The Islamic State

[Fez]

Just saw this sentence in the New York Times story on the bombing campaign:

"Hoping to end the war in Iraq, Mr. Obama became the fourth president in a row to order military action in that graveyard of American ambition."

No matter what the context, that's a hell of a turn of phrase.

[Horza]

We could also point to the fact that planes are taking off from the USS George H.W. Bush to bomb American artillery pieces that have fallen into the hands of an insurgent group more extreme than any operating at the time of Desert Storm.

[Arakan]

We could also point to the fact that planes are taking off from the USS George H.W. Bush to bomb American artillery pieces that have fallen into the hands of an insurgent group more extreme than any operating at the time of Desert Storm.

Let's see what happens in the next few days but I will rally behind the US. Unlike many other interventions in the past decades (most prominently 2003) this is what I call a "just cause".

It would be interesting to know from our fellow American users what the general moot looks like over there about this new engagment in Iraq?

Here virtually everyone and all media are cheering for the USAF to bomb the shit out of these maniacs.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Arakan,

Did you watch the Vice news report? There are an awful lot of kids flocking to the ISIS banner, young kids. I suspect that is deliberate. They will hold up the bodies of these children as martyrs to give them even more support. It's darkly logical.

[Arakan]

Arakan,

Did you watch the Vice news report? There are an awful lot of kids flocking to the ISIS banner, young kids. I suspect that is deliberate. They will hold up the bodies of these children as martyrs to give them even more support. It's darkly logical.

Yes, there is a pervert rationale in all of this. My hope is that ISIS will be condemned as "outlaws" within the Muslim world. Of course some will immediately start fingerpointing at Israel but no educated, sane Muslim around the world should be able to justify anything what ISIS does or stands for.

I could rationally comprehend why OBL was considered a rebell against "Satan USA" by some in the Muslim world but this is a whole different level.

[Free Northman Reborn]

So they're bombing 'em.

Saw an interview on CNN with some moderate Muslim guy representing a Muslim organisation in the UK, and he was basically urging the US to go and take these fanatics out.

He said ISIS had been using social media to get thousands of young radicalized Muslim men from Europe, the UK, Australia and the US to flock to Iraq and take up arms in their army of god.

Apparently these guys believe that ISIS is fulfilling a promise in the Quoran about god's righteous armies being blessed and given victories to carve out an Islamic kingdom that will take over the world.

And each victory is seen as strengthening this belief. That's why the sooner they get bombed to a standstill the better. Else they are going to unleash a Holy War even worse than those we usually see in the Middle East.

[Clueless Northman]

He said ISIS had been using social media to get thousands of young radicalized Muslim men from Europe, the UK, Australia and the US to flock to Iraq and take up arms in their army of god.

And they don't even realise how helpful that could be for Western countries, the fools.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

It would?

Again, I was referring to the "people cheering for Israel this time". ;)

How bad is the video? I'm not into the macabre.

Some severed bodies, heads on spikes, and children of 11 who badly want to kill people in the name of God. It's still pretty tame, I think, but then again, this is only part 1.

Part 2 can be found here:

https://news.vice.com/video/the-islamic-state-part-2

Seems they have claimed their own sign.

[peterbound]

Let's see what happens in the next few days but I will rally behind the US. Unlike many other interventions in the past decades (most prominently 2003) this is what I call a "just cause".

It would be interesting to know from our fellow American users what the general moot looks like over there about this new engagment in Iraq?

Here virtually everyone and all media are cheering for the USAF to bomb the shit out of these maniacs.

'Merica checking in.

Glad to see its happening. Those pilots need to put all that training to use.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

'Merica checking in.

Glad to see its happening. Those pilots need to put all that training to use.

I also heard that many aren't all too happy, considering the fact that you only just left Iraq, if I am not mistaken. Though, I guess just bombing them using the fighters and the planes that are stationed there anyway wouldn't spark so much discontent.

I'm all for bombing them though. Or at least bringing them to a halt. I read somewhere that they took the biggest dam of Iraq today. They have large oil fields, they've got dams, they're continually acquiring new areas. All things you wouldn't want in the hands of a terrorist organization.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

How do we pry them off the damn and out of the cities they hold? Not with bombs I think.

[sToNED_CAT]

How do we pry them off the damn and out of the cities they hold? Not with bombs I think.

The idea is, that with American air support Iraqi and Kurds ground forces will be able to overcome ISIS resistance, and it is quite likely IMO. After all NATO was able to owerthrow Gadaffi just by air support of .rebel forces, who were already on verge of defeat.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

I also heard that many aren't all too happy, considering the fact that you only just left Iraq, if I am not mistaken. Though, I guess just bombing them using the fighters and the planes that are stationed there anyway wouldn't spark so much discontent.

I'm all for bombing them though. Or at least bringing them to a halt. I read somewhere that they took the biggest dam of Iraq today. They have large oil fields, they've got dams, they're continually acquiring new areas. All things you wouldn't want in the hands of a terrorist organization.

It's terribly simplistic to view the current conflict in Iraq as simply between a "terrorist organization" and the legitimate government of Iraq. There are a lot of Sunni nationalist groups finding under the banner of ISIS because the United States left Iraq with a corrupt, sectarian, Shiite government that has openly repressed the Sunni population. ISIS itself is, of course, quite fucking terrible, but the grievances they have against the Shiite, Maliki government are legitimate, as are the concerns many other Sunni nationalists have about living under that regime. I don't have any significant issue with the us bombing ISIS military targets to prevent them from engaging in genocide or ethnic cleansing, but I do think that continued attempts to force Iraq into a "one state" solution are terribly misguided, and likely to perpetuate continued sectarian conflict in the region.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LSS,

These stories from ViCE are pretty scary.

Does anyone think ISIS can establish a stable State?

[TerraPrime]

but I do think that continued attempts to force Iraq into a "one state" solution are terribly misguided, and likely to perpetuate continued sectarian conflict in the region.

The one-state solution may not be a feasible one, for sure, but a fractured ME that is segregated by ethno-religious lines doesn't seem to guarantee stability or progress, either. The feud between Sunnis and Shiites has run for centuries, and it is not clear to me that not forcing some of them into one country is going to significantly curb the violent acts from one side to the other in the region.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Commodore,

ISIS is brutal but it's not all Muslims.

[Commodore]

Try the Golden Rule. As a Christian, I imagine you are familiar with this.

Think about how you like to talk about Christianity vs. the objections you have when people who do not like Christianity and/or generalize about Christians talk about it. Try to talk about Islam with the same nuance.

I have no objections to anyone talking about anything.

The thing you notice in the the VICE videos is how forceful and dogmatic the Islamists are in advocating for their beliefs. Yet the criticism to combat it is so muted. Like "This is such a tragedy, why do you guys have to be so mean and cruel?"

I would be spending billions on psy-ops pumping anti-Islamic agitprop nonstop into these places by every means available, Tokyo Rose/Hanoi Hannah style. You have to counter what ISIS is doing to hearts and minds.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

The one-state solution may not be a feasible one, for sure, but a fractured ME that is segregated by ethno-religious lines doesn't seem to guarantee stability or progress, either. The feud between Sunnis and Shiites has run for centuries, and it is not clear to me that not forcing some of them into one country is going to significantly curb the violent acts from one side to the other in the region.

I never said it was a guarantee. Conflict happens. But it seems abundantly clear to me that a one-state solution in Iraq is simply not going to work. The United States has already supported a de-facto "two-ish state" solution by supporting Kurdish autonomy and offering the Kurds border protection via "no fly zones" and the like. And I think most of us would rather be a Kurd in Kurdistan than a Sunni in the Maliki Iraq or a Shiite in area under ISIS control.

The simple reality is, in historical terms, civic nationalism is fairly rare, and nationalism based upon ethnic/religious/cultural lines is much more common. We know, as a matter of historical reality, that Iraq was created without deference to the fact that a bunch of disparate and conflictual national identities were being smooshed together. And we also know that those disparate groups of people, after the retreat of European colonial governance, when they were held together, were held together by a brutal dictatorship, and afterwards, the presence of the US military.

If the one-state solution is broken in concept, and I think it is, the US ought to give it up as a goal, and push towards a workable three-state solution. In practice, that means that some territory conquered by ISIS is going to have to be ceded to Sunnis to control. Ideally, as there are many different Sunni nationalist groups fighting under the banner of ISIS that don't share the dream of a united caliphate, it would be possible to work out a solution where ISIS is not the dominant Sunni force in a new government. But at this point, that may not be possible.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

The word "genocide" has been thrown around too often in the last years but here we are life witnesses of the actions of a group which clearly has the extermination of "unwanted" people in its agenda ! And ISIS doesnt even hide their agenda or deeds at all, in contrast they make sure that all the world knows.

Sounds like Hamas' mantra too.

I'm stunned people are defending them here, just stunned.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

I would be spending billions on psy-ops pumping anti-Islamic agitprop nonstop into these places by every means available, Tokyo Rose/Hanoi Hannah style. You have to counter what ISIS is doing to hearts and minds.

This really baffles me. ISIS is a Muslim group. The Shiites, who in terms of population are the largest group being persecuted by ISIS, are also Muslims. What is "anti-Islamic agitprop" supposed to do in a conflict which is, in religious terms, internecine? In terms of "hearts and minds" re: the Sunni population, ISIS is out there providing governmental services, pensions and money for the poor. I suspect the US would have better luck with the local population if they were willing to invest more than "anti-Islamic agitprop" into the situation.