she was particularly smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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