Sandor's "Redemption"

[LongRider]

Annara Snow said "

Sandor didn't need the EB to realize that. He already knew it was wrong. He confessed what he found to be crimes/sins (at least those related to Arya, who he was confessing to) twice, after the fight with Beric and when he was asking Arya to kill him - and it included killing Mycah and laughing about it, standing by in his white cloak and letting the KGs beat Sansa at Joffrey's orders, and standing by when Ned was executed.

While that's true, he made his 'confession' under extreme duress. Taking SC to the QI with the EB will give SC time to contemplate these acts.

Sandor showed us he could do good by saving Sansa and Arya it's true. He also showed us he could be merciful when he gave 'the gift of mercy' to the dying knight. And, when he worked with the villages cutting timber and making that barricade (sorry, forgot what it's called) he showed us that he can become a part of a community.

That said, I'd hate to see SC emerge from the QI all pious and dopey like Lancel :ack:​ while calling his horse "Driftwood!" :thumbsdown:

[Le Cygne]

He owned up to Mycah repeatedly. He said he did it and that he didn't question orders before the fight. He could have lied and said he didn't know what she was talking about. Then he told Arya go ahead and kill him after the fight. Then he got upset when she brought him up again, you could tell that was a sore subject. Then he said it again and said kill him again.

Also, after a three book long gradual (and quite painful) period of character growth, he was injured and someone was nice to him. And he hasn't changed into someone else, he remembered who he used to be before his brother fucked him up. The Hound is dead, means he's Sandor again. Not Redeemed Guy (after completing Redemption Checklist).

[LongRider]

Also, after a three book long gradual (and quite painful) period of character growth, he was injured and someone was nice to him. And he hasn't changed into someone else, he remembered who he used to be before his brother fucked him up. The Hound is dead, means he's Sandor again. Not Redeemed Guy (after completing Redemption Checklist).

Good points Le Cygne and Arya found she couldn't bring herself to give Sandor the gift of mercy.

[Le Cygne]

Which saved his life! She said if she left, "I wouldn't have to kill him" = she didn't want to. And that was before he asked her to kill him.

Good girl, Arya, now we get to keep reading about him. :lol:

[PrettyPig]

I don't think Sandor will appear at Cersei's trial, I have a sneaking suspicion that (if it happens) Sandor will return after word that Sansa's been captured & put on trial.

^^This. GRRM has said that the UnKiss between the Hound and Sansa is significant in that it "sets the stage for a much more important lapse in memory" for Sansa. I think this lapse is going to be some kind of slipup that alerts folks to the fact that she is not Alayne Stone but Sansa Stark, and this fact is going to make its way back to KL and Cersei. (The show seems to have skipped the middleman and gone straight to the Big Reveal, but either way Cersei is bound to learn that Sansa is alive.)

Cersei sends Ser Robert to the Vale to hunt down the girl she believes killed her son, Sandor will learn of the threat on Sansa’s life and leave the Quiet Isle to save her (not realizing that her assassin is his reanimated bro). Sandor and Gregorenstein will meet up for Cleganebowl in the Vale.

My dream crackpot would follow that with: Sandor will be mortally wounded. Sansa will have her Eowyn “I am no man” moment and shove Robert Strong through the Moon Door ("that same maiden slaying a giant in a castle made of snow"). SanSan will have their kiss as Sandor dies and Sansa will go on to rule the Vale as a Virgin Queen a la Elizabeth I until the end of her days. *swoon*

[Le Cygne]

Elio said no Clegane Bowl. And a kiss then he dies then she stays a virgin? No fun before it's back to misery as usual? It's not like they haven't suffered enough. And there's all that bloody cloak/marriage bed symbolism, too.

Also, I think they already know that she's not Alayne Stone - that Myranda scene was very revealing. And the "more important" thing IS the unkiss itself.

The Lion's Paw / Lion's Tooth business, on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom... but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it's a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on.

[Talking Hodor]

The faith will bring a low-hanging rafter in as their champion, and said rafter will knock headless Gregor out cold. Then some sparrow will walk up to him and put him down with a sword longer than Gregor's arms.

[Annara Snow]

^^This. GRRM has said that the UnKiss between the Hound and Sansa is significant in that it "sets the stage for a much more important lapse in memory" for Sansa. I think this lapse is going to be some kind of slipup that alerts folks to the fact that she is not Alayne Stone but Sansa Stark, and this fact is going to make its way back to KL and Cersei. (The show seems to have skipped the middleman and gone straight to the Big Reveal, but either way Cersei is bound to learn that Sansa is alive.)

That's not what he said.

About Sansa's memory:

Sansa’s Memory

[Note: This mail has been edited for brevity.]

. . . this is an inconsistency with ASoS more than an outright error. In ASoS, Sansa thinks that the Hound kissed her before leaving her room and King's Landing. In ACoK, no kiss is mentioned in the scene, though Sansa did think that he was about to do so.

Well, not every inconsistency is a mistake, actually. Some are quite intentional. File this one under "unreliable narrator" and feel free to ponder its meaning. . .

[GRRM is asked about Sansa misremembering the name of Joffrey's sword.]

The Lion's Paw / Lion's Tooth business, on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom... but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it's a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on.

Sansa misremembering the name of the sword was supposed to set the stage for "a much more important lapse in memory" - the UnKiss. The UnKiss itself was not supposed to set the stage for any other lapse of memory.

[Talking Hodor]

^^This. GRRM has said that the UnKiss between the Hound and Sansa is significant in that it "sets the stage for a much more important lapse in memory" for Sansa. I think this lapse is going to be some kind of slipup that alerts folks to the fact that she is not Alayne Stone but Sansa Stark, and this fact is going to make its way back to KL and Cersei. (The show seems to have skipped the middleman and gone straight to the Big Reveal, but either way Cersei is bound to learn that Sansa is alive.)

Cersei sends Ser Robert to the Vale to hunt down the girl she believes killed her son, Sandor will learn of the threat on Sansa’s life and leave the Quiet Isle to save her (not realizing that her assassin is his reanimated bro). Sandor and Gregorenstein will meet up for Cleganebowl in the Vale.

My dream crackpot would follow that with: Sandor will be mortally wounded. Sansa will have her Eowyn “I am no man” moment and shove Robert Strong through the Moon Door ("that same maiden slaying a giant in a castle made of snow"). SanSan will have their kiss as Sandor dies and Sansa will go on to rule the Vale as a Virgin Queen a la Elizabeth I until the end of her days. *swoon*

I like the essentials of this theory, if not all the details. It would explain Sansa slaying a giant (probably with a low-hanging rafter - I really think this is Robert Strong's only weakness).

[PrettyPig]

That's not what he said.

About Sansa's memory:

Sansa misremembering the name of the sword was supposed to set the stage for "a much more important lapse in memory" - the UnKiss. The UnKiss itself was not supposed to set the stage for any other lapse of memory.

"You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom... but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it's a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on.

I take the bolded to mean that UnKiss is just another example of a lapse/unreliable narrator that will come to fruition later.

And yeah, Sansa once again facing a love-that-can-never-be isn't fun or fair, but GRRM seems to be pretty fond of not giving characters what they want in the whole love department. It would be poetic irony for her to have a knight that dies for her and provides the real-life song & story of heroism that she always dreamed of, but of course the flip side to that coin is that....the knight dies and the fair maiden has nothing left but a song and story.

[Annara Snow]

The faith will bring a low-hanging rafter in as their champion, and said rafter will knock headless Gregor out cold. Then some sparrow will walk up to him and put him down with a sword longer than Gregor's arms.

Elio said no Clegane Bowl. And a kiss then he dies then she stays a virgin? No fun before it's back to misery as usual? It's not like they haven't suffered enough. And there's all that bloody cloak/marriage bed symbolism, too.

Thank the gods. It's one of my least favorite theories.

And I really hope Sansa gets to have sex with someone she actually wants to and to enjoy it. She can go on to be a Virgin Queen... the way Elizabeth was. I don't believe for a second that Liz was really a virgin and I'm sure she was sleeping with Robert Dudley, at least (if not with others after his death). "The Virgin Queen" was just a fancy title because she was not married, so she had to officially be considered a virgin. Liz was smart not to marry, since 1) she would have been giving up a lot of her power to a man - another powerful political player, and 2) she wouldn't be allowed to marry someone she actually wanted but who was too lowborn for her (Dudley, or any of the other men she fancied, like Walter Raleigh) but would be expected to marry some prince for political reasons. Elizabeth's background was similar to Sansa in many respects - growing up under adverse circumstances after her mother was executed, proclaimed a bastard by Catholics including her older sister Mary, under danger during Mary's rule, having to pretend to be meek and submissive to survive, enduring sexual advances and possible sexual abuse by her stepfather Thomas Seymour, which her stepmother and Seymour's wife/Henry VIII's widow Catherine Parr allowed to go on, at the age of 14... It makes sense that she didn't want to give up her agency and power to a political marriage, and she was a smart, smart woman. She pretended she may get married as long as she was of the birthing age, and gave hope to several princely suitors, including the French king's brother (some think she actually liked him, so it's up in the air whether she actually contemplated marriage at some point; she definitely didn't contemplate it with such political suitors as Spanish king Philip II, who was her sister Mary's widower and her future enemy). The only issue was that she couldn't have children and produce an heir, which hung over her rule - until she neatly resolved it by proclaiming Scottish king James her heir on her deathbed. There are theories that she may have been unable to have children (some even think that Seymour got her pregnant and that she may have had a miscarriage or abortion) - or maybe she just chose not to.

I can see Sansa deciding not to marry but playing with the possibility with her suitors similarly to Elizabeth, but unlike Liz, I think Sansa may give birth to at least one bastard child, especially with all those bastard references in her chapters. If she does, will she get a cover story or will she own it as such, and will the social conventions of the majority of the Seven Kingdoms (minus Dorne) significantly change so she could do the latter?

The faith will bring a low-hanging rafter in as their champion, and said rafter will knock headless Gregor out cold. Then some sparrow will walk up to him and put him down with a sword longer than Gregor's arms.

More likely, some poor shmuck like Bonifer Hasty or Lancel will fight UnGregor and get killed, and Cersei will win her trial. The High Sparrow will not be displeased, since he doesn't really want to get Cersei executed, he's content to have her publicly shamed and her authority shaken, which was already accomplished with her admission of guilt of fornication with Lancel and the Kettleblacks and the Walk of Shame, which means she can't be powerful enough to endanger the Faith Militant's power. The Faith also currently has hold over the Tyrells because of the Margaery trial. The HS has played Cersei masterfully from the start.

[Annara Snow]

"You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom... but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it's a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on.

I take the bolded to mean that UnKiss is just another example of a lapse/unreliable narrator that will come to fruition later.

No, I don't think it has anything to do with any lapses of unreliable narrators in the future. It will be important because it's setting up Sansa's feelings and relationship with Sandor.

There's a whole bunch of ways to show that people are unreliable narrators, and it doesn't have to include Sansa thinking about Sandor in a bunch of ways, including the UnKiss.

[Le Cygne]

Elizabeth was very different than Sansa. And Sansa has a lot more freedom, as far as circumstances (no one to answer to) and because she wants different things (I don't think she wants to or will be queen). And just from a practical standpoint, someone has to keep the Stark line going. Plus there are a lot of mothering/fathering references in the text, even on the show.

Also, I think the bastard references (Alayne, Mya, Jon) are more indicative that she will break free of expectations, she's seeing things from another perspective, and that frees up her ways of thinking.

[PrettyPig]

And I really hope Sansa gets to have sex with someone she actually wants to and to enjoy it. She can go on to be a Virgin Queen... the way Elizabeth was. I don't believe for a second that Liz was really a virgin and I'm sure she was sleeping with Robert Dudley, at least (if not with others after his death). "The Virgin Queen" was just a fancy title because she was not married, so she had to officially be considered a virgin. Liz was smart not to marry, since 1) she would have been giving up a lot of her power to a man - another powerful political player, and 2) she wouldn't be allowed to marry someone she actually wanted but who was too lowborn for her (Dudley, or any of the other men she fancied, like Walter Raleigh) but would be expected to marry some prince for political reasons. Elizabeth's background was similar to Sansa in many respects - growing up under adverse circumstances after her mother was executed, proclaimed a bastard by Catholics including her older sister Mary, under danger during Mary's rule, having to pretend to be meek and submissive to survive, enduring sexual advances and possible sexual abuse by her stepfather Thomas Seymour, which her stepmother and Seymour's wife/Henry VIII's widow Catherine Parr allowed to go on, at the age of 14... It makes sense that she didn't want to give up her agency and power to a political marriage, and she was a smart, smart woman. She pretended she may get married as long as she was of the birthing age, and gave hope to several princely suitors, including the French king's brother (some think she actually liked him, so it's up in the air whether she actually contemplated marriage at some point; she definitely didn't contemplate it with such political suitors as Spanish king Philip II, who was her sister Mary's widower and her future enemy). The only issue was that she couldn't have children and produce an heir, which hung over her rule - until she neatly resolved it by proclaiming Scottish king James her heir on her deathbed. There are theories that she may have been unable to have children (some even think that Seymour got her pregnant and that she may have had a miscarriage or abortion) - or maybe she just chose not to.

I can see Sansa deciding not to marry but playing with the possibility with her suitors similarly to Elizabeth, but unlike Liz, I think Sansa may give birth to at least one bastard child, especially with all those bastard references in her chapters. If she does, will she get a cover story or will she own it as such, and will the social conventions of the majority of the Seven Kingdoms (minus Dorne) significantly change so she could do the latter?

This is where I was going with the Liz 1 ref....I love Elizabeth's backstory, her sexuality - or rather, the intrigue of her sexuality - literally becoming the foundation of her strength as a ruler and manipulating it to become one of the most powerful and enduring monarchs in history, all while quietly serving her personal indulgences, most of them quite selfish. I would love Sansa's arc to be this so much. And she's a redhead to boot!

[Harry the Hair]

I'm under the impression that Robert Strong is going to be even more dangerous than the Mountain, but I could be wrong. Otherwise I would consider them about even.

My guess is that he will be as dangerous as Cersei since it's hinted that he has no head (so he can't make any decisions of his own); basically he does what Cersei wants him to do... now weather Cersei is more dangerous than Gregor is a complicated question, depends how crazy she gets. I think that at some point her rage over Margaery Tyrell would get so bad that she would kill Tommen and once that happens she'll be nuttier than Aerys.

[Crow's eye in the sky]

I'm posing a hypothetical here. Let's assume:

a.) the gravedigger does turn out to be the Hound

b.) he's somehow recruited by the faith to fight his un-brother in the trial by combat

c.) he wins in true underdog fashion

I'm not saying I buy into this theory. However, if it were to happen, would you even consider it redemption? The Mountain already got what was coming to him via Oberyn, and is now portrayed as a lifeless monster. To me, killing Franken-Gregor would be the equivalent of pissing on his grave. Hell, it might even put him out of his misery.

If unHound and unGregor meet, I would expect unGregor to end up in the Riverlands for this to happen.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Why does he need a redemption story? He`s confessed his sins thats good enough for me and Elder Brother

[Crow's eye in the sky]

Why does he need a redemption story? He`s confessed his sins thats good enough for me and Elder Brother

Some folks believe that the only way that Sandor will redeem himself, is by fighting unGregor (which is kind of nuts when you think about it).

Honestly though, the whole trend of people who were supposedly dead, but later coming into the spotlight is getting a wee bit moldy after dance. It would be better for the story if he just stays where he is and lives out his days the way that Daemon Targaryen supposedly did. Let sleeping dogs lie.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Some folks believe that the only way that Sandor will redeem himself, is by fighting unGregor (which is kind of nuts when you think about it).

Honestly though, the whole trend of people who were supposedly dead, but later coming into the spotlight is getting a wee bit moldy after dance. It would be better for the story if he just stays where he is and lives out his days the way that Daemon Targaryen supposedly did. Let sleeping dogs lie.

All these redemption arcs. Theon, Arya,Hound,Jaime. Why not a LF redemption arc?

[Harry the Hair]

All these redemption arcs. Theon, Arya,Hound,Jaime. Why not a LF redemption arc?

Cuz LF is way cooler as a baddie. Also; Arya has a redemption ark?