Ser Brandon Badwater Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Cuz LF is way cooler as a baddie. Also; Arya has a redemption ark? Threads about redemption Arcs. seems people pick a fave character and plot out how they will find themselves again. Whereas in real life the person you become is usually the person you are and for the most part always will be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry the Hair Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Whereas in real life the person you become is usually the person you are and for the most part always will be GRRM: "But it's all still what Faulkner called "the human heart in conflict with itself". He said that was the only thing worth writing about and I've always agreed with that. It's about the people, and the rest is just the furniture and the setting." http://www.empireonline.com/interviews/interview.asp?IID=1251 So it is reasonable to believe that some characters will get a redemption arc while others will go down a darker road. Though the only people I see getting one is Sandor Jaime (who will try and fail I think) and Theon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Brandon Badwater Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 GRRM: "But it's all still what Faulkner called "the human heart in conflict with itself". He said that was the only thing worth writing about and I've always agreed with that. It's about the people, and the rest is just the furniture and the setting." http://www.empireonline.com/interviews/interview.asp?IID=1251 So it is reasonable to believe that some characters will get a redemption arc while others will go down a darker road. Though the only people I see getting one is Sandor Jaime (who will try and fail I think) and Theon. Is this because of their story or because you like the characters? I said why not LF because in an indirect way he`s responsible for a lot more atrocities and some people believe he was a decent kid before Cats rejection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 All these redemption arcs. Theon, Arya,Hound,Jaime. Why not a LF redemption arc? Because you can't have a redemption arc if you're a complete bastard devoid of conscience. Is this because of their story or because you like the characters? I said why not LF because in an indirect way he`s responsible for a lot more atrocities and some people believe he was a decent kid before Cats rejection Yes, and Ramsay is misunderstood and a victim of Westerosi classism, if only he hadn't been called a bastard by anyone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Brandon Badwater Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Because you can't have a redemption arc if you're a complete bastard devoid of conscience. But you can if your a complete Bastard with a conscience, There`s hope for me yet :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry the Hair Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Is this because of their story or because you like the characters? I said why not LF because in an indirect way he`s responsible for a lot more atrocities and some people believe he was a decent kid before Cats rejection I only liked Sandor from the list. Also LF doesn't seem to want to change so nothing can be done there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry the Hair Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 But you can if your a complete Bastard with a conscience, There`s hope for me yet :eek: to quote Gandalf; "There never was much hope, just a fool's hope." :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Brandon Badwater Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I only liked Sandor from the list. Also LF doesn't seem to want to change so nothing can be done there. Does Sandor come across as wanting to change? Without using the gravedigger as an example. Not long before his death he tells Arya to finish off a young squire. Doesn`t sound like someone who has had an epiphany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry the Hair Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Does Sandor come across as wanting to change? Without using the gravedigger as an example. Not long before his death he tells Arya to finish off a young squire. Doesn`t sound like someone who has had an epiphany He was crying on his "deathbed" and his greatest regret seemed to be failing Sansa, granted he finishes that with some pretty dark words, but I interpreted that as him trying to get Arya to finish him off. So yeah he seems to want to change and be a better person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I, for one, don't believe Sandor has to kill Gregor to be "redeemed". In fact, I think an important part of his "redemption", if it can be called that, would be giving up basing his whole life around revenge on his brother (which I think he's done as part of putting away his "Hound" persona). Now, with that said, I think it would be interesting for Martin to then have them come into a confrontation anyway but for different reasons. How would that be for "subversion"? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Does Sandor come across as wanting to change? Without using the gravedigger as an example. Not long before his death he tells Arya to finish off a young squire. Doesn`t sound like someone who has had an epiphany Maybe. Why would one not consider the gravedigger? I don't believe in euthanasia myself, but I would hardly take it as proof of that a character is incapable of redemption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Brandon Badwater Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Maybe. Why would one not consider the gravedigger? I don't believe in euthanasia myself, but I would hardly take it as proof of that a character is incapable of redemption. Because the gravedigger is neither proven nor disproven to be Sandor . And this is about Sandor`s redemption Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Malenkirk Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Because the gravedigger is neither proven nor disproven to be Sandor . And this is about Sandor`s redemption If he's not the grave digger, he's almost certainly dead, which makes redemption a difficult proposition. But if he is the grave digger, he has (at least for the moment) laid down his arms and settled in a place where one has little to do but work and reflect. The theory that he is the grave digger is not one to bet against, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I, for one, don't believe Sandor has to kill Gregor to be "redeemed". In fact, I think an important part of his "redemption", if it can be called that, would be giving up basing his whole life around revenge on his brother (which I think he's done as part of putting away his "Hound" persona). Now, with that said, I think it would be interesting for Martin to then have them come into a confrontation anyway but for different reasons. How would that be for "subversion"? ;) Agree. Sandor has based his whole life trying to get revenge. It has consumed him. And it has not brought him any happiness. Letting go of his desire for revenge is a big step in his redemption. I think a big theme in Martin's work is that revenge usually does not end up bringing any happiness. And while I don't believe in the Cleganebowl, if Sandor were to confront Robert Strong, Gregor, or whatever he is, then I think it would only be in the case of Sandor letting his desire for revenge go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry the Hair Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Agree. Sandor has based his whole life trying to get revenge. It has consumed him. And it has not brought him any happiness. Letting go of his desire for revenge is a big step in his redemption. I think a big theme in Martin's work is that revenge usually does not end up bringing any happiness. And while I don't believe in the Cleganebowl, if Sandor were to confront Robert Strong, Gregor, or whatever he is, then I think it would only be in the case of Sandor letting his desire for revenge go. If they will meet up it'll probably be after Cersei's death; then he'll look at the pitiful creature/zombie his brother became and will pull a "you're not worth my time" type of line. Though secretly I was always hoping that the giant Sansa slays would be Ungregor. Just imagine Sandor's reaction if that were to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Brandon Badwater Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Agree. Sandor has based his whole life trying to get revenge. It has consumed him. And it has not brought him any happiness. Letting go of his desire for revenge is a big step in his redemption. I think a big theme in Martin's work is that revenge usually does not end up bringing any happiness. And while I don't believe in the Cleganebowl, if Sandor were to confront Robert Strong, Gregor, or whatever he is, then I think it would only be in the case of Sandor letting his desire for revenge go. When has he tried to get revenge? When he fought Gregor at the tourney after Greg attacked Loras he didn`t aim a blow at Greg`s unprotected head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 When has he tried to get revenge? When he fought Gregor at the tourney after Greg attacked Lancel he didn`t aim a blow at Greg`s unprotected head. Oh boy. Really? Do you even read what he says? Remember when he tells Arya that "he has a brother too." And I guess you missed the part when he tells Sansa how his faced got burned. I am not sure if the Lancel incident means what you think it means. I'd pair that incident with what Beric says about him, which is that he wouldn't kill people in their sleep. And his contempt at the idea of fighting "gnats". Also, did you miss what the EB had to say about him? ETA: Also, maybe it would have been better if I just said Sandor was "consumed by hatred" for his brother. Perhaps, that's more accurate. But, you'll probably deny that too, well, just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Agree. Sandor has based his whole life trying to get revenge. It has consumed him. And it has not brought him any happiness. Letting go of his desire for revenge is a big step in his redemption. I think a big theme in Martin's work is that revenge usually does not end up bringing any happiness. And while I don't believe in the Cleganebowl, if Sandor were to confront Robert Strong, Gregor, or whatever he is, then I think it would only be in the case of Sandor letting his desire for revenge go. Yes, I actually theorize that at least part of the reason Sandor didn't kill Gregor when he was defending Loras (which he most certainly could have - unprotected head - and no one would have said a thing against it) is because deep down he knew he wouldn't have anything to live for once he killed his brother. When one makes their whole life about accomplishing one thing they may not be in too much of a hurry to accomplish it because...then what? :dunno: No, I think it took Sandor hitting absolute rock bottom for him to give that up and to try starting over, in a sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Brandon Badwater Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Yes, I actually theorize that at least part of the reason Sandor didn't kill Gregor when he was defending Loras (which he most certainly could have - unprotected head - and no one would have said a thing against it) is because deep down he knew he wouldn't have anything to live for once he killed his brother. When one makes their whole life about accomplishing one thing they may not be in too much of a hurry to accomplish it because...then what? :dunno: No, I think it took Sandor hitting absolute rock bottom for him to give that up and to try starting over, in a sense. Really? You have a dream, an aspiration, and when opportunity presents itself in the heat of the moment with the goal in sight you think `nah too easy i`ll wait till tomorrow` It`s Sandor not Doran Martell and his 15 year plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Really? You have a dream, an aspiration, and when opportunity presents itself in the heat of the moment with the goal in sight you think `nah too easy i`ll wait till tomorrow` It`s Sandor not Doran Martell and his 15 year plan Yep, that's exactly what I think. I'll say it again: if one makes their entire existence about doing a single thing answering the question of "what will I do once I've accomplished it?" may be a daunting one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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