[SPOILERS] Tower Lord: Book 2 of Raven's Shadow

[john]

Elverah (Frentis' Wife) is definitely a creature like the Witch's Bastard and the third sibling who possessed Davoka's sister. She makes reference to her shell, which she has had for a long time. She also speaks to one of the Witch's Bastard's shells in Volaria where she discusses the Ally's plans. At the end of the book she is held in the beyond as a punishment by the Ally. She's also the woman from Ahm Ling's (?) story who killed the Merchant King and she refers to it in this book. We know from that story that she has the blood song and it's hinted at throughout this book too.

The Mahlessa tells Lyrna that there is only three such creatures who possess gifted who have died and they're all accounted for.

[Faint]

I am still doubtful about Frentis' "wife" being the sister but I think we are getting pretty close to a consensus on everything else.

[Faint]

She also speaks to one of the Witch's Bastard's shells in Volaria where she discusses the Ally's plans.

Are you talking about the guy she kills from who she steals her fire powers? I thought that was just a former lover who happened to be gifted.

She's also the woman from Ahm Ling's (?) story who killed the Merchant King and she refers to it in this book. We know from that story that she has the blood song and it's hinted at throughout this book too.

Where is this story from? Is it from the first book?

[Mexal]

I am still doubtful about Frentis' "wife" being the sister but I think we are getting pretty close to a consensus on everything else.

I'm almost 100% sure she's the sister as well. I agree with everyone else.

[john]

I am still doubtful about Frentis' "wife" being the sister but I think we are getting pretty close to a consensus on everything else.

Why are you doubtful? :P The Nameless Seer (guy she steals fire powers from) says that she's "still clinging to the same shell." According to the Mahlessa the things that use shells are the Ally's three creatures. Davoka's sister is one. The Witch's Bastard is a few more. And she therefore has to be the last one, the elder sister.

Are you talking about the guy she kills from who she steals her fire powers? I thought that was just a former lover who happened to be gifted.

Where is this story from? Is it from the first book?

No the Witch's Bastard is possessing a guy inside her house. He greets Frentis as Brother and urchin (like Barkus used to call him). He gives her the list of people to kill and tells her the Ally's orders and his threats of endless torment if she fails (which she laughs off). The Nameless Seer is an unknown element at this point, I'd say he's one of the gifted that fight the Ally, maybe on the Mahlessa's side.

And yes, Ahm Ling's story is from the first book. She also says in this book about how she once had to kill a guy in the Far West.

[Mudguard]

Actually, Frentis' wife apparent lack of use of her blood song power bothered me. Shouldn't she have been able to tell that Frentis failed to kill the Hope's wife? Wouldn't the song give her some hint that something wasn't right with either Frentis or with the mission being unfinished? Also, wouldn't the blood song warn her that Frentis was about to backstab her? She's had hundreds of years to develop her blood song powers, so she should be a complete master with it. In contrast, Vaelin practiced for several years while in jail with no teacher, yet he can dodge arrows, sword thrusts, and is pretty much invincible on the battlefield.

[Faint]

Why are you doubtful? . . .

Alright, you have me convinced. It makes things so much simpler if she is the sister too. So I will go with that.

[trickster]

Why are you doubtful? :P The Nameless Seer (guy she steals fire powers from) says that she's "still clinging to the same shell." According to the Mahlessa the things that use shells are the Ally's three creatures. Davoka's sister is one. The Witch's Bastard is a few more. And she therefore has to be the last one, the elder sister.

No the Witch's Bastard is possessing a guy inside her house. He greets Frentis as Brother and urchin (like Barkus used to call him). He gives her the list of people to kill and tells her the Ally's orders and his threats of endless torment if she fails (which she laughs off). The Nameless Seer is an unknown element at this point, I'd say he's one of the gifted that fight the Ally, maybe on the Mahlessa's side.

And yes, Ahm Ling's story is from the first book. She also says in this book about how she once had to kill a guy in the Far West.

He was definitely working with Elverah before he had a change of heart. His name was Revek (she calls him by that name). He somehow broke free (may be that's why he could plant the seed on Frentis). He let the shell go older. He seemed to know Elverah very well, was her lover for sure. Their interaction and some of the conversation make these quite obvious imo

"Don't forget what I've seen, what we did" ( Elverah)

"What we were made to do" (Revek)

"I recall no reluctance on your part" ( Elverah)

"Reluctance, oh there was that, when it was time to leave you.......I had changed by that time" (Revek)

....

"my scrying is not what it was. It's the way with stolen gifts...." (Revek)

[Corvinus85]

Actually, Frentis' wife apparent lack of use of her blood song power bothered me. Shouldn't she have been able to tell that Frentis failed to kill the Hope's wife? Wouldn't the song give her some hint that something wasn't right with either Frentis or with the mission being unfinished? Also, wouldn't the blood song warn her that Frentis was about to backstab her? She's had hundreds of years to develop her blood song powers, so she should be a complete master with it. In contrast, Vaelin practiced for several years while in jail with no teacher, yet he can dodge arrows, sword thrusts, and is pretty much invincible on the battlefield.

That is a good thought. It is possible she lost the blood song somehow, especially if the blood song had actually been stolen, like the power over fire.

[trickster]

I just reread Blood Song and something struck me.The general consensus is that Vaelin the Darkblade and Lyrna is the Queen of Fire. She got burnt and became the queen. Vaelin is already known as the Darkbladee. Lyrna loves Vaelin, at least she has a crush. Sister Sherin seems happy (it was insinuated that may be she is with somebody else now) and Vaelin stopped looking for her with the Song. He is not angry with Lyrna anymore. So the expectation is Lyrna and Vaelin will get together at some point next book.

But I was reading Blood Song where the prophesy says that the Darkblade will be seduced by a sorceress who made herself a queen with the power to conjure up fire from the air. Together they wreck terrible ruin on the world.... Now obviously Lyrna is going to destroy the Volarian empire. But is she gifted?

What if the Queen of Fire is Elverah? Elverah is a sorceress capable of conjuring up fire. I could see her becoming a queen if she wants to. So will she seduce Vaelin? I do not think so. She seems to be truly in love with Frentis. Also Vaelin seems too strong to be in her clutches.

Now does Frentis fit the description of Darkblade. ( I think Mexal mentioned this in the last thread) .The prophesy says

" a near invincible heretic Swordsman": can be used to describe Frentis. He may not be as good as Vaelin, but is there anyone else better than him?

"who will smite the holy and strike down those who labour in the service of the world father": this part is a bit tricky. But the prophesy does not say that the Darkblade will kill the Trueblade (Vaelin also did not kill him, it was Barkus). But Vaelin did lead the force that destryed Hentes Mustor. So it does match with him. But may be Frentis can still fulfill this part. He has not had any interaction with the Cumbraelins so far, but may be next book?

"know him by his blade for it was forged in an unnatural fire" : Both Vaelin and Frentis use their order forged blade. So not sure how this is fulfilled.

"guided by the voice of the Dark": Vaelin follows the song. So this fits well with him. But Frentis was being guided by Elverah and I'm sure they will meet again.

Now I still think that Vaelin is the Darkblade and Lyrna is the Queen of Fire. But I think it is quite interesting that you could argue for Frentis and Elverah.

[Corvinus85]

I just reread Blood Song and something struck me.The general consensus is that Vaelin the Darkblade and Lyrna is the Queen of Fire. She got burnt and became the queen. Vaelin is already known as the Darkbladee. Lyrna loves Vaelin, at least she has a crush. Sister Sherin seems happy (it was insinuated that may be she is with somebody else now) and Vaelin stopped looking for her with the Song. He is not angry with Lyrna anymore. So the expectation is Lyrna and Vaelin will get together at some point next book.

But I was reading Blood Song where the prophesy says that the Darkblade will be seduced by a sorceress who made herself a queen with the power to conjure up fire from the air. Together they wreck terrible ruin on the world.... Now obviously Lyrna is going to destroy the Volarian empire. But is she gifted?

What if the Queen of Fire is Elverah? Elverah is a sorceress capable of conjuring up fire. I could see her becoming a queen if she wants to. So will she seduce Vaelin? I do not think so. She seems to be truly in love with Frentis. Also Vaelin seems too strong to be in her clutches.

Now does Frentis fit the description of Darkblade. ( I think Mexal mentioned this in the last thread) .The prophesy says

" a near invincible heretic Swordsman": can be used to describe Frentis. He may not be as good as Vaelin, but is there anyone else better than him?

"who will smite the holy and strike down those who labour in the service of the world father": this part is a bit tricky. But the prophesy does not say that the Darkblade will kill the Trueblade (Vaelin also did not kill him, it was Barkus). But Vaelin did lead the force that destryed Hentes Mustor. So it does match with him. But may be Frentis can still fulfill this part. He has not had any interaction with the Cumbraelins so far, but may be next book?

"know him by his blade for it was forged in an unnatural fire" : Both Vaelin and Frentis use their order forged blade. So not sure how this is fulfilled.

"guided by the voice of the Dark": Vaelin follows the song. So this fits well with him. But Frentis was being guided by Elverah and I'm sure they will meet again.

Now I still think that Vaelin is the Darkblade and Lyrna is the Queen of Fire. But I think it is quite interesting that you could argue for Frentis and Elverah.

Indeed. When Elverah gets a new body we'll know if she still has the power of fire. That will be an important clue. And even though Frentis has been healed of his scars, the dreams that he still has of her suggest that he may be falling for her in the end.

Also, I don't know about Lyrna. What was happening with her at the end of the book suggests she was going to be healed.

[trickster]

Indeed. When Elverah gets a new body we'll know if she still has the power of fire. That will be an important clue. And even though Frentis has been healed of his scars, the dreams that he still has of her suggest that he may be falling for her in the end.

Also, I don't know about Lyrna. What was happening with her at the end of the book suggests she was going to be healed.

I am pretty sure that Weaver healed Lyrna. So may be she will have the unburnt (ala Dany in asoiaf) reputation morph into Queen of Fire :dunno: . But so far nothing indicates that she is capable of conjuring fire from air.

I think it'll be ironic if after all being said and done, Frentis and Elverah settle down somewhere in a quiet corner like Sherin wanted to ( Vaelin fantasied about that in book 1) and Vaelin ends up as the consort of Lyrna or dead. I hope Vaelin gets to live a quiet life with Sherin; but I suspect it's not happening.

[Faint]

Very interesting. I really have to read the first book again. I think I learn towards the prophecy referring to Lyrna, if for no other reason than because of a lack of another good candidate. Elverah would seem to be the only other choice, but there are various complications with her as the one referenced in the prophecy, starting with the fact that she and Vaelin have already met and he has already identified who she is and who she works for. That said, I do not see her love of Frentis as preventing her from seducing Vaelin. That love has very likely already turned to hate and it would not surprise me in the slightest if Elverah simply wants vengeance against Frentis now.

[trickster]

That is a good thought. It is possible she lost the blood song somehow, especially if the blood song had actually been stolen, like the power over fire.

She never lost the song. In fact she tell's the Hope's wife regarding Frentis : "every time we kill together our bond grows. I know he feels it, my song tells me so"

[ALAPHD]

Enjoyed the two books so far.

Felt Lyrna's POV was the most interesting, Reva's started of interesting but then she just turned into a badass general/killing machine. Concede she was an assassin in training but seemed a little to quick, then again that is one of the hallmarks of these books, the author gets from A to B to Z pretty quick which is refreshing. Need more of brother Caenis but that will come in the next book since their was major foreshadowing early in book 1. Think Lady Emeren will get a POV next book or maybe Neliesen her bodyguard.

I thought it was obvious Veliss was Janus's agent that Vaelin let go in the bakery. (Book 1)

Was sad to see the deaths of Dentos (reminded me a bit of Delorous Edd) in book 1. Don't think Vaelin will be happy to discover former brother Iltis was the likely culprit since he admitted to trying to kill Vaelin after his beatdown on the Lynish docks. That's if he survived the attack on Lyrna.

Also the death Brother Mackril, thought he had great potential going forward. To rub salt in the wound Frentis makes his killer the slave torturer (number 34) part of the team. Though I suppose brothers of the order have to be practical.....

Seem to have a penchant for minor characters who have enough colour to make them interesting then BANG morte! :(

[Corvinus85]

Enjoyed the two books so far.

Felt Lyrna's POV was the most interesting, Reva's started of interesting but then she just turned into a badass general/killing machine. Concede she was an assassin in training but seemed a little to quick, then again that is one of the hallmarks of these books, the author gets from A to B to Z pretty quick which is refreshing. Need more of brother Caenis but that will come in the next book since their was major foreshadowing early in book 1. Think Lady Emeren will get a POV next book or maybe Neliesen her bodyguard.

I thought it was obvious Veliss was Janus's agent that Vaelin let go in the bakery. (Book 1)

Was sad to see the deaths of Dentos (reminded me a bit of Delorous Edd) in book 1. Don't think Vaelin will be happy to discover former brother Iltis was the likely culprit since he admitted to trying to kill Vaelin after his beatdown on the Lynish docks. That's if he survived the attack on Lyrna.

Also the death Brother Mackril, thought he had great potential going forward. To rub salt in the wound Frentis makes his killer the slave torturer (number 34) part of the team. Though I suppose brothers of the order have to be practical.....

Seem to have a penchant for minor characters who have enough colour to make them interesting then BANG morte! :(

Iltis wanted to kill Vaelin with a crossbow outside of the house of Vaelin's family. Iltis was the one who reached for the crossbow when the Fourth Order came to "greet" Vaelin. So the likely culprit is just a random Alpiran.

[ALAPHD]

Seems my grief has clouded my memory. :lol:

Ta for the correction.

[Faint]

She never lost the song. In fact she tell's the Hope's wife regarding Frentis : "every time we kill together our bond grows. I know he feels it, my song tells me so"

But the connection with Frentis was broken when Lyra knifed him, correct?

[Mexal]

But the connection with Frentis was broken when Lyra knifed him, correct?

Yup.

[Migey]

Just finished. A lot of thoughts about this book.

I liked it, just as much as Blood Song in fact. I felt like Ryan made most of the right decisions in terms of PoV; the first book would have suffered from any more PoVs, this book would've suffered from any less. There was refreshingly little overlap; the different PoVs all had relatively distinct storylines. I found that none of the PoVs ever dragged. I was worried when I heard of the change, but unlike some other similar attempts to introduce new PoV's that I've seen I never encountered the feeling of "Oh damn, this guy again". I think the only mistake Ryan made in terms of the PoV change is one which does not in fact bother me at all, (this may be a result of my not being a die-hard Vaelin fanboy), and that is the relatively limited view we get of Vaelin. I liked that he was willing to move away from Vaelin to serve the story, but a lot of the success of Blood Song was down to Vaelin, and it may have been a mistake to withdraw from him so much. There would certainly have been a bit of extra room to give him a little more time, although I feel that while this would've helped some people stomach the change, I don't actually feel it would've made the book better as such.

Anyway, my opinion on each character, in roughly descending order on how well each character was done. Frentis was very strong, I liked him and enjoyed seeing his own mind and observing how different the man we see is from the child we met in book 1. I was also willing to buy his intense bad-assery for much the same reason I was never put off by Vaelin's. Not only did he have the seven years of intense order training, but experience and a further five years in Volarian fighting pits. I would say that five years in such a situation would almost certainly damage one internally or leave more mental scars then we see on Frentis, but this is a relatively minor gripe and he certainly has become much more taciturn as a result. Especially towards the end of the book we see how his experiences have turned him into a man who is certainly willing to do what needs to be done and doesn't bother spending much time feeling bad about it. I really, really liked the relationship between Frentis and Elverah, and really bought it. I was surprised and interested when it began to turn out that Elverah may actually have fallen in love with him, as opposed to just cruelly playing with him, and I felt that Ryan well conveyed Frentis feelings towards her in a believeable way which developed well throughout. I'd put foward Frentis as the best handled PoV character in the book.

Vaelin was good and I enjoyed the fact that his PoV was toned back to give the other new characters their chances to shine (even if exactly half of them seem unwilling to take said chance). However, I do think his character was slightly less interesting than in the first book. A combination of any meaningful decision being made easy by the crutch of the Blood Song, the unwillingness or inability of Ryan to bring up more interesting situations in which Vaelin's personal desires conflict with the song (pretty much the only interesting thing which can be done with such a character mechanic), and the lack of further development on how much Vaelin's character has been shaped by his past led to a character who was a few shades blander than he used to be. It's implied well enough but little is ever really done with his reluctance to fight, or the fact that he has abandoned his faith (although this matter is handled on an implicit level better than it could've been). My opinion on Vaelin here may be a bit controversial, but I actually finding myself thinking he really didn't need to be a PoV at all. He was great in the first book, but not enough was done with his character to warrant him being a PoV here except, like with other characters, the events around him. He's the sort of character who I think would actually gain a lot from being seen only from other characters perspectives. Sort of like Skitter/Taylor in Worm, many of whom's most interesting moments came when we saw her from other characters points of view. Stuff happens around Vaelin but the best parts of his character here could all be had by seeing them from other characters points of view. I really would've welcomed someone like Dahrena having a PoV. She could've been an interesting character (well, maybe not, judging by how Ryan handles the other new female PoV's), and stuff could've been done with her relationship with Vaelin and the dark. I'd like to point out that a bad-ass is always more interesting when we don't get to see his thoughts too much. Seeing Vaelin be wise, make all the right decisions, carve shit up, yadda yadda could perfectly have been conveyed from her perspective, especially as she almost never leaves his side. In the only situations she wouldn't work, Reva would. Maybe one chapter at the end for Vaelin's conversation with Elverah and to set up his song-less return as a PoV for book 3. The way I see it, if an author is going to take risks, they should either go the full way or actually put some thought into mitigating the damage. Vaelin's participation in the story did neither, but at least it wasn't bad.

Lyrna's story (note, story, not necessarily character) interested me, and I felt she too developed fairly well, although I was less enamoured with her arc then with Frentis'. In general Ryan conveyed Lyrna successfully as an intelligent and strong character, although she wasn't overly interesting as her character arc was one I've seen about a hundred times before. Points for pulling it off well though, and providing interesting minor characters to surround her to make things interesting. I have to say I *really* didn't buy her incredibly calm acceptance of her hideous burn scars, and this was easily the weakest link of her story for me. A strong woman, sure. Surprisingly well equipped to deal with the hardships of travelling and combat? *Yawn* I mean sure, very interesting etc. It all worked but the fact is that Lyrna, for all her toughness and strength, has still spent her entire life in a palace, living a relatively easy life and being coddled, and knowing her own beauty. I simply do not accept that she would so willingly accept such disfigurement. I think it would've been far more interesting and realistic if it had seriously affected her and her self-confidence, giving her an interesting internal struggle as she slowly comes to accept her now hideous appearance. It would've made her far less Mary-Sueish. Oh woe, the strong and intelligent heroine has lost her beauty- oh wait, nevermind, she doesn't give a shit? The fact that she never really had a chance to romantically attach herself to anybody does not change how much the stripping of beauty would mean to one used to it. Really interesting things could've been done with the attraction of the Meldenean Shield to her in this regard. Unfortunately, it wasn't to be and Lyrna remains a boring and unoriginal character, with no true virtue other than being well written.

Now to Reva, who is obviously the weak link of the four. It has been stated by others in the thread but it bears repeating that she has no right to be such an unstoppable killing machine. Frentis and Vaelin have legitimate recourse to be that bad-ass, and with Vaelin it only barely works because of the Blood Song as an excuse for him charging headfirst into thousands of trained enemy soldiers and surviving. Frentis being as awesome as he is makes a perfect amount of sense, and he's never forced into any situations like this. Reva may have natural talent and honed skill with the knife, but a knife is not just a slightly shorter sword, and she has neither the 7 years of intense training (a point is made of the fact that she was specifically trained to be sure to die to Vaelin, and she is not even that physically fit at the start, kept half-starved), or the Dark power to aid her. Yet there she is, slashing and being impossibly awesome with the rest of them. Even if it had contrived to make sense, there's only so many impossibly awesome fighting demons you can have in a story before they start to flood the impossibly-awesome-fighting-demon economy. Having somebody slaughter an entire army like the embodiment of Thor and have them mope about it afterwards isn't a character arc, and it certainly doesn't work more than once per story. The rest of Reva's story doesn't work amazingly well either. She becomes willing to listen to Vaelin perhaps slightly too quickly, and is slightly too quick to be seen to throw off the emotional damage inflicted on her by the priest (although that particular aspect could've been handled worse, and it took her a suitably lenghty period of time to come to terms with her sexuality). However how her faith affects her character is handled really really poorly. Vaelin really convinced as a man who wasn't a religious zealot, but simply implicitly believed in the Faith, like so many others (an aspect of the world which I really like and works very well), and his turning from the Faith and abandonment of it also worked very well and convinced. Reva does not interact with her faith in any meaningful or interesting way. Her being the Cumbrealin equivalent of Captain America with tits making her nigh worshipped by her fellow Cumbrealins and all could've at least led to an interesting arc about faith crisis, or affected her character more than it did. However, it didn't and therefore both aspects of her character fell flat in this regard. Her interaction with the regard and virtual worship the defenders heap on her is just badly done in every aspect. Even a token "oh noes everyone is depending on me" would've been better than what we got; nothing. It is impossible, especially for a person like her, to so calmly accept the massive responsibility placed on her and attention of so many people in such a regard. I could have found it interesting if the massive discomfort this should've realistically have caused her may have been what prompted her to fanatically take bigger and bigger risks and fight on the front lines so much and still survive; imagine what a character we could have if the adoration and her faith led to her resolving her faith by concluding that she truly is the Chosen of the Father, and claims her right to rule Cumbreal by her being the daughter of the Trueblade, thereby complicating her relationship with Vaelin? What if her relationship with Vaelin was more realistically tainted by her upbringing? Some really awesome things could be done with this. Unfortunately, not to be. Is there anything good about her? Well, her relationship with her uncle was relatively well handled, and at the very least the events going on around her were more than interesting enough to make me interested in her chapters, but Reva remains the weakest link of the book and indeed the entire series by a mile.

Oh yeah, and Verniers was there too. He was good. Nothing else to say on him. Also a quick mention of the many minor characters. There were a lot, often too many for me to keep track of their often similar names, but in the often lesser-seen and lesser developed minor characters Ryan managed to convey more personality and character than he often did with his PoV characters, and I was certainly more sad to see Arken die than I would've been if Reva had died from food poisoning or something. I'd even go as far as to say that the smaller role minor characters flooding the cast salvaged the often lacklustre PoV's from their own uninteresting characters. Barely a single one was handled poorly, all displaying some form of depth or convincing as human beings. Whether intentional or not, the illusion of depth they give is more than enough (with one or two minor exceptions. Rensial and Janril could have and honestly probably should have been killed off as quickly as possible. I'm just glad Janril takes a hike).

That all said, the book was paced very well, events moving on at an impressive clip. As someone else said, arcs which would've taken other authors a book or two to resolve were either neatly skipped or effectively handled very quickly. Little time was spent on stuff which didn't need time spent on it; for all Lyrna's character is wearing down an already hopelessly worn out archetype, what would've really sealed the deal there would've been a protracted length of time as a slave. Fortunately things like this are noticed and moved on from without a break in stride. The book's strengths become evident when one examines the pacing, in that the events happening are almost always more interesting than the relatively bland characters they happen around, and the books brisk clip keeps this strength visible and utilised to maximum potential. I was impressed when I realised how much had happened with slightly less than 600 pages, meaning each character's story was conveyed across 150 pages. Considering how much happened around, this book is, as far as im concerned, already a shining example as far as im concerned for the value and skills of brevity and concision.

The general story also worked well, with more of the overarching story being revealed and certain events from the first book being given more context. It all worked fine and I enjoyed reading it. I also felt this was well handled as a middle book. Many similar books leave the reader frustrated at being so obviously there to set up the following books, yet Ryan, whatever his intentions, was intelligent enough to make sure this book was an engaging climax of its own and was a satisfying middle entry to the series.

That's pretty much it.

*Wall of text crits*