Plot holes (Real ones, not things you don't like)

[Hrafntýr]

It's a minor detail, but Ned's attitude regarding Bran's climbing obsession really bugs me. What kind of parent would tell his 6 year old (maybe younger) son "Son, since you want it so much, I am totally fine with you risking your life for hours every single day by climbing really tall walls and buildings where one slip-up means death or becoming a cripple. No biggie, just don't let your mother see you."

It's not a plot hole, though, and it's paralleled by Ned's decision to let Arya have "dancing lessons" once he realizes that it's in her nature. I see it as demonstrating a different view of parenting on Ned's part, one that recognizes differences in personality and ability and allows them to develop (within reason), rather than completely controlling every aspect of personality development to make the child conform to some norm or to be a total instrument of the parent's will.

I've got a RL friend whose son was like Bran always climbing and undertaking incredible feats of balance. She finally decided to embrace it, bought him grappling hooks for his 7th birthday!

[SeanF]

Stockholm Syndrome. IMHO.

Also, she made the best of what she had. The only other option was to live with bitterness and hatred towards a man she would be tied to for the rest of her life. I don't condone her feelings towards him but I certainly understand. See it a lot with women who have experienced domestic violence. It goes a lot deeper than the simple thing outsiders see: abuser and victim. Humans are more complex than that.

I don't find that so odd. She's been released from a life of physical, emotional, and possibly sexual abuse at the hands of Viserys. She also experiences a supernatural dream.

Had she been brought up as a princess in Kings Landing, then to be sold to Drogo would be an utter nightmare for her. Compared to life with Viserys, it's an improvement.

Had Drogo been like other Khals, though, and made her have sex with his bloodriders, and beaten her, I imagine she probably would have killed herself.

[Lord Defiance]

I know. Again, the issue is not that Robert was killed or that Cersei was behind it, but the incredibly convenient timing so that the Lannisters can actually "win" and Ned can be blamed for it. I'll admit it's not a plothole really, and rather contrived to move along the plot. My biggest gripe is that we're supposed to believe it's Ned's fault. That's just ridiculous. Especially when we already know they planned for Robert's death long before Ned got involved.

Why do we have to believe it was Ned's fault? The only possible way that could be true is if you believe Varys when he says "Your mercy killed the king."

But in my mind, that's like people blaming Bran for starting the WoTFKs for spying on Jaime and Cersei, when really it was Lysa and LF who poisoned Jon.

Ned was just a convenience and a means to an end. Had Ned NOT confronted Cersei, they would have finished Robert off another way at some point in time.

It's like someone above mentioned they had already tried to get him killed, like getting him drunk and to fight in the melee at the hand's tourney. I'm sure there were others that we don't know about. Who's to say Cersei didn't almost kill him in his sleep once or twice? But then thought better of it.

[sj4iy]

Does everyone knows a plot hole really is?? So far no one showed any... It feels that in the Internet everyone knows about narrative construction better than the writers...

Just because some people can make up some reason, no matter how absurd, to make something make sense, doesn't mean it's not a plot hole.

[Lord Defiance]

Just because some people can make up some reason, no matter how absurd, to make something make sense, doesn't mean it's not a plot hole.

Sometimes, what we see as a plot hole in a book is a real life issue. We have had plenty of leaders in all countries of the world that make stupid decisions with no motive or an imaginary one.

There are also events that happen that we can't always explain, but have to accept. Whether it's random chance, nature, or anything really.

A few of the things said here I could maybe agree with but some, like Balon being stupid, is something that does happen.

[The Wolves]

I don't know of you would call this a plot hope but

Ned leaving Winterfell while Bran was in a coma, it just seemed weird that Ned would think he had to honor Robert's request as Hand even though his son was in a coma.

[HexMachina]

I don't know of you would call this a plot hope but

Ned leaving Winterfell while Bran was in a coma, it just seemed weird that Ned would think he had to honor Robert's request as Hand even though his son was in a coma.

Related; why not send Arya and Sansa, or.at the very least Arya (since Sansa was betrothed) back to Winterfell after the incident with Joffrey?

[SeanF]

Sometimes, what we see as a plot hole in a book is a real life issue. We have had plenty of leaders in all countries of the world that make stupid decisions with no motive or an imaginary one.

There are also events that happen that we can't always explain, but have to accept. Whether it's random chance, nature, or anything really.

A few of the things said here I could maybe agree with but some, like Balon being stupid, is something that does happen.

Agreed. Balon was greedy. He saw the chance to grab land from the North, and avenge himself on Ned.

Allying with the North, to achieve indpendence, would have been the the better long-term strategy. But, many people don't think in the long term.

[ache]

Another thing that bothers me is Cat being unaware of Lysa's pregnancy and abortion.

This bothers me too. The maids would have suspected almost immediately, yet Cat never finds out? The rumour would've been around well before Hoster found out.

Hoster Tully doing and saying nothing during Littlefinger's meteoric, Arryn sponsored rise.

Tyrion not telling Tywin about Littlefinger setting him up and Tywin never asking about it.

[sj4iy]

Sometimes, what we see as a plot hole in a book is a real life issue. We have had plenty of leaders in all countries of the world that make stupid decisions with no motive or an imaginary one.

There are also events that happen that we can't always explain, but have to accept. Whether it's random chance, nature, or anything really.

A few of the things said here I could maybe agree with but some, like Balon being stupid, is something that does happen.

This isn't real life. This is fiction. If I have to just 'accept' something because there's no reasonable explanation for it happening, then it's a plot hole. Some people keep saying 'It can't be a plot hole because I can come up with an explanation for it, no matter how tortured!', but that's not how it works. Anyone, with enough time and thought, can explain away ANYTHING...but that doesn't mean they're right or that it's still not a plot hole. People can act stupidly, but if it is not in their nature TO act stupid, then it's a plot hole. Like Doran...who has been described by others (and himself) as a great schemer and planner. Well, so far all of his schemes have gone to shit because they weren't very well thought out to begin with. If Martin doesn't have some reasonable explanation in the next books to prove that all of these terrible plans were part of a bigger, more masterful plan, then it's a plot hole.

I agree with the others about Balon, as well. He worked against his own best interests, and that's not the type of character he is.

[messem]

I am not sure if this qualifies as a plot hole (probably not) but I've always disliked the Dany/Khal Drogo relationship. It's utterly ridiculous that Dany goes from being raped on a daily basis to suddenly 'loving' Khal Drogo. One of the reason why I dislike Dany's character a lot.

It isn't. The women of aWoIaF are prepared the marry and f**k someone their whole life. They do not consider this rape.

[messem]

Tyrion not telling Tywin about Littlefinger setting him up and Tywin never asking about it.

For me the biggest one. All the "LF is the greatest player" yada yada is because Tyrion does forgot/ignored the whole situation.

[messem]

I agree with the others about Balon, as well. He worked against his own best interests, and that's not the type of character he is.

Yeah, no. Balon had a beef with the Starks. His actions did not come out of the blue.

[Sullen]

Agreed. Balon was greedy. He saw the chance to grab land from the North, and avenge himself on Ned.

Allying with the North, to achieve indpendence, would have been the the better long-term strategy. But, many people don't think in the long term.

Declaring independence in any situation is a terrible long-term strategy for Balon. The best thing to do would have been to attack the North without crowning himself, declaring for whoever is most likely to win the Throne at the time and ask to keep the Northern West Coast in exchange for his good service in putting down the Northern rebels.

[kiasyd]

It's impressive there's still no real plotholes in this thread, rather these are just issues of suspension of disbelief and perception.

ASOIAF is a massive and obscenely complicated series, yet there's not one real plotholes I've seen

:agree:

Agreed. Theon's stupidity, Cersei's plotting, Stark kid-raising skills, etc. Can all be enumerated as suspension of disbelief or perception issues, but I haven't seen a real plot hole listed here yet.

[sj4iy]

Jon's decision to go after Ramsay Snow at the end of book 5. It's inexplicable. What is Jon's plan, exactly? It's not like he's going to penetrate Winterfell with a handful of wildlings or defeat Ramsay's forces with them. It really, really makes no sense. It's also something that ADwD Jon wouldn't do...I could see AGoT Jon doing it, even ASoS Jon doing it...but Lord Commander Jon? He doesn't make stupid, rash decisions anymore. He's a planner, who has over and over again refused to break his vows for his family. The betrayal could have worked just as well with the 4 men stabbing him over his other decisions about the Wildlings, there was no need to make Jon do something incredibly senseless and stupid for no discernible reason.

[ache]

For me the biggest one. All the "LF is the greatest player" yada yada is because Tyrion does forgot/ignored the whole situation.

Yes, for Tyrion to just forget is pretty ridiculous. For Tywin to not bother asking about the details of a direct strike against a member of House Lannister? Bullshit. That whole scheme should have brought about Littlefinger's downfall, it was a stupid, stupid move any way you look at it. But..plothole.

[Ser Eric]

Yes, for Tyrion to just forget is pretty ridiculous. For Tywin to not bother asking about the details of a direct strike against a member of House Lannister? Bullshit. That whole scheme should have brought about Littlefinger's downfall, it was a stupid, stupid move any way you look at it. But..plothole.

Which incident are you referring to here?

[ache]

Which incident are you referring to here?

Littlefinger setting Tyrion up as the one who arranged to have Bran murdered. Tyrion knows Lf set him up yet never tells anyone.

[butterbumps!]

The Iron Bank loan Jon gets isn't a plothole.

In addition to the fact that the Gift is productive land and might be open for seizure, the Watch has a pretty major resource at its disposal: trees. The Braavosi heavily rely on importing wood for their ships, and the Watch is supposed to be cutting down all those trees near the Wall anyway. It kind of sorts itself out.

I'd also point out that the Braavosi banker is looking to invest in Stannis, and as of that point in time, the Wall is Stannis' base of locations. It's clear to anyone that Jon's a major asset to Stannis, at least in terms of enabling him to set up shop at the Wall, so helping Jon maintain the Wall through a loan helps secure the IB's investment in Stannis.

And, I guess, I wouldn't discount the possibility that Jon may have explained what was actually going on beyond the Wall. We're talking about a guy from Braavos, a nation founded to escape from sorcery and slavery, and which has bred its own brand of magic via the Faceless. They aren't strangers to magic, and might not summarily disbelieve what Jon might tell him. The whole issue of Others raising the dead as thralls would probably hit home in terms of the likeness to slavery.