Sandor's "Redemption"

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Yep, that's exactly what I think. I'll say it again: if one makes their entire existence about doing a single thing answering the question of "what will I do once I've accomplished it?" may be a daunting one.

In the heat of a battle with Gregor, with adrenaline rushing. Sandor`s thinking `if i kill him i`ll have to find a new reason to live`? When not hacking down butcher`s boys or killing people do you think he borrows philosophical books from maester Pycelle

[Prince of the North]

In the heat of a battle with Gregor, with adrenaline rushing. Sandor`s thinking `if i kill him i`ll have to find a new reason to live`? When not hacking down butcher`s boys or killing people do you think he borrows philosophical books from maester Pycelle

Sure, why not? Sandor didn't really seem to get much worked up during that confrontation. It was Gregor who was out of his mind with rage while Sandor pretty easily deflected all his wild blows while not returning any. Also, your flippant example above of Sandor saying to himself "Nah, too easy" could quite possibly be spot on. You see, I don't think Sandor was motivated only be killing Gregor. As you said, I believe that very likely would have been "too easy". I think Sandor wanted to revenge himself on Gregor not only by ultimately killing him but by also possibly humiliating him, making him feel some of the pain/anguish he inflicted on Sandor, etc.

Also, consciously "thinking" he'll have to find a new reason to live is probably the wrong way to conceptualize what I'm getting at but I do believe, on some level, the feeling of not wanting it to be over too quickly because it's what his very life revolved around has always been present. Else, why didn't Sandor make a bee-line for Gregor long before or why didn't he, as you say, take the golden opportunity that presented itself at the Hand's Tourney? I think it's because he didn't only desire Gregor's death but a more specific kind of revenge. And, even then, Sandor didn't seem to try very hard to achieve it. I believe there's a reason for that ;)

[JoeMama]

If he's not the grave digger, he's almost certainly dead, which makes redemption a difficult proposition.

But if he is the grave digger, he has (at least for the moment) laid down his arms and settled in a place where one has little to do but work and reflect.

The theory that he is the grave digger is not one to bet against, IMO.

Agreed.

I'd stake a lot of money on the gravedigger = Sandor Clegane theory. Too compelling not to.

The Hound begged for mercy as he lay dying before Arya. The mercy of a clean, quick death.

Instead he found another sort of mercy. Atonement for his past sins, but as Sanador Clegane, no longer the Hound. (and ironically it's the antithesis of the Arya story arc, who's only interested in death at this point).

So the Hound got his wish in a roundabout way, a chance to end his suffering --paid for through deeds in life rather than as a corpse put to rest.

The septon knew a great deal too much about Sandor's entire life story for a man who found him half dead and delusional under a tree. Clearly, he was able to heal Sandor to hear out his life's crimes and his lengthy backstory.

I think his story line ends with Sandor quietly living out his days on the Quiet Isle, away from the death, violence, and killing that consumed him as the Hound. A fitting end for a man who wanted so badly to die, yet found peace through survival.

It's the closest thing you'll get to a kind fate for a character in an otherwise cruel, unjust land like Westeros.

[Le Cygne]

So becoming a celibate silent monk is what Sandor's story was all about? I don't think the text supports that at all. This is not a life he chose. Stranger is a window into Sandor's state of mind, he's refusing to be cut and polished into Driftwood, and is kept apart from the other animals.

He doesn't belong, that's what the author is telling the reader. And he didn't create an island full of people just to say farewell to a character. Nor have a main character dreaming about him all the way to her latest chapter, after he "died" sobbing about her. His story is not over...

Also, this is not celibate silent monk material:

"Do you like wine, little bird? True wine? A flagon of sour red, dark as blood, all a man needs. Or a woman."

[Mad Madam Mim]

Does Sandor come across as wanting to change? Without using the gravedigger as an example. Not long before his death he tells Arya to finish off a young squire. Doesn`t sound like someone who has had an epiphany

He was crying on his "deathbed" and his greatest regret seemed to be failing Sansa, granted he finishes that with some pretty dark words, but I interpreted that as him trying to get Arya to finish him off. So yeah he seems to want to change and be a better person.

Sandor also shows signs of wanting to change prior to this.

Maybe even more if I sold you back to the Lannisters like you fear, but I won’t. Even a dog gets tired of being kicked. If this Young Wolf has the wits the gods gave a toad, he’ll make me a lordling and beg me to enter his service. He needs me, though he may not know it yet. Maybe I’ll even kill Gregor for him, he’d like that.”

Suddenly Mr. FuckyourSerClegane is contemplating Lordship? Suddenly monsieur. MyBrotherMustDieButDidNotAImForHisHeadWhenIHadAChance is saying he will kill his brother? This is a a lot of idealistic thinking and it's like he is trying to convince not just Arya but himself that he could be a decent person.

[ChillyPolly]

So becoming a celibate silent monk is what Sandor's story was all about?

No. Becoming a "True Knight" is Sandor's ironic destiny.

Remember, the ideals of knighthood come from the Faith of the Seven.

[Mad Madam Mim]

Sandor is very prevalent in Sansa's chapters in the Vale. She dreams of him, compares other men to him, moons over a kiss that never happened. I have not seen a convincing explanation of why GRRM would keep mentioning Sandor unless he is due to make an appearance. "The Lord of Light is not done with Joffrey's Hound, it would seem." Unless the Lord of light's intentions was for Sandor to get raging drunk while on a quick jolly around the Riverlands, before living a dull life digging graves, I think there is more to come.

[Le Cygne]

And they can't even talk. He likes to talk, when he gets a chance, he likes stories as much as Sansa does. They could weave some nice stories together. In fact, they did. "Your sister sang me a sweet little song" and "Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound, as she had."

[Mad Madam Mim]

And they can't even talk. He likes to talk, when he gets a chance, he likes stories as much as Sansa does. They could weave some nice stories together. In fact, they did. "Your sister sang me a sweet little song" and "Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound, as she had."

:laugh: They are just as bad as each other! It is funny that Sandor's fantasy is the innocent song and Sansa is the one sexualsing their encounter. I suspect Sansa would wear the trousers in their relationship.

[ChillyPolly]

She dreams of him, compares other men to him, moons over a kiss that never happened.

The dream could be seen as a nightmare.

As for the kiss she "moons" about, the logical explanation is that it is a "confabulation" - a false memory created by the mind to replace a gap in memory. Why does she have a gap in memory? Psychological trauma of course. "Dissociative amnesia". Look at what happened INSTEAD of a kiss. She almost died of fright. She expected he was about to kiss her (because he was leaning in close), and then he did something even more terrifying. So she blocks out what he actually did, and remembers what she thought he was about to do instead.

But yes, I agree all this is leading up to something.

[ChillyPolly]

:laugh: They are just as bad as each other! It is funny that Sandor's fantasy is the innocent song and Sansa is the one sexualsing their encounter.

She's not really "sexualizing" anything. The encounter was sexual. She's just repressing something. And what she is repressing is the knife to her throat.

[Le Cygne]

:laugh: They are just as bad as each other! It is funny that Sandor's fantasy is the innocent song and Sansa is the one sexualsing their encounter. I suspect Sansa would wear the trousers in their relationship.

Quite simply, he turned her on. From the inspiration for their story:

Cocteau uses haunting images and bold Freudian symbols to suggest that emotions are at a boil in the subconscious of his characters. Consider the extraordinary shot where Belle waits at the dining table in the castle for the Beast's first entrance. He appears behind her and approaches silently. She senses his presence, and begins to react in a way that some viewers have described as fright, although it is clearly orgasmic. Before she has even seen him, she is aroused to her very depths, and a few seconds later, as she tells him she cannot marry--a Beast!--she toys with a knife that is more than a knife.

http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/great-movie-beauty-and-the-beast-1946

I think so, too. He was waiting for her faithfully that night. She thought about Lady, and there he was! For the millionth time.

And then GRRM hammers that in with the replay, the hound dog at the Fingers. He licks her face (dog kiss) and she pets him (cups his cheek):

Sansa found Bryen's old blind dog in her little alcove beneath the steps, and lay down next to him. He woke and licked her face. "You sad old hound," she said, ruffling his fur.

[Mad Madam Mim]

The dream could be seen as a nightmare.

As for the kiss she "moons" about, the logical explanation is that it is a "confabulation" - a false memory created by the mind to replace a gap in memory. Why does she have a gap in memory? Psychological trauma of course. "Dissociative amnesia". Look at what happened INSTEAD of a kiss. She almost died of fright. She expected he was about to kiss her (because he was leaning in close), and then he did something even more terrifying. So she blocks out what he actually did, and remembers what she thought he was about to do instead.

But yes, I agree all this is leading up to something.

I'm afraid I don't buy into the traumatic 'reconstructed memory'. I see no evidence that Sansa's narration of the event as it happened is to be questioned, it is later that she embellishes the event with a kiss. There was only one other person present at the time the 'unkiss' allegedly took place and that was Sandor. We do not have the benefit of his POV, but this is what he does say on the matter:

"And she sang for me. You didn’t know that, did you? Your sister sang me a sweet little song.”

"You ought to sing me a pretty little song, the way your sister did.”

"And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf."

Sandor does not say anything that contradicts Sansa's original description of the event and seems to corroborate that a song took place (but no kiss). Sandor is deliberately antagonising Arya and is very boastful of the song and he brings it up several times as a way to wind up Ayra. If something more traumatic took place, surely he would have mentioned it as a sure way to get the gift of mercy from Arya.

[Mad Madam Mim]

She's not really "sexualizing" anything. The encounter was sexual. She's just repressing something. And what she is repressing is the knife to her throat.

Sorry just read this so my above post probably dosn't apply. Yes she does repress the memory of the knife but I think we need to ask ourselves why she does that. If the event was so terrifying and she is so frightened of the hound, why would she invent a kiss of all things? Surely that would have been equally as terrifying and not a suitable replacement for the knife being held to her throat if what you say is true.

[SandorsRedemption]

You called....?

[Mad Madam Mim]

You called....?

What took you so long! We could have had this thread done and dusted aggggggges ago! :D

[Le Cygne]

Sorry just read this so my above post probably dosn't apply. Yes she does repress the memory of the knife but I think we need to ask ourselves why she does that. If the event was so terrifying and she is so frightened of the hound, why would she invent a kiss of all things? Surely that would have been equally as terrifying and not a suitable replacement for the knife being held to her throat if what you say is true.

Yep, ask any woman if she pretends to kiss a guy she doesn't want to kiss, and you'll get a big, resounding NO!

And Sansa herself sizes it up, what the fear is really about (like Roger Ebert says above, too), the dagger is about eroticism, and she's ready now:

I could close my eyes.... But that seemed more something Sansa would have done, that frightened girl. Alayne was an older woman, and bastard brave.

She closed her eyes before, she won't close them now... And at the end of La Belle et la Bete, Beauty says, "I like being afraid ... with you."

[Mad Madam Mim]

Yep, ask any woman if she pretends to kiss a guy she doesn't want to kiss, and you'll get a big, resounding NO!

And Sansa herself sizes it up, what the fear is really about (like Roger Ebert says above, too), the dagger is about eroticism, and she's ready now:

She closed her eyes before, she won't close them now... And at the end of La Belle et la Bete, Beauty says, "I like being afraid ... with you."

I love a good phallic symbol :leer:

Sansa embracing her sexuality is her way of maintaining agency and power over herself when the reality of her situation is that she is pretty much powerless. Her sexuality appears to be very much entwined with Sandor.

[DarkSister1001]

No. Becoming a "True Knight" is Sandor's ironic destiny.

Remember, the ideals of knighthood come from the Faith of the Seven.

Yes, yes YES!

[ChillyPolly]

I'm afraid I don't buy into the traumatic 'reconstructed memory'. I see no evidence that Sansa's narration of the event as it happened is to be questioned

I'm not questioning it. That's the version that contains the knife to Sansa's throat and a terrified paralysed Sansa praying for her life.

All I am saying is that she has blocked out that memory. And replaced it with a false memory. His lips pressed against hers, instead of his knife pressed against her throat.