Bad Writing

[Fat Mac]

Can I say that Quentyn's arc was useless, since we know how it ended?

Not really. Quentyn's death will probably be vitally important in how Dorne acts in the next couple books.

[GreatGatsby]

Lol, these people will never allow criticism of GRRM. Even after all the books are completed. "You cant criticize him, the movie isnt out yet!".

[Gendry_Goldeneyes]

GRRM is a fundamentally different writer today than he was in SoS. So the people saying "Oh, he is just on a slump" need to stop because whatever flaws present in Dance and Feast will no doubt be in WoW (as seen be sample chapters).

you forgot the part where those sample chapters were moved from Dance and Feast

[sj4iy]

Not really. Quentyn's death will probably be vitally important in how Dorne acts in the next couple books.

...because Dorne is going to do what, exactly? It's not like anyone but Quentyn got himself killed. Unless Doran was sending him to purposely get killed to start some sort of war, which seems unlikely since he wants to take down the Lannisters. It just makes no sense.

[Arakan]

Lol, these people will never allow criticism of GRRM. Even after all the books are completed. "You cant criticize him, the movie isnt out yet!".

Well, that is just a provocative non-statement. Is that really necessary to generalize in such a manner? I dont know who "these people" are.

[ChillyPolly]

I can't speak for him, but im the type of person who goes through the entire series before I pass judgement on whether the final product is good or bad.

Haha! But according to Neil Gaiman, the fact that you want to read the next volume, proves that GRRM is a great writer (for making you want to keep reading) and that you are a bad reader (for wanting to keep reading).

[the trees have eyes]

Translation- GRRM is god, how dare us plebs criticize his work. Can't you understand everything is part of a master plan?

And lol at that bolded "his story" part. So what? Does that mean we can't comment on it?

GRRM apologists will always comment on how "he's not your bitch". People never said he is, but you certainly seem to be his.

That's a pretty ugly post. You know what an apologist is, right?

And liking a story or product and saying so doesn't make anyone a "bitch".....

The only part of all this I agree with is that is is hard to judge a particular plot thread until we see where it fits into the whole. But for how long must we reserve judgment? There is no whole at present, and perhaps will never be a whole. Until then, GRRM has no particular right to be worshiped as a Great Author, and/or declared to be the "American Tolkien" (or whatever) on the basis of blind faith alone. Ultimately, an author is judged by his readers. This is true even when, as here, his readers are forced to judge him on what may be less-than-complete evidence. Sorry. That's just the way it is.

If you had a particular plot thread in mind I might agree with you. But as a general principle? No way!

I'd say based on the huge popularity and commercial success of ASOIAF that judgment has already been given.

The bar has been set very high and if the rest of the series doesn't match the opening books then readers will be disappointed, yes, but that doesn't erase how brilliant and well received the first novels were.

My main concern is that with A second dance of dragons and the War for the Dawn yet to come he really needs 10 books not 7 and that he'll rush things and cut stuff out.

Chilly Polly - exactly, it is really no different than criticizing a musicians music. You can hate the first cd, but of course there will be those who will pull the "you need to wait for their entire career to unfold before you can...."

If you hated A Game of Thrones you wouldn't have read the other books or be a member of this forum. You loved it and you're hooked.

Can I say that Quentyn's arc was useless, since we know how it ended?

No, because how Dorne will react to the news is going to matter. On a lesser note he freed the other two dragons and introduced us to the Tattered Prince sub-plot but this could have been worked into in another POV.

GRRM is a fundamentally different writer today than he was in SoS. So the people saying "Oh, he is just on a slump" need to stop because whatever flaws present in Dance and Feast will no doubt be in WoW (as seen be sample chapters).

This is a valid possibility. Sit down and write something today and then attempt to do the same thing 20 year later: it won't come out the same. People change over time and an actor would not play a part the same way or a musician compose music the same way after that interval of time.

Whether GRRM writes less effectively because he writes differently is a matter of opinion. The main complaint is that he takes too long to write and doesn't move the story forward enough in AFFC or ADWD. On first read of AFFC when I was avid to know "what happened next" I felt disappointed. On a reread I loved it. Part of the judgment on AFFC and ADWD is due to people waiting years and then not getting enough of a fix for their habit.

Only time will tell whether it meanders like Jordan's WOT or whether GRRM will bring the plotlines together and pick it up after the Meereenese knot and the abandoned 5 year gap. I'm cautiously optimistic.

[rmholt]

Bad writing? Have you read other F/SF? Have you written any? This guy can creat a character as fast as he kills them. He uses devices like multiple POV, history via characters talking, traveling pairs or groups, different timelines, repetition, mystery, reliable and unreliable foreshadowing - OMG. He has made the Essos land and characters feel foreign with difficult names and obscure characters. We know very little about her seneschal exc he's prob not Varys - he's small and damp - or even Hizdahr. I think this is on purpose. That's good writing - like a character you can't stand (I'm thinking George Costanza) bc the character is written, directed, and acted to BE unlikeable.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Haha! But according to Neil Gaiman, the fact that you want to read the next volume, proves that GRRM is a great writer (for making you want to keep reading) and that you are a bad reader (for wanting to keep reading).

I think there is a difference between bad writing and a bad writer. On one hand the person could be a great writer, with a few moments of substandard composition. The latter is just plain horrible with little to no redeeming qualities.

[Fat Mac]

...because Dorne is going to do what, exactly? It's not like anyone but Quentyn got himself killed. Unless Doran was sending him to purposely get killed to start some sort of war, which seems unlikely since he wants to take down the Lannisters. It just makes no sense.

Look at how Dorne will take the news.

Doran sends Quentyn on mission to Meereen to ally with Dany, and use her dragons. Quentyn gets burned by dragons, after he gets spurned by Dany.

It's not gonna matter how Quentyn died, or who's fault it was. The Dornish are a vengeance-seeking lot, and they're not going to ally with the woman who, whether directly or not, caused the death of their Prince.

Plus we already know

Arianne already has a mixed view of Dany, given the story of Viserys' death.

[sj4iy]

Look at how Dorne will take the news.

Doran sends Quentyn on mission to Meereen to ally with Dany, and use her dragons. Quentyn gets burned by dragons, after he gets spurned by Dany.

It's not gonna matter how Quentyn died, or who's fault it was. The Dornish are a vengeance-seeking lot, and they're not going to ally with the woman who, whether directly or not, caused the death of their Prince.

Plus we already know

Arianne already has a mixed view of Dany, given the story of Viserys' death.

I still don't see how this furthers their goal of eradicating the Lannisters.

[Red Tiger]

Haha! But according to Neil Gaiman, the fact that you want to read the next volume, proves that GRRM is a great writer (for making you want to keep reading) and that you are a bad reader (for wanting to keep reading).

No, you're not getting what im saying. When I say see it through to the end, im saying that I FORCE myself to keep reading. I fell asleep numerous times reading ADWD and I finished it simply because id already spent my money on it. It's buyers remorse if anything. Matter of fact, my friends often kept telling me to keep going, talking about the awesomeness up North.

[UnmaskedLurker]

No, you're not getting what im saying. When I say see it through to the end, im saying that I FORCE myself to keep reading. I fell asleep numerous times reading ADWD and I finished it simply because id already spent my money on it. It's buyers remorse if anything. Matter of fact, my friends often kept telling me to keep going, talking about the awesomeness up North.

Maybe I am being overly optimistic, but I think once GRRM gets done filling in the "five-year gap" story lines, and starts working toward the endgame, the action will start moving at a better clip and the plotting will be tighter. The chapters of WOW that would be such chapters likely were not among those released. On the other hand, GRRM possibly has just gotten way too self-indulgent as he has gotten older and we will all suffer through mediocre pacing and prose for the rest of the series. I certainly hope not.

[Fat Mac]

I still don't see how this furthers their goal of eradicating the Lannisters.

They support the winning king=they have the influence to get rid of the Lannisters

[sj4iy]

They support the winning king=they have the influence to get rid of the Lannisters

...and how does Quentyn getting crispy fried further that ambition?

[Red Tiger]

Maybe I am being overly optimistic, but I think once GRRM gets done filling in the "five-year gap" story lines, and starts working toward the endgame, the action will start moving at a better clip and the plotting will be tighter. The chapters of WOW that would be such chapters likely were not among those released. On the other hand, GRRM possibly has just gotten way too self-indulgent as he has gotten older and we will all suffer through mediocre pacing and prose for the rest of the series. I certainly hope not.

I think that's kinda the problem, he doesn't seem to have a real ending planned, or rather he doesn't stick to his plans. At first this series was supposed to be 3 books, then he tacks on two more books and then I read an interview where he describes his writing process.

“I think there are two types of writers, the architects and the gardeners. The architects plan everything ahead of time, like an architect building a house. They know how many rooms are going to be in the house, what kind of roof they're going to have, where the wires are going to run, what kind of plumbing there's going to be. They have the whole thing designed and blueprinted out before they even nail the first board up. The gardeners dig a hole, drop in a seed and water it. They kind of know what seed it is, they know if planted a fantasy seed or mystery seed or whatever. But as the plant comes up and they water it, they don't know how many branches it's going to have, they find out as it grows. And I'm much more a gardener than an architect.”

In theory this can go on forever. Now I respect his 'gardener' type writing, but the giant flaw here is that he himself might not be clear about how and when he wants to end it.

[Fat Mac]

...and how does Quentyn getting crispy fried further that ambition?

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Quentyn was necessary because Doran's main goal after Viserys' death was to get a Dany-Quentyn marriage going. Once that turned to shit, Quentyn became an important character because now Dorne's plans will likely change.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I think that's kinda the problem, he doesn't seem to have a real ending planned, or rather he doesn't stick to his plans. At first this series was supposed to be 3 books, then he tacks on two more books and then I read an interview where he describes his writing process.

“I think there are two types of writers, the architects and the gardeners. The architects plan everything ahead of time, like an architect building a house. They know how many rooms are going to be in the house, what kind of roof they're going to have, where the wires are going to run, what kind of plumbing there's going to be. They have the whole thing designed and blueprinted out before they even nail the first board up. The gardeners dig a hole, drop in a seed and water it. They kind of know what seed it is, they know if planted a fantasy seed or mystery seed or whatever. But as the plant comes up and they water it, they don't know how many branches it's going to have, they find out as it grows. And I'm much more a gardener than an architect.”

In theory this can go on forever. Now I respect his 'gardener' type writing, but the giant flaw here is that he himself might not be clear about how and when he wants to end it.

I agree that GRRM a a gardener and not an architect is a potential problem--but that problem was most acute when GRRM decided he had to write the details of the 5-year gap rather than just blowing past them as he intended. While he is a gardener and not an architect, he has a pretty good idea of where each character ends up in the end and how they must get there, and at some point he has to start writing toward that end. I tend to think, based on what we have been told about the 5-year gap issue, that about 1/3 to 1/2 way through WOW, GRRM will start working toward the endgame, as he will have satisfied himself that he laid out all the predicate information he needs to make the endgame work. Or you could be right that he just has fallen in love with adding more details and texture and cannot stop himself (the self-indulgent option I suggested might be possible in my prior post). We should have a pretty good idea from WOW which of these alternatives plays itself out.

[ChillyPolly]

I'd say based on the huge popularity and commercial success of ASOIAF that judgment has already been given.

The ash-heaps and graveyards of forgotten literary failure are littered with commercial successes of their day. But whether its current commercial success withstands the test of time or not, the individual is always entitled to disagree, based on his or her own judgment. A reader is never required to be a sheep or a lemming.

The bar has been set very high and if the rest of the series doesn't match the opening books then readers will be disappointed, yes, but that doesn't erase how brilliant and well received the first novels were.

Mervyn Peak failed to finish his GORMENGHAST series, but despite this many feel the first two volumes (but perhaps not the third) together withstand the test of time as a standalone work. The TV series LOST *did* finish (and was a commercial success), but many loyal viewers did indeed feel that that this "ending" did indeed erase the supposed "brilliance" of the early episodes. Whether ASOIAF is ultimately closer to GORMENGHAST than to LOST, or lies somewhere in between, if it fails to sufficiently resolve enough of the myriad threads and mysteries that have its loyal readers hooked, is ultimately going to be a matter of individual opinion.

It is far easier to create mystery and intrigue than to resolve it in a satisfactory manner. The ending of many a long-running series has demonstrated this.

If you hated A Game of Thrones you wouldn't have read the other books or be a member of this forum. You loved it and you're hooked.

I am hooked. I have invested time in this series, and want to know where it is headed. But whether or not I "loved it" is up in the air, and I reserve the right to throw it across the room in disgust when I reach the final page. I for one am reserving judgment. I do not necessarily require that the series be finished, but GRRM certainly needs to resolve more than he has done so far, for me to recommend this series to anyone.

[Red Tiger]

I agree that GRRM a a gardener and not an architect is a potential problem--but that problem was most acute when GRRM decided he had to write the details of the 5-year gap rather than just blowing past them as he intended. While he is a gardener and not an architect, he has a pretty good idea of where each character ends up in the end and how they must get there, and at some point he has to start writing toward that end. I tend to think, based on what we have been told about the 5-year gap issue, that about 1/3 to 1/2 way through WOW, GRRM will start working toward the endgame, as he will have satisfied himself that he laid out all the predicate information he needs to make the endgame work. Or you could be right that he just has fallen in love with adding more details and texture and cannot stop himself (the self-indulgent option I suggested might be possible in my prior post). We should have a pretty good idea from WOW which of these alternatives plays itself out.

I hope you're right, brother. I love this series, else I wouldn't spend so much time on these boards, but in terms of focus these last 2 books are a step down. I still don't understand why these 2 books couldn't have simply been merged into 1 big one, a la Storm of Swords. You can easily cut out some chapters and have the same amount of character development.